ALMA sees old galaxies before they merged. two ways to look back into the past?

[nebel]

This seems to link with Hameroff and Penrose, ORCH OR.

I am very impressed with the level of detail in the discussion you all have about the nature of basically is called energytime or timespace #1 in the expanding universe#3 into the future theory. infinite time #1 having uncreated energy or vis versa.
Great minds at work.as we send into into the future, but receive them from the pst.

 

[Write4U]

This may be of interest

Krishnamurti, Bohm and the
Edges of Transcendence

0 8 . 29 . 2 0 12:00 PM PT | 3:00 PM ET

Be there. Save your seat now.

08 Days, 08 Hours, 57 Minutes

https://www.infinitepotential.com/?utm_source=Google Ads&utm_medium=CPC&utm_campaign=

 

[nebel]

Andromeda's halo is already bumping into the halo of our own galaxy.
Quoted from:
NASA/Goddard Space Flight Center. "Hubble maps giant halo around Andromeda Galaxy." ScienceDaily. ScienceDaily, 27 August 2020. <www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/08/200827141345.htm>
This hread started with a question about seeing 2galaxies merging as seen from a long time ago. Now the merging of galactic material from us and Andromeda has started.
While the universe #3 expands into time, look-back time gets longer, but some bodies come spatially closer, moving along the "membrane" of the model, so both in timespace #1 and space they will have merged.


In all models bsw, the elongating sausage of write 4 you:

or the NSF image,

or the nebel sketch

It is understood, that the observer is looking from the perspective of being in timespace #1, , watching the sausage slices, or membrane universe #3 moving out into the future #1.

 

[nebel]

University of Southern Denmark. "Will this solve the mystery of the expansion of the universe?." ScienceDaily. ScienceDaily, 3 March 2021. <www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/03/210303142442.htm>.

"--The universe was created by a giant bang; the Big Bang 13.8 billion years ago, and then it started to expand. The expansion is ongoing: it is still being stretched out in all directions like a balloon being inflated.- is something going on in the universe that physicists have not yet discovered and therefore have not taken into account?--"

there possibly is, and the present alternative theory proposes. that the universe #3 is expanding like a balloon into timespace or energytime #1, which existed before the big bang #4 and still exists as the outside as the future #1, and accordingly, that the so-called dark energy is really the residue energy from the big bang, that is absorbed as the expansion of the bubble #3 continues.

so simply put: : energy is a feature of the future

 

[nebel]

Did time flow in two directions from the big bang, making two futures?
Why time only flows forwards is one of the great mysteries of physics. A new idea suggests that it actually went in two ways from the big bang
PHYSICS 3 March 2021
By Julian Barbour
Read more: https://www.newscientist.com/articl...he-big-bang-making-two-futures/#ixzz6oIclqt8N

brillant, but in the present alternative theory, the universe moves in not just 2 opposite directions ( as in the title) but all outward directions into the future.
It is not just like 2 sausage links in the NSF image above, , but an independant expanding "balloon" membrane #3 of zero length in time.

 

[Dicart]

brillant, but in the present alternative theory, the universe moves in not just 2 opposite directions ( as in the title) but all outward directions into the future.
It is not just like 2 sausage links in the NSF image above, , but an independant expanding "balloon" membrane #3 of zero length in time.

Yes that is was i heard about precedently, to say it simple, the center "inflate" in every direction and because the inflation makes theses portions of univers going much much faster than speed of light, they are disconnected from the other => This lead to a bunch of Univers, multiverses with all their own properties.

Fabulous.

But i think the things are much more simple :
The Universe is a creation, ta-da !!!
End of the story.

Now, the difficulty (i diden't found it so difficult but it is what people say) is to make this hypothesis fit with the observations.
Because it is not what we see...

 

[nebel]

Yes that is was i heard about precedently, to say it simple, the center "inflate" in every direction and because the inflation makes theses portions of univers going much much faster than speed of light, they are disconnected from the other => This lead to a bunch of Univers, multiverses with all their own properties.

you heard wrong. the expanding membrane model suggests that the universe has expanded for 13.8 billion years, and we can only see 1/4 of it, like the image below from page #47, post 972, or the sketch above. The universe has not split, the membrane is still intact. dont worry about the multiverse, the connected sausage links, and leave "creation" to the religions. Energy is uncreated. always was in timespace #1.

 

[Dicart]

Ok.

We're always looking toward the center, i.e the BB. Moreover, all galaxies were formed after the BB.
Does that answer your question?

This i what you see...

But could it be possible that it is only a naive interpretation ?
When i look into the fog, things tend to disapear.
Are things disappearing really and tend to disappear much an much they are far from the observer ?
No, and you know that because you can go there where things are supposed to have disappeared, in the fog, and you can see that they are there without change.

