An Aside Regarding Homosexuality

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Balerion, Mar 2, 2014.

  1. Bells Staff Member

    Perhaps if they didn't have people like you condemning them, and saying that it was wrong, then this would not be so much of an issue within the LGBT community.
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  3. Balerion Banned Banned

    Can someone explain why he's a moderator? How is it right that the arbiter of proper behavior in a section of this website?
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  5. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

    Really? Such as? Enlighten us...
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  7. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

    My apologies, assuming this is a list of reasons that you "condemn lesbian homosexuality". Please back up these assertions with links that explain more than correlation, I want to see causation. Explain how lesbian homosexuality causes "higher rates of mental illness", for example. Just start with that one since you time is so limited and the real world keeps demanding so much of you... Can't wait.
  8. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

    Syne would have us believe that being gay in and of itself causes mental illness. I'd like some citations on that given the APA officially removed homosexuality from the Diagnostic Manual some 3 decades ago. But this is typical of Syne's tactics: cherrypicking science articles for lone statements which seem to support his position. There's simply no evidence being gay causes mental illness. What DOES cause higher rates of anxiety and depression and suicide among gay people are people like Syne who seek to condemn them for simply being who they are. Bigots who demonize gay people as mentally-disturbed and diseased sex-addicts. I've never even heard of anyone condemning a class of people for being afflicted with mental illness. What kind mentally-disturbed attitude is that? Do we condemn the poor for having higher rates of mental illness? Or military vets? The fact that this is used as an excuse to morally condemn exposes the irrationality of Syne's homophobia. As if he needed reasons to hate to begin with.

    Check out this insightful article:
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2014
  9. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

    Syne, since your primary objection to Homosexuality seems to stem from some religious belief and/or the belief that you are somehow "better" than those who are homosexual... allow me to provide to you a passage:

    John Chapter 8 Verse 7

    New Living Translation - They kept demanding an answer, so he stood up again and said, "All right, but let the one who has never sinned throw the first stone!"

    King James Bible - So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

    New English Translation - When they persisted in asking him, he stood up straight and replied, "Whoever among you is guiltless may be the first to throw a stone at her."

    Also, from Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary:

    Christ neither found fault with the law, nor excused the prisoner's guilt; nor did he countenance the pretended zeal of the Pharisees. Those are self-condemned who judge others, and yet do the same thing. All who are any way called to blame the faults of others, are especially concerned to look to themselves, and keep themselves pure. In this matter Christ attended to the great work about which he came into the world, that was, to bring sinners to repentance; not to destroy, but to save. He aimed to bring, not only the accused to repentance, by showing her his mercy, but the prosecutors also, by showing them their sins; they thought to insnare him, he sought to convince and convert them. He declined to meddle with the magistrate's office. Many crimes merit far more severe punishment than they meet with; but we should not leave our own work, to take that upon ourselves to which we are not called. When Christ sent her away, it was with this caution, Go, and sin no more. Those who help to save the life of a criminal, should help to save the soul with the same caution. Those are truly happy, whom Christ does not condemn. Christ's favour to us in the forgiveness of past sins should prevail with us, Go then, and sin no more.

    Tell me, Syne... where in the bible does it say that any among US MORTALS are deigned worthy to judge another in Gods name, hmm? Is it not said that it is Christ and God whom shall judge us, and that those who attempt to condemn others shall find themselves condemned in the eyes of Jesus?

    As far as sin goes...

    Mark Chapter 3, Verse 28 thru 30 - “Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”— because they were saying, “He has an unclean spirit.

    Be wary, Syne, of using Gods word as a sword and shield in the advancement of your personal desires...
  10. Trooper Secular Sanity Valued Senior Member

    Damn it! He proved me wrong.

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  11. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

    I do hope it is a warranted reason that actually is valid. So far, no one has ever produced any good reasons.

    Are you now saying you're not a Christian? Are you an atheist? Muslim? What?

    Let's get down to the reasons for your homophobia?
  12. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

    I would agree, there is no rationale behind those reasons whatsoever, they are totally bogus as they could apply to anyone, homosexual or heterosexual.

    It's back to pointing at the bible, again, Syne.
  13. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

    But, that does not preclude the fact that heterosexual people are not at risk and do in fact have infections. If risk and infections is your reason, then you should be against both homosexuals AND heterosexuals because they both are at risk and spread infections. To only focus on one is hypocritical.

    Sorry, but that applies to both homosexuals and heterosexuals equally.
  14. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

    Not by me, you wouldn't. And why do you think it would be right to do so? It's critical for us to understand why so many people do, indeed, regard skin color as a moral issue.

    Indeed. Anal intercourse among men is rampant in America's prisons--a way of expressing and enforcing dominance--and HIV is a major problem there.

    How can you condemn an entire population's behavior without expecting to be regarded as demonizing them??? At the very least by them, if not also by the rest of us who grew up during the rise of the Counterculture? We demonize racists, sexists, those who believe that violence is an acceptable way to resolve disputes, those who are not interested in environmental issues, and those whom we do not find to be sufficiently sympathetic to the poor. Hell, we're not even very charitable toward people who do not like our music!

