Africa, condoms and the Catholic Church...

[davewhite04]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

There is circumstantial evidence. 200 million Africans are Catholic. All of them not practing safe sex based on archaic beliefs, ethically it's rotten by the Catholic church in this situation. I've listed the suffering but it falls on death ears.

Ethically what do you think of the part the Catholic church in Africa plays?

 

[davewhite04]

Evidence?

How many Christians live in Sub Saharan Africa?

How religious groups' sizes changed in sub-Saharan Africa, 2010-2020

Most people in sub-Saharan Africa are Christian. Christians and Muslims grew rapidly in number in the region from 2010 to 2020, according to Pew Research Center.

www.pewresearch.org

How many Catholics?

Catholic Church in Africa - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

How many Africans have HIV in Sub Saharan Africa?

HIV/AIDS in Africa - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Pinball1970]

I agree. What I have to say is is Christians(inc Catholics) should not be a bad influence in any department never mind the pain and suffering Christianity is causing in Africa.

Religion is my problem Pinball, I think Jesus would simply be angry at the actions of his so called followers.

Have you heard of Bill Hicks? I love him, great comedian. One of his lines is when Jesus comes back he's coming back with guns.

Jesus was angry at the establishment in his life time.

I hated stand up, I thought it was shit and embarrassing. My mates were always trying to drag me to comedy club night in Manc(Jim Jeffries did there) I refused, then I watched Bill Hicks.

Wow. Scrabbling round to get tickets I missed a night in Leeds I think. No matter, get him next year, he died 12 months later.

 

[davewhite04]

Jesus was angry at the establishment in his life time.

I hated stand up, I thought it was shit and embarrassing. My mates were always trying to drag me to comedy club night in Manc(Jim Jeffries did there) I refused, then I watched Bill Hicks.

Wow. Scrabbling round to get tickets I missed a night in Leeds I think. No matter, get him next year, he died 12 months later.

I still hate stand up now Pinball! Bill the person I liked, he said things back then what were taboo, great man sorry you missed that show.

 

[Wizard of Whatever]

This has been addressed before.

Sagan often used this line in the context of scientific reasoning and scepticism. Bear in mind however this principle only applies when something could, in principle, leave evidence, but we haven’t found it yet. Such as extraterrestrial life.

But Hitchens Razor suggests that when some unsupported claim is offered, without evidence and the burden of proof being on the person making a claim, we may dismiss it. There's a telepathic poodle which lives in my chimney. We don't need to waste our time on trying to disprove this, we can just dismiss this on lack of evidence.

Sometimes there is evidence that is not accepted as such, but is real. Some times there are pointers to evidence that are not considered. Even without concrete evidence, some very rational theories are just dismissed without consideration.
As for the Razor, use it carefully so as not to get cut by going too deep or leaving stubble by not going deep enough.

 

[James R]

Olga:

Джеймс, выбрось свой переводчик! Он же уже просто издевается над тобой, переводя вообще другой текст. Я нигде не написала о производстве сельхозтоваров.

What did you not understand in "The continent that produces the most food is Asia"?

 

[James R]

davewhite04:

1) Yes, but do you think teaching Africans unsafe sex in a country with explosions of stds is a good thing?

I don't think that's a good thing. Did I give the impression that I think it's a good thing? Where?

2) What evidence do you want?

Any evidence that supports the claim you made: "The vast majority sexually transmitted diseases are directly a result of the Catholic churches belief in the use of no protection."

Education in what?

Well, you seem to think that teaching unsafe sex is bad, for example. It would follow that, therefore, education about safe sex would be good. Right?

That's just one example. You could think about education in a much more general way, of course.

Shifting the blame eh...

Excuse me?

You made the claim that the Catholic Church is directly responsible for the low usage of contraception in Africa. You then admitted that you have no evidence that supports the claim you made.

You then commented that you believe the birth rate is too high in Africa and that you think high rates of STIs in Africa are problematic. I suggested that education might help address both those problems.

You also complained that, in your opinion, Africa is a "shit show" and you implied that you don't think you're getting bang for your buck when it comes to providing financial aid to Africa.

I suggested to you that, perhaps the "shit show" aspects of Africa have something to do with the legacy of colonialism on that continent.

Now you accuse me of "shifting the blame". I assume that's because you think that Africans are solely responsible for their predicament and that the history of European colonialism in the continent has nothing to do with it.

Do you want to now provide some evidence to support this latest thesis of yours? If you do, then we can discuss.

 

[Olga]

Olga:

What did you not understand in "The continent that produces the most food is Asia"?

Джеймс, зачем вы заблокировали Ричарда? Опять на сайте наступит скука смертная. Такое впечатление, что вы делаете это специально, чтобы вам спать не мешали.

 

[James R]

Olga:

James, why did you block Richard?

