Africa, condoms and the Catholic Church...

[exchemist]

Further input regarding the ethics of the Catholic church in Africa is welcome.

As you can probably guess, when it comes to no protection or birth control and the double standards of the Catholic church and some of its followers in the west, I can't agree with the Catholic church in the slightest. As far as I'm concerned, the massive spikes of stds and births in Africa isn't simply the Muslims and other Christians and a handful of non believers fault, the Catholic church has to take blame too.

It's ethics in this context is rotten. imo.

Also, why does the no condom rule exist? Jesus didn't mention it, I remember Jacob or one of the chars in the old testament *pulling out* and God got angry because He had plans for Jacob's(or whoever) seed. This proves that *pulling out* happened then, the only reason God was unhappy that J pulled out is because he had plans for the seed and Js relationship with his servant girl. I'll get the verse...

The whole thing about birth control and the church is to do with a dodgy theological concept called Natural Law. The church has always had an uneasy relationship with sexuality. I blame St. Paul ultimately for that. Certainly there is nothing in the gospels justifying it. It does not help that there are no women priest in the Catholic church, nor even married priests for the most of the last millennium (though priests were able to marry in earlier times, I understand.)

 

[davewhite04]

The whole thing about birth control and the church is to do with a dodgy theological concept called Natural Law. The church has always had an uneasy relationship with sexuality. I blame St. Paul ultimately for that. Certainly there is nothing in the gospels justifying it. It does not help that there are no women priest in the Catholic church, nor even married priests for the most of the last millennium (though priests were able to marry in earlier times, I understand.)

I find the marriage for bishops to be outdated, even though child abuse is rampant elsewhere I think allowing priests to marry would go a fair way to help the child abuse issues it has. You could say that for a host of other institutions too.

When I think of Africa I'm reminded on Jesus' teaching of those who build their house on sand rather than rock... I think Africa is building on sand in this case, because it can't establish itself until it sorts out the stds and, I will add, birth rates. It's a black hole as far as money goes it seems. Back in the eitgties when I started donating it said the problem will be gone by 2000.... seemed like a lifetime away in the eighties to a young kid, now it's 2026 and even though I support Africa still, I realise it must be hell in parts still.

 

[exchemist]

I find the marriage for bishops to be outdated, even though child abuse is rampant elsewhere I think allowing priests to marry would go a fair way to help the child abuse issues it has. You could say that for a host of other institutions too.

When I think of Africa I'm reminded on Jesus' teaching of those who build their house on sand rather than rock... I think Africa is building on sand in this case, because it can't establish itself until it sorts out the stds and, I will add, birth rates. It's a black hole as far as money goes it seems. Back in the eitgties when I started donating it said the problem will be gone by 2000.... seemed like a lifetime away in the eighties to a young kid, now it's 2026 and even though I support Africa still, I realise it must be hell in parts still.

I think it is doing a lot better than you think, actually. But it's true many countries are still bedevilled by corruption and tribal strife.

 

[TheVat]

Had a feeling, seeing thread title, there would be some contention and some logic debris. My spouse is Catholic - AFAICT, getting all Catholics on the same page about anything is like trying to teach synchronized swimming to cats. There are other religious denominations, like Mormons, Eastern Orthodox, or ultraorthodox Jews, which favor fertility without artificial curbs. (Which is why Mormons in the US have grown from a few hundred thousand to almost 7 million in the past century) (And Israel's political landscape has changed considerably) For a philosophy thread, seems like the question is how to reconcile doctrines formulated from a different era (when Earth was far less populated and infant/child mortality was much higher and societies were predominantly agrarian and labor-intensive) with a planet now groaning under the burden of 8.2 billion people. I think education helps - informed citizens can apply critical thinking skills to the problems of having a large family. The problem now is ignorance not any one particular faith. (And also the toxic and primitive notion that reproducing more than some disfavored rival sect(s) is somehow virtuous.)

 

[exchemist]

Had a feeling, seeing thread title, there would be some contention and some logic debris. My spouse is Catholic - AFAICT, getting all Catholics on the same page about anything is like trying to teach synchronized swimming to cats. There are other religious denominations, like Mormons, Eastern Orthodox, or ultraorthodox Jews, which favor fertility without artificial curbs. (Which is why Mormons in the US have grown from a few hundred thousand to almost 7 million in the past century) (And Israel's political landscape has changed considerably) For a philosophy thread, seems like the question is how to reconcile doctrines formulated from a different era (when Earth was far less populated and infant/child mortality was much higher and societies were predominantly agrarian and labor-intensive) with a planet now groaning under the burden of 8.2 billion people. I think education helps - informed citizens can apply critical thinking skills to the problems of having a large family. The problem now is ignorance not any one particular faith. (And also the toxic and primitive notion that reproducing more than some disfavored rival sect(s) is somehow virtuous.)

Women’s emancipation has been the game changer on this issue. Lecturing people about natural law has limited appeal to any woman with aspirations beyond nappy changing and the kitchen sink. As you point out, it dates from the world of two centuries ago, in which women were domestic and infant mortality was 50%. The Catholic church is by design very, very slow to adapt. This has in many ways been a strength and a source of grudging respect for its constancy. But on this one it has got it wrong. And in fact the birth control policy only crystallised quite recently, in the early c.20th if I’m not mistaken - so already out of date from the start, really. So it can hardly be presented as a core doctrine of the faith. In fact a change was I think recommended by a committee of clergy, to John Paul II - who rejected it, frustratingly for everyone.

 

[Pinball1970]

Saying "condoms are bad," morally is a stupid thing to say if you are in a position of power and influence.

Especially to a congregation that may not have had the best education, these things can filter down.

