Africa, condoms and the Catholic Church...

[exchemist]

Don't expect the Church to revise its stance if it feels that non-prevented births and anti-abortion are increasing its membership. Despite whatever the disease rates and other hazards might be contributing in terms of suffering and numbers loss.

Worldwide Catholic population hits 1.4 billion
https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/262883/worldwide-catholic-population-hits-14-billion

EXCERPT: Africa has registered the greatest growth, with the Catholic population on the continent increasing by 3.31%, from 272 million in 2022 to 281 million in 2023. This growth is particularly dynamic, with countries such as the Democratic Republic of Congo, which leads the region with nearly 55 million Catholics, and others such as Nigeria, Uganda, Tanzania, and Kenya, which have also experienced significant increases in the number of faithful. Africa currently represents 20% of the world’s Catholic population.

Catholics For Choice
https://www.catholicsforchoice.org/resource-library/humanae-vitae/humanae-vitae-and-global-health/

EXCERPTS: Today, an estimated 214 million women globally have an unmet need for modern contraception, which contributes to high rates of maternal mortality. A wide-scale study found that contraceptive use reduced maternal mortality by almost 44 percent. Increasing the contraception prevalence rate in low-performing developing countries would not only avert some 27 deaths per 100,000 women, but would “reduce the burden on [the] maternal health system for serving more women effectively and efficiently.”

Despite this evidence, the Catholic hierarchy is a vociferous opponent of modern contraception on the African continent, which has the world’s lowest rate of contraceptive use. [...] Bishops routinely make false charges that modern contraception is harmful to women’s health, that the increased use of contraception leads to increased levels of abortion and that international family planning programs are western plots to destroy African society. This is especially concerning because Catholicism is growing fastest in Africa—the Catholic population on the continent has increased by 238 percent since 1980 and Catholics are predicted to account for nearly 25 percent of the population by 2040.

Catholic bishops have been especially influential in promoting these views in countries with large Catholic populations, such as Angola, Congo, Gabon, Kenya, Nigeria, Rwanda and Uganda, which have persistently high rates of unmet need for contraception. In Nigeria, Catholic bishops refuse to acknowledge the role that modern contraceptives play in reducing maternal mortality...

[...] As a result, support for contraceptive use among African Catholics is persistently lower than in other parts of the world. The same 2014 survey that found that 78 percent of Catholics worldwide support contraceptives, found that only 44 percent of Catholics in Congo and 43 percent in Uganda back modern methods of contraception. A 2014 Pew survey found some of the lowest levels of support for contraceptives in the world in Nigeria and Ghana, where 54 and 52 percent of the population respectively say using contraceptives is “morally unacceptable.”
_

Yes, but this is about maternal mortality, not STIs.

This type of thing is definitely one of the undeniable ill effects of the absurd Catholic teaching against birth control. There is also the matter of poverty: larger families are obviously harder to support. (Though in less industrialised societies children seem generally thought a great blessing, regardless of standard of living and irrespective of religious belief.) It is noteworthy how widely Catholics support birth control, in defiance of the official position of the church: 78% worldwide, though admittedly only ~50% in African countries. The clergy are going to have to come round to it in the end. (By the way, I see you slip in another anti-Catholic canard: the one about the birth conrol teaching being in order to breed more Catholics. That is obviously ballocks.)

Coming back to the subject of STI prevalence, the issue in Africa seems to be mainly cultural: there is more sleeping around, cf. Pinball1970 's Wiki link on HIV. This, needless to say, is 100% against church teaching and considered a lot more serious than using birth control. So I find it odd to suggest that Catholics are blithely ignoring the injunction to be faithful to their partners - but then suddenly coming over all religious when it's time to put on a condom!

 

[C C]

[...] Coming back to the subject of STI prevalence, the issue in Africa seems to be mainly cultural: there is more sleeping around, cf. Pinball1970 's Wiki link on HIV. This, needless to say, is 100% against church teaching and considered a lot more serious than using birth control. So I find it odd to suggest that Catholics are blithely ignoring the injunction to be faithful to their partners - but then suddenly coming over all religious when it's time to put on a condom!

In effect: Indigenous or regional cultural practices being heavily responsible, that pertained prior to Catholic influence. Or similar results ensuing, even if those habits are just the result of anomie after contact with the commercialized West disrupting and eroding the traditional community systems, values, ties (whatever).
_

 

[Tiassa]

So I find it odd to suggest that Catholics are blithely ignoring the injunction to be faithful to their partners - but then suddenly coming over all religious when it's time to put on a condom!

Of course it's odd.

Except when it's not: It's both "odd" in seeming inconsistent and even contradictory, but not so much in that it's fairly common behavior. Lots of people carve out a safe space where their preferred superstition is protected against reality.

Sure, we can blame Catholics for carrying and thus legitimizing such behavior, but it's kind of an abstruse discussion because someone would have, anyway. Ossification is one of the trappings of success.

 

[Wizard of Whatever]

Anyone who obeys the Vatican deserves what they get.