Why are you asking about that in a completely unrelated thread? Look here:

Use of AI on sciforums. Policy discussion

The recent incident with the user who posted under the name Richard Townsend shows why it is important that we develop a coherent policy concerning the use of AI on sciforums. It seems more than likely that the user I mentioned posted nothing but cut-and-pasted responses from an AI chatbot. A...

www.sciforums.com

Again, mortal boredom will set in on the site.

Nobody is holding you prisoner here, Olga. Please feel free to leave any time you like.

 

[Olga]

Olga:

Why are you asking about that in a completely unrelated thread? Look here:

Use of AI on sciforums. Policy discussion

The recent incident with the user who posted under the name Richard Townsend shows why it is important that we develop a coherent policy concerning the use of AI on sciforums. It seems more than likely that the user I mentioned posted nothing but cut-and-pasted responses from an AI chatbot. A...

www.sciforums.com

Nobody is holding you prisoner here, Olga. Please feel free to leave any time you like.

Ты не хочешь чтобы на сайте было интересно, Джеймс? Тебе не нужны лишние обсуждения, потому что это добавляет тебе работы?

 

[James R]

Olga:

You're not getting the message. Try an appropriate forum. Post in Site Feedback.

This thread is about Africa, condoms and the Catholic church.

Post on topic or don't post here.

 

[Wizard of Whatever]

There is circumstantial evidence. 200 million Africans are Catholic. All of them not practing safe sex based on archaic beliefs, ethically it's rotten by the Catholic church in this situation. I've listed the suffering but it falls on death ears.

Ethically what do you think of the part the Catholic church in Africa plays?

The Catholic church is just supporting local custom here, but its' objective is based on its' own beliefs.

 

[davewhite04]

The Catholic church is just supporting local custom here, but its' objective is based on its' own beliefs.

The Catholic church is pushing its beliefs onto a struggling country which is getting worse in this area simply because the people follow what the church is teaching.

I don't know whats worse, the complete lack of empathy or the Catholic church.

 

[davewhite04]

davewhite04:

I don't think that's a good thing.

Good.

Any evidence that supports the claim you made: "The vast majority sexually transmitted diseases are directly a result of the Catholic churches belief in the use of no protection."

Firstly, me and exchemist sort of agreed that there is no official figures available, but if you've got a brain and more importantly not a grudge against whoever you're talking to then using the links to evidence(that I posted a couple of posts ago) then correlating the evidence should land you in a position that says, yes Catholics are causing unneeded suffering, and holding development back. If it doesn't, that's your issue or prerogative.

Well, you seem to think that teaching unsafe sex is bad, for example. It would follow that, therefore, education about safe sex would be good. Right?

That's just one example. You could think about education in a much more general way, of course.

You just twist what people say continuously with no problem doing so, can you understand me?

Excuse me?

You made the claim that the Catholic Church is directly responsible for the low usage of contraception in Africa. You then admitted that you have no evidence that supports the claim you made.

You then commented that you believe the birth rate is too high in Africa and that you think high rates of STIs in Africa are problematic. I suggested that education might help address both those problems.

You also complained that, in your opinion, Africa is a "shit show" and you implied that you don't think you're getting bang for your buck when it comes to providing financial aid to Africa.

I suggested to you that, perhaps the "shit show" aspects of Africa have something to do with the legacy of colonialism on that continent.

Now you accuse me of "shifting the blame". I assume that's because you think that Africans are solely responsible for their predicament and that the history of European colonialism in the continent has nothing to do with it.

Do you want to now provide some evidence to support this latest thesis of yours? If you do, then we can discuss.

This section is just blurb, it is attacking the remnants of a simple argument turned into complex gobshite which ALWAYS ends in unproductive dialog that goes nowhere.

The more people write the more lies there is, simple fact, people lie. Keep it short and simple, much better James.

 

[TheVat]

One could survey the research literature on this topic and find stuff like this:

‘Pope as prevention’? Condom use by Catholics increased in... : AIDS

An abstract is unavailable.

journals.lww.com

 

[James R]

One could survey the research literature on this topic and find stuff like this:

‘Pope as prevention’? Condom use by Catholics increased in... : AIDS

An abstract is unavailable.

journals.lww.com

The article is behind a pay wall.

 

[James R]

davewhite04:

Firstly, me and exchemist sort of agreed that there is no official figures available, but if you've got a brain and more importantly not a grudge against whoever you're talking to then using the links to evidence(that I posted a couple of posts ago) then correlating the evidence should land you in a position that says, yes Catholics are causing unneeded suffering, and holding development back. If it doesn't, that's your issue or prerogative.

A few matters here.

First, I have nowhere claimed that the Catholic prohibition on contraception is not a contributor to the spread of STIs and likely to higher rates of unwanted pregnancy in Africa.

