Amnesty International and Hamas

[BenTheMan]

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2009/02/421824.html?c=on#comments

At least two dozen men have been shot dead by Hamas gunmen in this period. Scores of others have been shot in the legs, kneecapped or inflicted with other injuries intended to cause permanent disability, subjected to severe beatings which have caused multiple fractures and other injuries, or otherwise tortured or ill-treated.

Especially interesting is the comment below the article:

Hamas is not an 'armed faction', nor a 'paramilitary group' ... it is the legitimate government of Palestine, groups that oppose them with betrayal and arms deserve very little of our sympathy. In a time of war an instant death penalty is the norm for such behaviour - however unsavoury it may appear to us luxuriating at our computers

Is it ok for a government, during time of war, to torture and kill it's own civilians? It seems to me that this commenter just justified the American internment of Japanese during WWII...

 

[S.A.M.]

Does Hamas have autonomy? They are not an independent nation like America. They have to protect themselves from collaborators like the ones who gave away key positions to the Israelis in the Gaza war.

A more apt comparison would be Patriots who killed Loyalists in the American war.

Or Jews who killed collaborators in Warsaw.

 

[spidergoat]

It's more like the brownshirts, cementing their hold on power by assassinating their rivals, they are political thugs. Their lack of legitimacy is proved by the fact that so many of their own citizens oppose them.

 

[BenTheMan]

Does Hamas have autonomy?

Does it matter?

A more apt comparison would be Patriots who killed Loyalists in the American war.

Or Jews who killed collaborators in Warsaw.

Are you justifying these events?

 

[StrawDog]

Does it matter?



Are you justifying these events?

What penalty does TREASON carry in the US?

 

[quadraphonics]

What penalty does TREASON carry in the US?

There is no crime in the United States that carries a penalty of extrajudicial, public execution/handicapping.

Is a process in which gunmen storm into hospitals and summarily murder patients who are suspected of collaboration really your idea of a defensible system for national justice?

 

[fedr808]

Does Hamas have autonomy? They are not an independent nation like America. They have to protect themselves from collaborators like the ones who gave away key positions to the Israelis in the Gaza war.

A more apt comparison would be Patriots who killed Loyalists in the American war.

Or Jews who killed collaborators in Warsaw.

Hamas is autonnomy, Gaza is supposed to be an independant nation, too bad the palestinian government is too lazy to produce food to feed itself.

 

[fedr808]

What penalty does TREASON carry in the US?

jail, at the worst. But hey, people in the USA enjoy it so much more than anywhere else, i guess it usually doesnt happen.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

What penalty does TREASON carry in the US?

What treason? Fatah? Fatah is treason? really, I would say Hamas is the one committing treason.

When? where? the trial? what jury? who said they committed treason?

So that means I can decide that you have committed treason and just shoot you with no trial.

They had first been held in the notorious al-Mashtal detention centre, north of Gaza City, run by the Internal Security Force (previously run by Hamas’ armed militia, the Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades).

Aren't you one who screams about Abu Ghrieb and Gitmo, and you defend this.

http://www.humanrights-geneva.info/Palestinian-Detained-and-Tortured,1974

Palestinian Detained and Tortured in al- Mashtal Detention Center Dies
16 July 07

Palestinian Center for Human Rights - PCHR calls for opening an immediate investigation into the death of Waleed Abu Dalfa during his detention in al-Mashtal intelligence outpost, northwest of Gaza City, after he and his bother had been tortured by the Izziddin al-Qassam Brigades (the military wing of Hamas) which currently control the outpost. PCHR also strongly condemns arrests and detentions by the Izziddin al-Qassam Brigades, which are often accompanied by practicing torture against a number of detainees, and calls for stopping such illegal practices, emphasizing that Hamas’ military wing does not have any legal status that entitles them to arrest or detain people.