 

[davewhite04]

Look, I have tried in good faith to look up information on this topic and I have posted the results of my (admittedly brief) researches. I didn't find anything to support your claim. What I did find was a related piece of research, on the UK, that suggested your claim might be implausible.

So I asked you where you got your information. Three times. And you have come back with zippo.

What am I to think?

The figures relating to the Catholic church(money spent, stds amongst Catholics...) are unclear, for various reasons not some conspiracy.

This is about ethics exchemist, so it's not about numbers. It's about not allowing an std infested population to wear protection. Then spending billions of pounds looking into cures, medication, hospitals, best thing is schools that teach secular subjects.

Then there's the suffering it causes, especially new-born's they haven't got much chance without an std, never mind with one.

exchemist, would you defend this if you weren't a Catholic?

 

[exchemist]

The figures relating to the Catholic church(money spent, stds amongst Catholics...) are unclear, for various reasons not some conspiracy.

This is about ethics exchemist, so it's not about numbers. It's about not allowing an std infested population to wear protection. Then spending billions of pounds looking into cures, medication, hospitals, best thing is schools that teach secular subjects.

Then there's the suffering it causes, especially new-born's they haven't got much chance without an std, never mind with one.

exchemist, would you defend this if you weren't a Catholic?

Except your imagined scenario is ballocks. The Catholic church does not dictate what countries do about contraception. It only instructs members of its own church. As I have explained already, those Catholics who are strict enough to follow the teaching on birth control will as a rule not be spreading STIs, as they will also follow the teaching about being sexually faithful to their partners, i.e. monogamous.

Do you really not understand this simple point?

So there's nothing to defend. It's just untrue.

 

[davewhite04]

Except your imagined scenario is ballocks. The Catholic church does not dictate what countries do about contraception. It only instructs members of its own church. As I have explained already, those Catholics who are strict enough to follow the teaching on birth control will as a rule not be spreading STIs, as they will also follow the teaching about being sexually faithful to their partners, i.e. monogamous.

Do you really not understand this simple point?

So there's nothing to defend. It's just untrue.

Unbelievable.

As Cypher would say: "Ignorance is bliss".

 

[exchemist]

Unbelievable.

As Cypher would say: "Ignorance is bliss".

You are not engaging -at all - with what I am saying.

How do you think it possible for the Catholic church to deny condoms to people in Africa who are NOT observant Catholics?

 

[davewhite04]

You are not engaging -at all - with what I am saying.

How do you think it possible for the Catholic church to deny condoms to people in Africa who are NOT observant Catholics?

I am describing the problem, I have provided numbers, it's up to you to decide whether or not you agree with the ethics of the Catholic church?

This is the type of rubbish that made me not only remove religion from my mind as it is all poisonous, but speak out against it when I get the chance.

I rejected religion but not God. I'm convinced I made the right decision everyday.

I'm not blaming the whole problem on the Catholic church, you seem to think no Catholic Africans catch stds.

 

[exchemist]

I am describing the problem, I have provided numbers, it's up to you to decide whether or not you agree with the ethics of the Catholic church?

This is the type of rubbish that made me not only remove religion from my mind as it is all poisonous, but speak out against it when I get the chance.

I rejected religion but not God. I'm convinced I made the right decision everyday.

I'm not blaming the whole problem on the Catholic church, you seem to think no Catholic Africans catch stds.

I do indeed suspect only few observant African Catholics catch STIs, for the reasons I have given in this thread. This is to some degree backed up the finding of the UK study I quoted, that Catholics have a particularly low incidence of STIs. It is because practising Catholics tend, not always of course, but usually, to be faithful to their sexual partners.

You have provided no relevant numbers. The only number you have mentioned is the number of Catholics in Africa. That tells us nothing at all.

P.S. This is not a defence of the Catholic church, it is just science. Where is the data that shows the church is responsible for STIs in Africa, and what is the logic that connects the two? Just saying there is a lot of STI in Africa,and there are a lot of Catholics there too, is not evidence for a causal relationship.

 

[davewhite04]

I do indeed suspect only few observant African Catholics catch STIs, for the reasons I have given in this thread. This is to some degree backed up the finding of the UK study I quoted, that Catholics have a particularly low incidence of STIs. It is because practising Catholics tend, not always of course, but usually, to be faithful to their sexual partners.

You have provided no relevant numbers. The only number you have mentioned is the number of Catholics in Africa. That tells us nothing at all.

P.S. This is not a defence of the Catholic church, it is just science. Where is the data that shows the church is responsible for STIs in Africa, and what is the logic that connects the two? Just saying there is a lot of STI in Africa,and there are a lot of Catholics there too, is not evidence for a causal relationship.

It's difficult to know without clear numbers.

Most of the rest of Africa are Christian and over 40% Muslim.

Who's responsible for the explosion of std's in your opinion?

 

[exchemist]

It's difficult to know without clear numbers.

Most of the rest of Africa are Christian and over 40% Muslim.

Who's responsible for the explosion of std's in your opinion?

Not who. What. Read my post 21, C C 's reply in post 22, and the Wiki link on HIV in Africa Pinball1970 provided in post 9.