Same in the universe.
What you call the BB, the "beginning" could be like in the fog, the limit where an object disappear due to the distance.
But there, where you think there is no galaxy (because you suppose they were not yet created), there are galaxys, the same as the all the other you have in your surrounding.

Not convinced ?
To verify this, if you could... you can travel like the light, and for the light the time of the travel is equal to 0 seconds (so yes i know you can not take a photon as reference, it has no sens and blablablabla, so suppose you travel just a bit under the speed of light and you are very small).
So, what is there, "for the light", at 13.8 Gyear distance ? Some galaxys or some proton soup ?
Some galaxys ...

Strange world ?
No, its like the fog.
The trick, in my opinion, is that, because of the expansion, at 13.8 Gyear distance, the expansion speed is around the speed of light.
So you know what happen if something go away from you at the speed of light : It looks freezed.
But there is something else you probably dont know : If a material object go away from you and attain relativist speed, it appears like if he was broken, and if he attain almost speed of light, he appear like he would be "exploded" (but he is not) and we observe the things that constitute the object, like atomes and even more tiny parts.
This is what you see at the 13.8 GYear limite, galaxys that look like they are exploded, but they are not.
This can be verified i think because there should be some signature of this phenomenom in the WMAP observation.

 

[nebel]

To verify this, if you could... you can travel like the light, and for the light the time of the travel is equal to 0 seconds (so yes i know you can not take a photon as reference, it has no sens and blablablabla, so suppose you travel just a bit under the speed of light and you are very small).
So, what is there, "for the light", at 13.8 Gyear distance ? Some galaxys or some proton soup ?

The Big Bang, #4is gone, you can not travel back to it, even entanglement would not help. The zero second elapse at the speed of light just means that it doesn't age, only stretches with the expansion of spacetime. we do not have to travel, the light comes to us, from all directions, but as the model shows, light now in the # 10 positions, is 3,14 x 13,8 ~ 34 billion years from us, is even beyond your "fog" or nebel. so:

you are right nowhere we travel to in the universe #3, will we find that "proton soup", it disappeared a long time ago. it's light will reach us for some time to come. traveling in membrane #3.

 

[river]

The Big Bang, #4is gone, you can not travel back to it, even entanglement would not help. The zero second elapse at the speed of light just means that it doesn't age, only stretches with the expansion of spacetime. we do not have to travel, the light comes to us, from all directions, but as the model shows, light now in the # 10 positions, is 3,14 x 13,8 ~ 34 billion years from us, is even beyond your "fog" or nebel. so:

you are right nowhere we travel to in the universe #3, will we find that "proton soup", it disappeared a long time ago. it's light will reach us for some time to come. traveling in membrane #3.

Highlighted

But the source of light , Galactic Globular Centers and Suns , do age . Hence light fades .

 

[river]

Ok.


This i what you see...

But could it be possible that it is only a naive interpretation ?
When i look into the fog, things tend to disapear.
Are things disappearing really and tend to disappear much an much they are far from the observer ?
No, and you know that because you can go there where things are supposed to have disappeared, in the fog, and you can see that they are there without change.

Same in the universe.
What you call the BB, the "beginning" could be like in the fog, the limit where an object disappear due to the distance.
But there, where you think there is no galaxy (because you suppose they were not yet created), there are galaxys, the same as the all the other you have in your surrounding.

Not convinced ?
To verify this, if you could... you can travel like the light, and for the light the time of the travel is equal to 0 seconds (so yes i know you can not take a photon as reference, it has no sens and blablablabla, so suppose you travel just a bit under the speed of light and you are very small).
So, what is there, "for the light", at 13.8 Gyear distance ? Some galaxys or some proton soup ?
Some galaxys ...

Strange world ?
No, its like the fog.
The trick, in my opinion, is that, because of the expansion, at 13.8 Gyear distance, the expansion speed is around the speed of light.
So you know what happen if something go away from you at the speed of light : It looks freezed.
But there is something else you probably dont know : If a material object go away from you and attain relativist speed, it appears like if he was broken, and if he attain almost speed of light, he appear like he would be "exploded" (but he is not) and we observe the things that constitute the object, like atomes and even more tiny parts.
This is what you see at the 13.8 GYear limite, galaxys that look like they are exploded, but they are not.
This can be verified i think because there should be some signature of this phenomenom in the WMAP observation.

That is pretty good , don't agree with it all , but pretty good , well done . And encouraging really .

But now start your own thread , or take the time to refine your thinking . ( You not be heard from for a while )

 

[nebel]

But the source of light , Galactic Globular Centers and Suns , do age . Hence light fades .