According to investigations conducted by PCHR, at approximately 23:00 on Sunday, 15 July 2007, the body of Waleed Salman Abu Dalfa, 45, from Gaza City, was brought to the reception department at Shifa Hospital in Gaza City, carried on a litter by members of the Izziddin al-Qassam Brigades. According to initial medical checking conducted by a doctor, there were “bruises on the hands and the legs, hematomas in the legs and signs of stranglehold on the neck.” These results were further asserted also by a forensic specialist who checked the body on Monday morning, 16 July 2007, in the presence of a representative of PCHR and a relative of the victim. These results indicate that Abu Dalfa died when he was subjected to torture during detention, which was also asserted by PCHR, which additionally concluded that his brother, 41-year-old Khalil Salman Abu Dalfa, who had been also subjected to torture before being released following his brother’s death.

Ah yes, Strawdog, so if it is a Muslim doing the torturing and murder, you dismiss it as taking care of Traitors, and the penalty for treason.

Can you wrap your mouth around the word hypocrite, or even look at your self in the mirror.

 

[quadraphonics]

jail, at the worst. But hey, people in the USA enjoy it so much more than anywhere else, i guess it usually doesnt happen.

No, you can be put to death for treason, although it hasn't happened in quite some time. It's fairly difficult to convict someone of treason, the way its defined in the Constitution, so traitors are usually tried for the lesser crime of espionage instead. Which can also result in the death penalty, but most of the time does not.

 

[S.A.M.]

Does it matter?

Yes it does, how did the French Resistance deal with the Vichy?

Is it the same as the French government deals with spies?

How did Jews in Warsaw deal with collaborators?

Is it the same as Israelis deal with spies?

Autonomy is the difference between governance and resistance.

Are you justifying these events?

No just pointing out that they are not unique and occur in all societies in similar situations.

Just transpose the names:

In fact the Z.O.B (Zydowska Organizacja Bojowa, or the Jewish Fighters Organization) had been planning an attack on the Jewish Police (who collaborated with the Nazis) for the 22nd, but when the Germans marched into the Ghetto they decided to engage them in combat. A bloody street battle took place, in which the significanly inferior-armed Jews lost a great deal of their number. From then on the Z.O.B decided never to engage the Germans openly - where they were bound to lose - but engaged them in partisan warfare. Despite their losses on this day however, an important psychological blow was struck. The Germans could not have everything their own way. They were not invincible.

From that point until April the Germans deportation plans were delayed, Nazi collaborators killed, and the Z.O.B (along with other Jewish fighting forces) were in virtually complete control of the Ghetto. Meanwhile the Polish underground movement, impressed by the Jews courage, supplied the Z.O.B with more and better weaponry.

http://www.warsaw-life.com/poland/warsaw-ghetto-uprising

In France, it went both ways:

The Milice française (French Militia), generally called simply Milice, was a paramilitary force created on January 30 1943 by the Vichy Regime, with German aid, to help fight the French Resistance. The Milice's formal leader was Prime Minister Pierre Laval, though its chief of operations, and actual leader, was Secretary General Joseph Darnand. It participated in summary executions, assassinations and helped round up the Jews and résistants in France for deportation. It was the successor to Joseph Darnand's Service d'ordre légionnaire (SOL) militia.

The Milice often resorted to torture to extract information or confessions from those they rounded up. They were often considered more dangerous to the French Resistance than the Gestapo and SS themselves, since they were Frenchmen who spoke the language, had a full knowledge of the towns and land, and knew people and informers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milice

 

[StrawDog]

There is no crime in the United States that carries a penalty of extrajudicial, public execution/handicapping.

Umm... except perhaps suspected terrorists? Like in Gitmo?

Is a process in which gunmen storm into hospitals and summarily murder patients who are suspected of collaboration really your idea of a defensible system for national justice?

No. I condemn this 100%.

 

[StrawDog]

What treason? Fatah? Fatah is treason? really, I would say Hamas is the one committing treason.

When? where? the trial? what jury? who said they committed treason?

So that means I can decide that you have committed treason and just shoot you with no trial.

Steady on. I simply asked what penalty TREASON carries in the US? Do you have a answer?

Aren't you one who screams about Abu Ghrieb and Gitmo, and you defend this.

http://www.humanrights-geneva.info/Palestinian-Detained-and-Tortured,1974

Palestinian Detained and Tortured in al- Mashtal Detention Center Dies
16 July 07

Where did I defend this?

Ah yes, Strawdog, so if it is a Muslim doing the torturing and murder, you dismiss it as taking care of Traitors, and the penalty for treason.

