AI is ridiculous concept that many misinterpret.

Discussion in 'Intelligence & Machines' started by Bob-a-builder, Jun 15, 2019.

  1. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    And how subtle may this sense of self be? Does a watermolecule have a sense of self?
    When we place a bunch a bunch of H and a bunch of O atoms in close proximity they "self-assemble" into H2O molecules. How do they do that? By unseen forces....?

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    Last edited: Dec 28, 2020
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  3. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    No, I think it's an evolutionary adaptation to enhance self-preservation.
    They are generating an awareness of themselves and their capabilities. Again, it's an evolutionary advantage to be aware of your own capabilities, and to see yourself as having consciousness and a unique viewpoint on the world.
     
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  5. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Evolutionary emergent qualities and abilities?
     
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  7. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Nope.
    Well, no, they don't.

    I am sure you meant H2 and O2 since those are how those gases normally present. You can mix them and nothing will happen. You have to raise their temperature enough so that the thermal energy available is sufficient to overcome their inherent bonding forces. Hydrogen bonds are some of the strongest bonds there are, so it takes energy to overcome them.

    However, once you've started that process, the process of combining the now-available hydrogen with oxygen is exothermic, and provides the energy to enable more H2 and O2 to combine. For a dramatic example of this, consider the space shuttle's main engines. That's how they get their power.
     
  8. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Doesn't that depend on the definition of "sense of self". Does being a self need to start as a conscious experience or just as a physical state of being itself?
    Specific details aside, H2O is a self-assembling molecule, no? Water has not always existed, it was formed and it did so all by itself.
    I agree, but again, it depends on the definition of self, no?
     
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  9. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Of course it is possible to quibble over definitions, but I am not interested.
    Under the right conditions, yes. Its formation is guided by physics, though, not any "sense of self."
     
  10. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Why are you making this so difficult? I am in total agreement with you. You are being the quibbler, please.
    Of course not, that comes later as an emergent evolutionary property of self-referential processes.

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    .. Signal --> Collection --> Transduction <--> Processing --> Action
     
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  11. Steve Klinko Registered Senior Member

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    Huge Explanatory Gap in saying: "They are generating an awareness of themselves and their capabilities."
     
  12. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    There are a lot of huge evolutionary gaps. I am not saying that we know how it happened; I am saying that self-awareness has a clear evolutionary benefit, so evolution (which has produced every other aspect of our cognition) would target that as well.
     
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  13. Steve Klinko Registered Senior Member

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    If you are just saying that there is an Evolutionary benefit to Self Awareness then ok. I am always looking for the How of it, not the Why of it.
     
  14. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    The Why drives the How.

    Sensitivity to biological self-referential differential equations?

    Saturday, October 03, 2020
    What are Differential Equations and how do they work?



    (This is a transcript of the video embedded below. Some parts of the text may not make sense without the graphics in the video.)
    https://backreaction.blogspot.com/2020/10/what-are-differential-equations-and-how_3.html

    Saturday, October 10, 2020
    You don’t have free will, but don’t worry.


    https://backreaction.blogspot.com/2020/10/you-dont-have-free-will-but-dont-worry.html
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2020
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  15. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    How what? How we have self awareness? We really don't - it's an illusion. For example, our brains commit to a course of action BEFORE we think about it and make a decision. That flies in the face of thinking we have free will and self determination but there it is.
     
  16. Steve Klinko Registered Senior Member

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    The Why does not drive any particular How. There will be multiple Hows for any Why.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2020
  17. Steve Klinko Registered Senior Member

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    You are obviously a follower of Dennett. If you believe that Conscious Experiences like Redness, Standard A Tone, and Salty Taste are Illusions then there is little that I will be able to say to convince you otherwise. What I would suggest is to think more Deeply about these Conscious Experiences. Most people will eventually understand the separate Reality of these things after some study.
     
  18. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    I don't know who Dennett is.
    If you think your experience of redness is the same as mine, or the same as some sort of standard experience, then yes - that is an illusion. Only the effect it has upon you, measured in your output, matters. You could see red and experience exactly the same thing I experience when I see green. Does that mean your "redness" is an illusion? Or mine?
     
  19. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    When we agree on our illusions (hallucinations) we call that Reality, (Anil Seth)
     
  20. Steve Klinko Registered Senior Member

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    That's just an Obscuration of the issue. Of course nobody expects your Experience of Redness and mine to be exactly the same when looking at the same Red object. But it is likely that the Redness that you Experience and mine are very very similar. We don't have the technology to compare this yet.
     
  21. Steve Klinko Registered Senior Member

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    That is awake Conscious Experience. So?
     
  22. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    And physical reality doesn't go away when we are asleep or anesthesized, even as we lose conscious awareness of it.

    Homeostasis (subconscious internal control functions), continues to function when we are asleep or anesthesized. That resides in a different part of the brain (Level II), which monitors the internal world of the microbiome.

    Homeostasis
    And here is the pertinent part!!!
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeostasis

    Consciousness is "awareness" of exterior stimuli and ability to detect "differentials" against "stored memory". This then requires conscious action to maintain "equilibrium" with the exterior.
     
  23. Steve Klinko Registered Senior Member

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    But how does any of this get us closer to understanding or Explaining things like Redness, Standard A Tone, and Salty Taste?
     

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