Africa, condoms and the Catholic Church...

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davewhite04

Valued Senior Member
One thing that really pisses me of is the Catholic view that birth control should not be used hence no condoms in Africa(Or any birth control).

My problem is this.

The Catholic Church spend billions of its followers money fixing these problems that they directly caused!?

The institution bears ethical responsibility, do you think?

Has anyone else pondered this?

EDIT: I did miss out the fact that not using condoms spreads unknown amount of sexually transmitted diseases, many affecting new-borns. This is the main problem not overpopulation, which is also a problem. Africa can't develop till they are taught lessons like birth control and std control, the Catholic church does a lot more damage in this regard than anyone, how many lives lost? affected?

I can't see Jesus agreeing with you on this(Catholic person).
 
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davewhite04 said:
One thing that really pisses me of is the Catholic view that birth control should not be used hence no condoms in Africa(Or any birth control).

My problem is this.

The Catholic Church spend billions of its followers money fixing these problems that they directly caused!?

The institution bears ethical responsibility, do you think?

Has anyone else pondered this?
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Yes of course, this is an old chestnut. The traditional teaching on birth control is hopelessly out of date - and in fact very widely ignored by Catholics. But I think it might be useful to clarify what social problems you have in mind. I guess poverty of large families is one, and the holding back opportunity for women tied to domesticity by children may be another. However global overpopulation, once thought to be a looming disaster, now seems to be an overblown fear. The world’s population is expected to plateau in the next half century and indeed many countries are now worried that their birth rate is too low.
 
exchemist said:
Yes of course, this is an old chestnut. The traditional teaching on birth control is hopelessly out of date - and in fact very widely ignored by Catholics. But I think it might be useful to clarify what social problems you have in mind. I guess poverty of large families is one, and the holding back opportunity for women tied to domesticity by children may be another. However global overpopulation, once thought to be a looming disaster, now seems to be an overblown fear. The world’s population is expected to plateau in the next half century and indeed many countries are now worried that their birth rate is too low.
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Not good enough.

Do you realise how much suffering this causes in Africa? You didn't mention once, just lauded at how "overblown" something was.

You can't justify this by brushing it off as not really a problem elsewhere(even though this is about Africa).

Poor post, no constructive debate material, you went off subject asap.
 
davewhite04 said:
Not good enough.

Do you realise how much suffering this causes in Africa? You didn't mention once, just lauded at how "overblown" something was.

You can't justify this by brushing it off as not really a problem elsewhere(even though this is about Africa).

Poor post, no constructive debate material, you went off subject asap.
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OK what specific suffering in Africa are you talking about, that results from the Catholic church’s birth control teaching? I am not trying to disagree, just to get clear what we are talking about.
 
exchemist said:
OK what specific suffering in Africa are you talking about, that results from the Catholic church’s birth control teaching? I am not trying to disagree, just to get clear what we are talking about.
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The vast majority sexually transmitted diseases are directly a result of the Catholic churches belief in the use of no protection.
 
davewhite04 said:
The vast majority sexually transmitted diseases are directly a result of the Catholic churches belief in the use of no protection.
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Really? What proportion of STDs in Africa is contracted by practising Catholics? Don’t forget the church also teaches that promiscuity is sinful. I’d be slightly surprised if “the vast majority” of STDs are caught by people obeying the church’s teaching. It seems to me far more likely that most STDS will be transmitted by young men and prostitutes not affiliated any particular church.

But I realise I could be wrong. What sources of evidence are you relying on?
 
Well about 20% of Africa is Catholic, out of nearly 2 billion, the others are Christian or Muslim. They haven't got much hope tbh. I've been paying for water pumps in Africa since the eighties(when I had money).
 
davewhite04 said:
Well about 20% of Africa is Catholic, out of nearly 2 billion, the others are Christian or Muslim. They haven't got much hope tbh. I've been paying for water pumps in Africa since the eighties(when I had money).
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You paying for water pumps does not address the issue. Catholics are Christian by the way, the largest Christian denomination by far in fact, approx half of all Christians worldwide: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations

I had a look for something correlating STDs in Africa (or STIs as they are now apparently known) with religious adherence, but have drawn a blank so far. Though there was a paper suggesting fewer Muslims get HIV, possibly due to men being circumcised.