Yes, analyzing light, how emitted, how absorbed, how reflected tells us a lot, absence of light, and other radiation too.
The question in the OP was, can we see the same event if the past twice, once directly and a second time, when the same message comes along membrane # 3 again, the longer way through point # 10.
and the anwe seems no, the unrelenting, even accelerating expansion*** through time #1 will put the second chance out of reach.
accept your limitations, make the best you have of the zero length moment now.
*** an acceleration fueled by the uncreated energy in the timespace #1, still being absorbed by the movement of universe #3 into the future.

 

[river]

From post #1009 , nebel ;

The Big Bang, #4is gone, you can not travel back to it, even entanglement would not help. The zero second elapse at the speed of light just means that it doesn't age, only stretches with the expansion of spacetime. we do not have to travel, the light comes to us, from all directions, but as the model shows, light now in the # 10 positions, is 3,14 x 13,8 ~ 34 billion years from us, is even beyond your "fog" or nebel. so:

you are right nowhere we travel to in the universe #3, will we find that "proton soup", it disappeared a long time ago. it's light will reach us for some time to come. traveling in membrane

You still need a source of the light .

Our Suns light energy moves out towards every other star as well . As all Stars do . Three dimensionally .

Inotherwords All Suns are giving off light energy 360° , forward , backward , and in the cardinal directions , all the time .

 

[nebel]

You still need a source of the light .

Our Suns light energy moves out towards every other star as well . As all Stars do . Three dimensionally .
Inotherwords All Suns are giving off light energy 360° , forward , backward , and in the cardinal directions , all the time .

In the model of the universe as an expanding sphere, membrane, #3, light would come only from the four points of the compass so to speak, as a panorama;
The stars in the galaxies, of the ALMA image that the OP mentioned are long gone, but their light still reaches us.
We even receive licht that is from a time, when there were no stars yet. closer to the beginning #4.
The light from stars in position #10, will never reach us , because 3/4 of the universe is beyond our horizon. see post # 1007. and remember:
energy is a feature of the future.

 

[river]

river said: ↑
You still need a source of the light .

Our Suns light energy moves out towards every other star as well . As all Stars do . Three dimensionally .
Inotherwords All Suns are giving off light energy 360° , forward , backward , and in the cardinal directions , all the time .

In the model of the universe as an expanding sphere, membrane, #3, light would come only from the four points of the compass so to speak, as a panorama;
The stars in the galaxies, of the ALMA image that the OP mentioned are long gone, but their light still reaches us.
We even receive licht that is from a time, when there were no stars yet. closer to the beginning #4.
The light from stars in position #10, will never reach us , because 3/4 of the universe is beyond our horizon. see post # 1007. and remember:
energy is a feature of the future.

None sense .

 

[nebel]

You still need a source of the light .

tight. any object with a temperature above absolute 0 kelvin, -273 celsius emits light. enjoy the glow.

 

[river]

tight. any object with a temperature above absolute 0 kelvin, -273 celsius emits light. enjoy the glow.

Such as for example ...

 

[nebel]

Such as for example ...

around 100 Kelvin or minus 173 degrees below freezing water.

These clouds tend to have temperatures of around 100 Kelvin and are commonly named HI clouds, since astronomers often refer to neutral hydrogen as HI (pronounced H-one). Occasionally gas clouds are found close to a very hot star which heats the gas to about 10,000 Kelvin.
Interstellar Gas Cloud | COSMOS
https://astronomy.swin.edu.au › cosmos › interstellar+gas+.

so, we know they are there because we can see them, with light that cold.

 

[nebel]

"--A survey of more than 1 million galaxies across the cosmos has shown that the distribution of matter may not be the same in every direction, which could upend much of what we understand about the universe. --"
Read more: https://www.newscientist.com/articl...bout-the-universe-may-be-wrong/#ixzz6oixqiZpL

How would such asymmetry affect the model of an universe expanding into time? well, remember, that the model predicts, that we, or any far out denisen, can only capture 1/4 of the radiation message out there that is within their horizon, ( the caps on the sphere in post 1007 above) . If absolute overall balance is an universal requirement, it would exist in the other 3 unseen areas of the membrane #3.

 

[river]

around 100 Kelvin or minus 173 degrees below freezing water.

These clouds tend to have temperatures of around 100 Kelvin and are commonly named HI clouds, since astronomers often refer to neutral hydrogen as HI (pronounced H-one). Occasionally gas clouds are found close to a very hot star which heats the gas to about 10,000 Kelvin.
Interstellar Gas Cloud | COSMOS
https://astronomy.swin.edu.au › cosmos › interstellar+gas+.

so, we know they are there because we can see them, with light that cold.

But not the light its self .