It seems there are long-standing cultural issues in sub-Saharan Africa, most likely long predating the Christian missionaries, which lead to more sleeping around than in many other societies. The Wiki article suggests it is this, combined with unwillingness of men to use condoms, for reasons that have nothing to do with religion, that leads to the spread of STIs.

This sleeping around is frowned upon by both Christianity and Islam, of course, so presumably adherents of these religions will be less disposed to do that than the others.

The position of the Catholic church on birth control is, in my view and actually that of most Catholics (see stats in post 21), ridiculous and indefensible. As I said in post 21, it will have to change. There was also some discussion of its ill effects in that post and preceding ones. But STIs are not among them. By all means criticise the church for genuine wrongs, but please don't throw around accusations you can't support.

 

[Wizard of Whatever]

From what I've read the church isn't against natural forms of birth control, only artificial ones

 

[James R]

davewhite04:

OK lots of deflection, but I've asked you three times now to substantiate your claim about the Catholic church being responsible for the prevalence of STIs in Africa, and you have failed to come up with anything. I conclude you have no basis for your claim.

Yeah, join the other ignorant ones hiding behind the "bigotry" shit, which you love to accuse people of.

You're being purposefully ignorant, you read up on it or show sources.

You made the claim that "The vast majority sexually transmitted diseases are directly a result of the Catholic churches belief in the use of no protection."

Please present some evidence for your claim or withdraw it.

Also, please apologise to exchemist for your false accusation that he is "being purposefully ignorant".

You made the claim. You support it. If you fail to either (1) present some evidence or (2) admit that you don't have suitable evidence for your claim, I will issue you a warning for trolling.

Please do one of these two things in your next post to this thread. If you do not address this matter here, but go on to post elsewhere on this forum, you will similarly be warned for trolling.

 

[exchemist]

davewhite04:


You made the claim that "The vast majority sexually transmitted diseases are directly a result of the Catholic churches belief in the use of no protection."

Please present some evidence for your claim or withdraw it.

Also, please apologise to exchemist for your false accusation that he is "being purposefully ignorant".

You made the claim. You support it. If you fail to either (1) present some evidence or (2) admit that you don't have suitable evidence for your claim, I will issue you a warning for trolling.

Please do one of these two things in your next post to this thread. If you do not address this matter here, but go on to post elsewhere on this forum, you will similarly be warned for trolling.

It’s OK James, no apology required by me. This poster has his own struggles in life. I just want to avoid him throwing around accusations that appear to derive from prejudice rather than evidence or reason.

 

[James R]

It’s OK James, no apology required by me. This poster has his own struggles in life. I just want to avoid him throwing around accusations that appear to derive from prejudice rather than evidence or reason.

Having his own struggles in life is no excuse for making false accusations against people when they ask him to support claims that he has made.

Instead of doubling down and becoming belligerent, he could just admit that he had no evidence for his claim.

Anyway, I'll wait for his response before taking any further action.

 

[exchemist]

Having his own struggles in life is no excuse for making false accusations against people when they ask him to support claims that he has made.

Instead of doubling down and becoming belligerent, he could just admit that he had no evidence for his claim.

Anyway, I'll wait for his response before taking any further action.

Fair enough. He's told us he is bipolar so I kind of understand why he might go off the deep end a bit unreasonably from time to time. That's all I meant.

 

[davewhite04]

davewhite04:


You made the claim that "The vast majority sexually transmitted diseases are directly a result of the Catholic churches belief in the use of no protection.

You really are a piece of work... why are you asking dumb questions to me defending Catholics? Do you hate me THAT much?

It is a direct result of not wearing condoms, do you think the atheists wear condoms?

As I've already concluded with exchemist that the evidence is not obtainable but common sense tells you that Catholics are transmitting stds as a direct result of their no protection policy. Who do you blame? The Muslims?

The rest of your post is the usual threats. Go and cool off maaatey.

 

[davewhite04]

Fair enough. He's told us he is bipolar so I kind of understand why he might go off the deep end a bit unreasonably from time to time. That's all I meant.

Hi exchemist,

I didn't aim this at you, maybe I did it was just something that has and does bug me. The Catholic church does many good things that comfortably iron out its bad things. I don't hate Catholics, how could I? Half my family are Catholic! Apologies if I came on too strong or with not enough evidence whatever, I have learnt from you in this thread and that's helped my understanding of the situation.

 

[davewhite04]

Further input regarding the ethics of the Catholic church in Africa is welcome.

As you can probably guess, when it comes to no protection or birth control and the double standards of the Catholic church and some of its followers in the west, I can't agree with the Catholic church in the slightest. As far as I'm concerned, the massive spikes of stds and births in Africa isn't simply the Muslims and other Christians and a handful of non believers fault, the Catholic church has to take blame too.

It's ethics in this context is rotten. imo.

Also, why does the no condom rule exist? Jesus didn't mention it, I remember Jacob or one of the chars in the old testament *pulling out* and God got angry because He had plans for Jacob's(or whoever) seed. This proves that *pulling out* happened then, the only reason God was unhappy that J pulled out is because he had plans for the seed and Js relationship with his servant girl. I'll get the verse...

Genesis chapter 38, verses 8-10