I also came across this: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33783671/
This is data on the UK prevalence of STIs. The findings are in line with what I would expect, namely that those affiliated to a religious denomination have less STI infection than average. This is apparently especially marked among Catholics.
 
exchemist said:
You paying for water pumps does not address the issue. Catholics are Christian by the way, the largest Christian denomination by far in fact, approx half of all Christians worldwide: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations

I had a look for something correlating STDs in Africa (or STIs as they are now apparently known) with religious adherence, but have drawn a blank so far. Though there was a paper suggesting fewer Muslims get HIV, possibly due to men being circumcised.

I also came across this: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33783671/
This is data on the UK prevalence of STIs. The findings are in line with what I would expect, namely that those affiliated to a religious denomination have less STI infection than average. This is apparently especially marked among Catholics.
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If you want to bow out exchemist. I don't really want to upset someone I like.

20% of Catholics are African and live in Africa that's at least 200million?

The numbers are incredible... No western civilised person should allow this, I think it's disgusting, mind control(teaching men not to be men, ie practice wanking instead of sex properly).

This isn't the biggest problem with the Catholic church, but this is about "Would Jesus wear a condom?".
 
davewhite04 said:
If you want to bow out exchemist. I don't really want to upset someone I like.

20% of Catholics are African and live in Africa that's at least 200million?

The numbers are incredible... No western civilised person should allow this, I think it's disgusting, mind control(teaching men not to be men, ie practice wanking instead of sex properly).

This isn't the biggest problem with the Catholic church, but this is about "Would Jesus wear a condom?".
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You said: "the vast majority sexually transmitted diseases [in Africa] are directly a result of the Catholic churches belief in the use of no protection". Nothing you have subsequently posted supports this claim. Where do you get this from? Can you post a link so we can read it?

What are these numbers that are incredible?
 
exchemist said:
You said: "the vast majority sexually transmitted diseases [in Africa] are directly a result of the Catholic churches belief in the use of no protection". Nothing you have subsequently posted supports this claim. Where do you get this from? Can you post a link so we can read it?

What are these numbers that are incredible?
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200million Catholics practicing this as we speak, that's nearly three times the population of the UK. Incredible?
 
davewhite04 said:
200million Catholics practicing this as we speak, that's nearly three times the population of the UK. Incredible?
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Not really. Africa is a whole continent, after all. There are about 300 million Catholics in Europe. And double that in the Americas.

And what about the source of your claim about STIs being due to the Catholic church? Where do you get that from?
 
exchemist said:
Not really. Africa is a whole continent, after all. There are about 300 million Catholics in Europe. And double that in the Americas.

And what about the source of your claim about STIs being due to the Catholic church? Where do you get that from?
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Well condoms are decreasing HIV numbers, what do you expect in Africa, no sti's because they're Catholic? Is that your opinion?

You, being a sensible person cannot support the ethics of the Catholic church in this case, can you?

EDIT: Also, like you say, people in the west are lapsed when it comes to sex. Why be so severe with Africans? Is it a control thing? It's a bottomless pit.
 
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davewhite04 said:
Well condoms are decreasing HIV numbers, what do you expect in Africa, no sti's because they're Catholic? Is that your opinion?

You, being a sensible person cannot support the ethics of the Catholic church in this case, can you?

EDIT: Also, like you say, people in the west are lapsed when it comes to sex. Why be so severe with Africans? Is it a control thing? It's a bottomless pit.
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OK lots of deflection, but I've asked you three times now to substantiate your claim about the Catholic church being responsible for the prevalence of STIs in Africa, and you have failed to come up with anything. I conclude you have no basis for your claim.

So I'm inclined to write it off as just another minor example of good, old-fashioned English anti-Catholic bigotry, of the kind I have encountered at regular intervals in the course of a long life :). These canards get casually thrown around and eventually, by force of repetition, they become accepted as fact. Until someone asks what they are based on, that is.

Oh well.