Why Africa is still a complete shit show despite 2.6 trillion in aid in my life time, is not just down to the pope however.

 

[Wizard of Whatever]

The ones disallowing condoms are the same ones disallowing abortions for any reason at any time.

 

[James R]

davewhite04:

As I've already concluded with exchemist that the evidence is not obtainable...

1. You admit you have no evidence for your claim. That is a good start.
2. Why make claims for which you have no evidence?

 

[James R]

I think Africa is building on sand in this case, because it can't establish itself until it sorts out the stds and, I will add, birth rates.

Education is the solution. Africa doesn't get enough of it.

I think education helps - informed citizens can apply critical thinking skills to the problems of having a large family. The problem now is ignorance not any one particular faith.

Agree.

Why Africa is still a complete shit show despite 2.6 trillion in aid in my life time, is not just down to the pope however.

Part of it is the legacy of colonialism. But's that's not the entire story.

 

[Olga]

Saying "condoms are bad," morally is a stupid thing to say if you are in a position of power and influence.

Especially to a congregation that may not have had the best education, these things can filter down.

Why Africa is still a complete shit show despite 2.6 trillion in aid in my life time, is not just down to the pope however.

Дело в "халяве". Африке помогают все, зачем им развиваться? Вы знали, что Африка выбрасывает продуктов питания больше всех в мире? Те самые продукты, которые им шлют "гуманитаркой".

 

[James R]

Did you know that Africa emits the most food in the world?

No. The world's largest agricultural producers are China (#1) and India (#2). The continent that produces the most food is Asia.

 

[Olga]

No. The world's largest agricultural producers are China (#1) and India (#2). The continent that produces the most food is Asia.

Джеймс, выбрось свой переводчик! Он же уже просто издевается над тобой, переводя вообще другой текст. Я нигде не написала о производстве сельхозтоваров.

 

[davewhite04]

Saying "condoms are bad," morally is a stupid thing to say if you are in a position of power and influence.

Especially to a congregation that may not have had the best education, these things can filter down.

Why Africa is still a complete shit show despite 2.6 trillion in aid in my life time, is not just down to the pope however.

I agree. What I have to say is is Christians(inc Catholics) should not be a bad influence in any department never mind the pain and suffering Christianity is causing in Africa.

Religion is my problem Pinball, I think Jesus would simply be angry at the actions of his so called followers.

Have you heard of Bill Hicks? I love him, great comedian. One of his lines is when Jesus comes back he's coming back with guns.

 

[davewhite04]

davewhite04:

1. You admit you have no evidence for you claim. That is a good start.
2. Why make claims for which you have no evidence?

1) Yes, but do you think teaching Africans unsafe sex in a country with explosions of stds is a good thing?

2) What evidence do you want?

 

[davewhite04]

Education is the solution. Africa doesn't get enough of it.

Education in what?

Part of it is the legacy of colonialism. But's that's not the entire story.

Shifting the blame eh... I'm on about the here and now, and the simple fact is that Africa is suffering from stds and birth control and the Catholic church support no condoms which is ethically irresponsible and could be construed as evil.

 

[davewhite04]

Had a feeling, seeing thread title, there would be some contention and some logic debris. My spouse is Catholic - AFAICT, getting all Catholics on the same page about anything is like trying to teach synchronized swimming to cats. There are other religious denominations, like Mormons, Eastern Orthodox, or ultraorthodox Jews, which favor fertility without artificial curbs. (Which is why Mormons in the US have grown from a few hundred thousand to almost 7 million in the past century) (And Israel's political landscape has changed considerably) For a philosophy thread, seems like the question is how to reconcile doctrines formulated from a different era (when Earth was far less populated and infant/child mortality was much higher and societies were predominantly agrarian and labor-intensive) with a planet now groaning under the burden of 8.2 billion people. I think education helps - informed citizens can apply critical thinking skills to the problems of having a large family. The problem now is ignorance not any one particular faith. (And also the toxic and primitive notion that reproducing more than some disfavored rival sect(s) is somehow virtuous.)

Enjoyed reading this, but what's it in response to?

The double standards I talk about regarding the Catholic church is its western followers DO practice safe sex or birth control using condoms so why can't the African people?

 

[TheVat]

Enjoyed reading this, but what's it in response to?

The double standards I talk about regarding the Catholic church is its western followers DO practice safe sex or birth control using condoms so why can't the African people?

Well my post was trying to address one possible cause, which is the relative shortage of information in some areas of Africa. Ignorance renders people more susceptible to the gaslighting of religious figures who are blinded by their dogma.

Elon Musk/Turnip's hatchet job on USAID will make matters worse.

 

[Wizard of Whatever]

davewhite04:

1. You admit you have no evidence for you claim. That is a good start.
2. Why make claims for which you have no evidence?

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

 

[davewhite04]

Well my post was trying to address one possible cause, which is the relative shortage of information in some areas of Africa. Ignorance renders people more susceptible to the gaslighting of religious figures who are blinded by their dogma.

Elon Musk/Turnip's hatchet job on USAID will make matters worse.

My mate has got an excellent toilet brush, the brush is turnip head and his body the shaft. he's good at that job.

 

[TheVat]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

This has been addressed before.

Sagan often used this line in the context of scientific reasoning and scepticism. Bear in mind however this principle only applies when something could, in principle, leave evidence, but we haven’t found it yet. Such as extraterrestrial life.

But Hitchens Razor suggests that when some unsupported claim is offered, without evidence and the burden of proof being on the person making a claim, we may dismiss it. There's a telepathic poodle which lives in my chimney. We don't need to waste our time on trying to disprove this, we can just dismiss this on lack of evidence.