No. I am simply pointing out a CONTEXT. Traitors, wherever they are, are essentially treated in the same manner. Execution.

Can you wrap your mouth around the word hypocrite, or even look at your self in the mirror.

No, I much prefer wrapping my mouth around a nice slice of cheesecake.

 

[S.A.M.]

Usually, the punishment for treason used to be execution by firing squad

Execution by firing squad is a method of capital punishment, particularly common in times of war. The firing squad is generally composed of several soldiers or peace officers. The method of execution requires all members of the group to fire simultaneously, thus preventing both disruption of the process by a single member and identification of the member who fired the lethal shot. The condemned is typically blindfolded or hooded, as well as restrained - though in some cases, condemned prisoners have asked to be allowed to face the firing squad with their eyes open. Executions can be carried out with the condemned either standing or sitting.

Execution by firing squad is distinct from other forms of execution by firearms, such as a single shot from a handgun to the back of the neck. However, the single shot (coup de grâce) is sometimes incorporated in a firing squad execution, particularly if the initial volley turns out not to be immediately fatal.

The method is also the supreme punishment or disciplinary means employed by courts martial for crimes such as cowardice, desertion or mutiny.

Including in the US:

According to Executions in the U.S. 1608-1987 by M. Watt Espy and John Ortiz Smylka, it is estimated that 142 men have been judicially shot in the United States and English-speaking predecessor territories since 1608, excluding executions related to the American Civil War. The Civil War saw several hundred firing squad deaths, but reliable numbers are not available. Crimes punishable by firing squad in the Civil War included desertion, intentionally killing a superior officer or fellow soldier, and being a spy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firing_squad

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Usually, the punishment for treason used to be execution by firing squad




Including in the US:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firing_squad

SAM, after trial, not summary extrajudical execution.

Aren't you the one who was all over U.S. Troops for executing Iraqi Trators, with out trial.

 

[S.A.M.]

I'm sure the "trials" in the civil war were as illuminating as the ones for Gitmo.

You can't hold a trial after being bombed for a month. You just get rid of the spies.

The US has no jurisdiction in Iraq. They are not the ones resisting occupation.

If the Iraqis were to execute those collaborating with the US, that would be the parallel analogy.

Unless you think it was wrong of the Warsaw Jews and French resistance to execute collaborators.

edit: here is another story that has stayed with me:

Anther story I recall vividly from those same high school days was that of the Norwegian resistance discovering a traitor amongst them, a man who had given over names of the resistance to the Nazis. He was confronted by the resistance in his home with his family. They tied him to a chair and then summarily executed his wife and three children in front of his eyes, and he was allowed to go free, to live whatever life was possible for him.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12355.htm

This covers it:

The lesson of history is to never underestimate the occupied and oppressed. And the second lesson is you can’t win against the occupied. You don’t have the same will. They will die for their cause.

 

[copernicus66]

What penalty does TREASON carry in the US?

Who fucking cares? We're talking about Hamas, not the U.S.A.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

I'm sure the "trials" in the civil war were as illuminating as the ones for Gitmo.

You can't hold a trial after being bombed for a month. You just get rid of the spies.

The US has no jurisdiction in Iraq. They are not the ones resisting occupation.

If the Iraqis were to execute those collaborating with the US, that would be the parallel analogy.

Unless you think it was wrong of the Warsaw Jews and French resistance to execute collaborators.

edit: here is another story that has stayed with me:



http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12355.htm

This covers it:

So as long as it is a Muslim doing the killing it is perfectly fine with you, that is all you have proven with your last series of post.

SAM uses the moral relevancy card again, excuse every Muslim Atrocity by pointing some were else as a excuse.

 

[StrawDog]

Who fucking cares? We're talking about Hamas, not the U.S.A.

I almost forgot. The US is ABOVE the laws that govern the rest of the planet.

 

[quadraphonics]

Umm... except perhaps suspected terrorists? Like in Gitmo?

There's a number of technicalities I could point to here, but perhaps I will content myself with pointing out that the closure of Gitmo has already been ordered.

Not that pointing out that the Bush Administration was almost as bad as Hamas in some respects added up to an interesting response even when W was in power...

No. I condemn this 100%.

Could have fooled me.