    Why would you expect us to be any more tolerant of something as utterly horrible and inexcusable as homophobia?

    As a matter of fact I did my best to avoid bearing that responsibility. I was successful in avoiding military service, I supported candidates who would likely have ended the Vietnam War quite a bit earlier, and I maintained a large circle of contacts in other countries, including the former "Iron Curtain" (and still do although many have predeceased me). My discomfort was largely an extension of my feelings at home: Why are the people who run the USA such assholes? When you're in a foreign country where only a tiny fraction of the population can talk to you (those who speak Esperanto), it's very difficult to distinguish yourself from the assholes. For a while I was genuinely concerned for my safety, until I realized that my dollars spoke louder than my politics: the Ugly American syndrome was still in full force.

    You are presumably at least an amateur scientist, so why do you have so much trouble with cause and effect? Do you really not understand why people who are persecuted develop mental problems and strange and often self-destructive habits?

    Hey, I'm a moderator and I can't figure it out either. Maybe the people who run this website decided to implement Affirmative Action, and add one religionist to the staff.

    Unfortunately our bitching about Syne threatens to dominate the discussions among the Moderators, so the result of this policy is likely to be that the quality of actual moderation will suffer.
  15. quinnsong Valued Senior Member

    Maybe a set of moderators for the religion forum would be best. a Buddhist,Muslim,Wiccan, Christian, Hindu, etc...... Now that would be a hoot.
  16. Syne Sine qua non Valued Senior Member

    Do you have any evidence of that? Quite to the contrary, while attitudes toward homosexuality have been generally improving, promiscuity, mental illness, drug use, etc. have remained largely flat.

  17. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

    "Young adults who are lesbian, gay or bisexual (LGB) are at far higher risk for severe mental health problems than their heterosexual peers. New research from Concordia University suggests that the stress of being rejected or victimized because of sexual orientation may disrupt hormonal responses in lesbians, gays and bisexuals.

    Recently published as a doctoral thesis in clinical psychology, this investigation examined environmental risks and protective factors that counterbalanced them in LGB youth. "Compared to their heterosexual peers, suicide rates are up to 14 times higher among lesbian, gay and bisexual high school and college students," says Michael Benibgui, who led this investigation as part of his PhD thesis at Concordia's Department of Psychology and Centre for Research in Human Development.

    "Depression and anxiety are widespread," he continues. "To learn why this occurs, we studied the physiological impact of homophobic social environments on a group of healthy young LGB adults."

    Self loathing, stress hormones and bullying linked

    The study examined the link between living in a homophobic environment and 'internalized homophobia,' e.g., feeling negatively about oneself because of one's sexual identity as LGB.

    Individuals who experienced more LGB-related stress -- arguments about sexual identity, bullying or discrimination -- had higher internalized homophobia and showed increased production of the stress hormone cortisol compared to peers in more positive environments.

    What's more, LGB youth who showed more internalized homophobia and abnormal cortisol activity also experienced increased symptoms of depression, anxiety and suicidal thoughts. "This study is among the first to clearly link the experience of homophobia with abnormal cortisol activity," says Benibgui.

    Benibgui says abnormal cortisol activity in LGB youth, combined with the vicious cycle of stress, could be further influenced by a complex set of biological, psychological and social factors. "This study shows a clear relation between abnormal cortisol levels and environmental stressors related to homophobia," he says.

    Protective factors of social networks

    Benibgui also identified protective factors that can help safeguard mental health in young gays, lesbians and bisexuals. His research confirms that social support from parents and peers have protective effects. "LGB young adults who experienced more homophobic discrimination, yet felt accepted and supported by their peers, showed very few symptoms of depression," he says.

    These findings underline the impact -- both physical and mental -- that homophobia may have on LGB young adults. "The effect on mental health of bullying in schools has received much attention," says Benibgui. "Our study supports the notion that homophobic bullying can lead to physical and mental health problems."

    Preventative interventions are needed to protect vulnerable lesbian, gay or bisexual youth, Benibgui stresses, to discourage homophobic and heterosexist behaviors from peers and communities.

    Paul Hastings, a former Concordia psychology professor who supervised Benibgui's thesis research, says that this study should push the conversation about the impact of homophobia.

    "This study is one part of a much larger and greatly needed dialogue on the impacts that prejudice, discrimination and victimization have on healthy development and well-being in young people," says Dr. Hastings, an international member of the Centre for Research in Human Development and now a professor at the University of California, Davis. "We need to promote acceptance and respect for the diversity of our population -- including sexual diversity -- at all levels: government, community, schools and homes."