But maybe another reader will come up with some data to support your contention. If so I'll revise my view.
 
exchemist said:
OK lots of deflection, but I've asked you three times now to substantiate your claim about the Catholic church being responsible for the prevalence of STIs in Africa, and you have failed to come up with anything. I conclude you have no basis for your claim.

So I'm inclined to write it off as just another minor example of good, old-fashioned English anti-Catholic bigotry, of the kind I have encountered at regular intervals in the course of a long life :). These canards get casually thrown around and eventually, by force of repetition, they become accepted as fact. Until someone asks what they are based on, that is.

Oh well.

But maybe another reader will come up with some data to support your contention. If so I'll revise my view.
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Yeah, join the other ignorant ones hiding behind the "bigotry" shit, which you love to accuse people of.

You're being purposefully ignorant, you read up on it or show sources.
 
davewhite04 said:
Yeah, join the other ignorant ones hiding behind the "bigotry" shit, which you love to accuse people of.

You're being purposefully ignorant, you read up on it or show sources.
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Look, I have tried in good faith to look up information on this topic and I have posted the results of my (admittedly brief) researches. I didn't find anything to support your claim. What I did find was a related piece of research, on the UK, that suggested your claim might be implausible.

So I asked you where you got your information. Three times. And you have come back with zippo.

What am I to think?
 
davewhite04 said:
[...] EDIT: I did miss out the fact that not using condoms spreads unknown amount of sexually transmitted diseases, many affecting new-borns. This is the main problem not overpopulation, which is also a problem. Africa can't develop till they are taught lessons like birth control and std control, the Catholic church does a lot more damage in this regard than anyone, how many lives lost? affected? [...]
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Don't expect the Church to revise its stance if it feels that non-prevented births and anti-abortion are increasing its membership. Despite whatever the disease rates and other hazards might be contributing in terms of suffering and numbers loss.

Worldwide Catholic population hits 1.4 billion
https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/262883/worldwide-catholic-population-hits-14-billion

EXCERPT: Africa has registered the greatest growth, with the Catholic population on the continent increasing by 3.31%, from 272 million in 2022 to 281 million in 2023. This growth is particularly dynamic, with countries such as the Democratic Republic of Congo, which leads the region with nearly 55 million Catholics, and others such as Nigeria, Uganda, Tanzania, and Kenya, which have also experienced significant increases in the number of faithful. Africa currently represents 20% of the world’s Catholic population.

Catholics For Choice
https://www.catholicsforchoice.org/resource-library/humanae-vitae/humanae-vitae-and-global-health/

EXCERPTS: Today, an estimated 214 million women globally have an unmet need for modern contraception, which contributes to high rates of maternal mortality. A wide-scale study found that contraceptive use reduced maternal mortality by almost 44 percent. Increasing the contraception prevalence rate in low-performing developing countries would not only avert some 27 deaths per 100,000 women, but would “reduce the burden on [the] maternal health system for serving more women effectively and efficiently.”

Despite this evidence, the Catholic hierarchy is a vociferous opponent of modern contraception on the African continent, which has the world’s lowest rate of contraceptive use. [...] Bishops routinely make false charges that modern contraception is harmful to women’s health, that the increased use of contraception leads to increased levels of abortion and that international family planning programs are western plots to destroy African society. This is especially concerning because Catholicism is growing fastest in Africa—the Catholic population on the continent has increased by 238 percent since 1980 and Catholics are predicted to account for nearly 25 percent of the population by 2040.

Catholic bishops have been especially influential in promoting these views in countries with large Catholic populations, such as Angola, Congo, Gabon, Kenya, Nigeria, Rwanda and Uganda, which have persistently high rates of unmet need for contraception. In Nigeria, Catholic bishops refuse to acknowledge the role that modern contraceptives play in reducing maternal mortality...

[...] As a result, support for contraceptive use among African Catholics is persistently lower than in other parts of the world. The same 2014 survey that found that 78 percent of Catholics worldwide support contraceptives, found that only 44 percent of Catholics in Congo and 43 percent in Uganda back modern methods of contraception. A 2014 Pew survey found some of the lowest levels of support for contraceptives in the world in Nigeria and Ghana, where 54 and 52 percent of the population respectively say using contraceptives is “morally unacceptable.”
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