Your claim, however, was much stronger than that. You said "The vast majority sexually transmitted diseases are directly a result of the Catholic churches belief in the use of no protection." (my emphasis)

I merely asked you for evidence that supports your claim. I recognise that it might be difficult to support such a blanket claim about causation, of course. But that's not my fault. You made the claim, not me. If you can't support it, then use this as a learning experience. Don't make extravagant claims that you can't support in future. Stick to what you can show to be the case. Or you can say "I think that...", but appreciate that the next question you get is then likely to be "Why do you think that?"

As to your personal insult directed at me - your implication that I don't have a brain - that is unnecessary and it makes you look small, davewhite04. You ought to stop that.

As to your accusation that I bear a grudge against you, what is that all about? Do you think I should bear a grudge against you (which could be reasonable)? Or (more likely), why do you think that I unreasonably bear a grudge against you? To be clear: I don't bear a grudge against you. But I'd like to know why you think I do.

You just twist what people say continuously with no problem doing so, can you understand me?

What did I twist about what you said? I quoted you. I asked you questions to help clarify your position. You didn't like the questions.

This section is just blurb, it is attacking the remnants of a simple argument turned into complex gobshite which ALWAYS ends in unproductive dialog that goes nowhere.

Well, no. I summarised where this started and how it has gone since then. I was accurate and concise. Moreover I note that you haven't tried to justify your claim that I somehow "shifted the blame" for something or other. You shouldn't keep making claims that you can't support.

The more people write the more lies there is, simple fact, people lie. Keep it short and simple, much better James.

Now you're accusing me of lying. Be specific. Where did I lie? What did I lie about?

Don't make accusations you can't support. This sort of thing is getting to be a bad habit with you.

 

[TheVat]

The article is behind a pay wall.

I posted it because the title,

Condom use by Catholics increased in five HIV endemic countries in sub-Saharan Africa during Pope Benedict XVI's tenure​

served to suggest there was some complexity to the overall picture of Catholicism and prophylactic usage. I acknowledge it's unfortunate that this page cannot even provide an abstract that might help contextualize the information. If they want researchers to pay a subscription they should offer them some sense of what's on their content platform.

 

[davewhite04]

davewhite04:

A few matters here.

First, I have nowhere claimed that the Catholic prohibition on contraception is not a contributor to the spread of STIs and likely to higher rates of unwanted pregnancy in Africa.

Well James, we AGREE! Did you look at the links I provided? What's the population of Australia and UK put together? 200million? Nah, African Catholics 200million... that's a lot of unprotected sex. Kids born with HIV is just the tip of the iceberg.

Your claim, however, was much stronger than that. You said "The vast majority sexually transmitted diseases are directly a result of the Catholic churches belief in the use of no protection." (my emphasis)

If I said that it was an unintentional lie.

I merely asked you for evidence that supports your claim. I recognise that it might be difficult to support such a blanket claim about causation, of course. But that's not my fault. You made the claim, not me. If you can't support it, then use this as a learning experience. Don't make extravagant claims that you can't support in future. Stick to what you can show to be the case. Or you can say "I think that...", but appreciate that the next question you get is then likely to be "Why do you think that?"

I can't prove what I unintentionally lied about.

As to your personal insult directed at me - your implication that I don't have a brain - that is unnecessary and it makes you look small, davewhite04. You ought to stop that.

No it wasn't James, there's a communication problem. It was like a metaphor of someone who can't understand the point in question. It doesn't mean you have literally no brain so don't take that literally, I think you've probably got a brain.

As to your accusation that I bear a grudge against you, what is that all about? Do you think I should bear a grudge against you (which could be reasonable)? Or (more likely), why do you think that I unreasonably bear a grudge against you? To be clear: I don't bear a grudge against you. But I'd like to know why you think I do.

I don't know James, but there has been a bit of tension there, don't know why I admire you more than anyone else here due to the fact that you have ran these forums for 20 years+ and you haven't really changed much. Sciforums is important I think and it seems like if you weren't here, sciforums wouldn't be.

What did I twist about what you said? I quoted you. I asked you questions to help clarify your position. You didn't like the questions.

I can't remember now. Forget about, I think I understand our situation, communication.

Well, no. I summarised where this started and how it has gone since then. I was accurate and concise. Moreover I note that you haven't tried to justify your claim that I somehow "shifted the blame" for something or other. You shouldn't keep making claims that you can't support.

James do you think I would of intentionally blamed the Catholic church for ALL the stis etc. in Africa? Hopefully now you might understand what I meant.

Now you're accusing me of lying. Be specific. Where did I lie? What did I lie about?

I don't think you are lying, I've changed my position.

Don't make accusations you can't support. This sort of thing is getting to be a bad habit with you.

 

[James R]

Okay, davewhite04. I got all that. Let's forget about it and move on with our lives.