    "Mental Health Challenges and Resilience in Lesbian, Gay and Bisexual Young Adults: Biological and Psychological Internalization of Minority Stress and Victimization," was authored by Michael Benibgui, Ph.D., as his doctoral dissertation in clinical psychology at Concordia University. Professor Paul Hastings, Ph.D., now at University of California, Davis, was project supervisor."---
  18. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

    New study shows homophobes live shorter lives

    "Homophobia is killing us — literally.

    Researchers from Columbia University found people with antigay attitudes tend to live 2.5 fewer years than their more accepting peers.


    They attribute the increased mortality rate to higher stress and anger levels that “harboring prejudice produces,” according to the study, published this month in the American Journal of Public Health.

    All that agitation takes a toll on the heart, lead author Mark Hatzenbuehler and colleagues explain.

    “Antigay prejudice was specifically associated with increased risk of cardiovascular-related causes of death,” researchers wrote.

    They used data from the General Social Survey, which has been polling Americans about their sexual orientation and attitudes since 1988, and records from the National Death Index.

    To measure homophobia, they looked at answers to questions including, “Should a man who admits that he is a homosexual be allowed to teach in a college or university?” and “Do you think that sexual relations between two adults of the same sex is always wrong, almost always wrong, wrong only sometimes, or not wrong at all?”

    For highly homophobic people, “intergroup interactions are stressful,” researchers note.

    “Stress in turn is associated with less healthy behavior, such as overeating, smoking, and heavy drinking” — all factors that can contribute to a shorter life.

    Researchers controlled for multiple risk factors known to affect life span, including demographics, socioeconomic status and health.

    The findings back up earlier research that hate is bad for health, Hatzenbuehler said.

    Read more:
  19. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    Already provided, which you would know had you bothered to actually read my posts and explore the supporting evidence provided.

    And seeing as how you seem to have trouble retaining context to parse sentences... My assertion is most correctly read as " If society accepted homosexuality these harmful behaviours would not occur [above background rates]".
  20. Balerion Banned Banned

    Strawman. Per usual.

    Um, no.
  21. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

    Considering that these phenomena have been increasing among the general population, I find it difficult to figure out what your point is. Especially since including things like promiscuity and drug use as "problems" is highly controversial. As I've pointed out many times here and elsewhere, the vast majority of the "evils" of drug use are actually the second-order effects of prohibition. If your kids have to go to a heroin dealer with a prison record in order to find some pot to smoke, then they'll be exposed to the heroin trade. Duh? If they're tossed out of school for smoking it, then their grades will suffer. Duh? My parents lived through Prohibition in Chicago and reported the exact same problems we have today. My mother said the root of the problem is that, unlike, say, the Germans, British and Japanese, Americans are not authority-lovers and can usually be expected to begin breaking a law the moment it is enacted. From her perspective, the worst thing about Prohibition is that women started going to bars because it became "cool."

    As for promiscuity, who made you the Morality Police? I know several people of my own generation who practice polyamory and they and their families are just fine. One is a brilliant astrophysicist whose name some of our members might conceivably recognize. It's primarily conservative believers in preposterous supernatural phenomena who believe that there is something intrinsically wrong with promiscuity.

    (Disclaimer: I hope you and everyone else understands that the following diatribe is intended merely as an example of what gay people go through every day.) As for mental illness, I suppose I need to ramp up my insults about your stupid motherfucking religion and what a brain-dead asshole you must be to be taken in by it, and get all of my other rational (i.e., atheist) friends to join SciForums and pummel you with hateful slogans and scientific reports every day to prove that you are less than a worm, so you might understand how living under those conditions might have a less than salutary effect on your mental health. [End of diatribe posted merely for effect.]

    Indeed. If you honestly believe that people are incapable of overcoming this sort of abuse, then of course the blame for their condition rests on their abusers.

    After all, this is exactly how we treat abused wives and children! It's always Daddy's fault! It's never the mom's responsibility to sign up for martial arts classes, or the school's responsibility to add them to the curriculum in the lower grades--where they would incidentally also reduce the bullying problem in the schools themselves. (Disclaimer: again, the snark is for effect. Of course it's Daddy's fault, although it would actually be a great idea to teach martial arts in the early grades.)

    If only we could apply the same pressure to religionists and get them to feel negatively about their own fantasies, which are currently threatening to start a three-way Nuclear Holy War between the Christians, Muslims and Jews.

    Sure. I lived in Hollywood for ten years, where gays are a large segment of the population and they were accepted by the rest of us unremarkably. Even to a layman it was obvious that their mental and emotional health was considerably better than that of the gays I've met who were hiding in the mainstream community.

    Didn't this country observe the same phenomenon among Afro-Americans up until the civil rights revolution in the 1950s and 60s? Black people were so thoroughly brainwashed with the idea that they were inferior, that many of them believed it.

    Geeze, maybe there is a god after all.

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    Does that mean I have to start being nice to religionists? I'd rather die a couple of years earlier than listen to their preposterous fantasies.
  22. quinnsong Valued Senior Member

    @ Fraggle

    Wow, I do hope you feel better now. That shellacking took the paint off my walls!
  23. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member


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