A Wholistic Duality

wesmorris said:
All those whose council you seek, all those who you've ever loved have been actual believers. They do not daudle with black as you do. They ARE IT, and white is not okay. Thus you've twisted your view to accomodate the propaganda that supports black and denies white. Your mind however, develops discontinuities of which you are apparently at least vaguely aware, and you seek to avoid them, or patch them up so they appear as a smooth part of your mental landscape.

QUOTE]

In my world (and I was taking a particular example of something, no one believes in black as I do, or they they are the same as me in that black is part of their world but not all of their world, it means more to me than to them. My belief in black was not taught but brought about through experience and observation. I don't agree with all the definitions of black and I cannot entertain any ideas of white. I have a belief in black but accept I cannot know really what 'black' is? I just accept there is something undefinable about black that keeps me in a comfy place.

Odd analogy coming up!

Imagine marshmallows...I don't know how they are made or from what wharehouse they are made or who invented them, where the ingredients came from etc...but I like them and I indulge in them. Question my belief in marshmallows, say they are bad, not good for my health and I'll say....well in my view they are fine. I like them, they make me feel good. Gonna keep eating them and enjoying them. Tell myself they are 'good'. Tell myself I am right, you are wrong.

Thinking about it, this is what smokers do all the time. Smoking is bad for them, but they tell themselves it won't affect them or they deny the adverse affects to self and to others.

I guess what seperates black from white is 'comfort'.
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Quantum Quack said:
Just thinking about the 'ole yin yang symbol and how I have always felt it's normal depiction to be an slight error of philosophy.
Let me explain.
Usually the symbol shows to "tadpoles" of equal volume, a state of balance. Yet in life we do not wish for this balance for to have this balance movement is stopped. What I thought should be depcted is the two tadpoles slightly diffreent in volume so that a differential is demonstrated that allows for movement of perpetual change. What I see with the usual depiction, is stasis.

For instance when people practice chakra or yogic healing they often I feel make the mistake of striving for perfect balance when in fact what they should be striving for is a harmonious imbalance, or an imbalance that is more acceptable. To strive for perfect balance is tantamount to striving for death and I am sure this is not what people are really wanting to achieve.

To promote change or movement there has to be a differential in pressure or sufference. With out this differential stasis or "death" is the outcome. [ mind you in absolute the act of dying is a state of imbalance but death itself is perfect balance, or so I would hypothesise]

What do you think?
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yes i agree. it is like heart rythym, apparently it also is healthily irregular, a balanced one /beqt is a sign o danger and death. same with actual physical development and maintenance.
And see rthe way mental health movement apporached psychology. they seek this fictitious 'chemical balance' and thus seek drug away 'imbalance' which is natural healing.
the yin yang is very abstract. and we must always dig, the map AINT the territory
 
The problem with this line of thought is that it is, by design, leaving out information in order to arrive at a conclusion. As you said, collapsing the quantum proabilities into a reality - but you also must accept that it isn't the truth because it ignores the majority of all human experience.
Very little of what we operate on is fully yes or no.
It is like saying, in order to have sensibility, you must be either a carnivore or an herbivore, when you just saw a guy eating a burger with lettuce and tomato.
I wish things were as sensible as you put them, wes.

P.S. QQ re:yin yang - it is just as easily stated that there must be a balance for change, because without the balance we would very quickly be in a stagnated state of fully white or black.
 
let us look at positive and negative a moment/. these are very much polar related aren't they? and are TERMinals. in order for tem to be a CIRCuit dont they need to be EARTHED...?
the modus operani of modern culture is emphasis on the positive. and negativity is looked dow on, and they will get teir drugs out to try ad 're-positivize' any 'unacceptable' negative feelings---that 'spoil the game'---game being beingproductive, positive, heading for and keeping/expanding on 'success'

where's EARTH...what's happened to Earth? hmmmmwell, Eaqrth i suffering . thousands of species have gone extinct and are goingas i type. great foreats are disappearing, Nature is being polluted irreversiably with nuclear radioactivity, including depleted uranium. There is global warming, ane perpetual conflict and war and poverty worldwide. MUC distress for EARTH and community. So thrust for 'positivity' as pushed by Western values is actualy increasingnegativity all round, all the way down to actual Westerners themselves, many of whom are on psychiatric medication--supposedly trying to 'keep positive'!
 
duendy said:
let us look at positive and negative a moment/. these are very much polar related aren't they? and are TERMinals. in order for tem to be a CIRCuit dont they need to be EARTHED...?
the modus operani of modern culture is emphasis on the positive. and negativity is looked dow on, and they will get teir drugs out to try ad 're-positivize' any 'unacceptable' negative feelings---that 'spoil the game'---game being beingproductive, positive, heading for and keeping/expanding on 'success'

where's EARTH...what's happened to Earth? hmmmmwell, Eaqrth i suffering . thousands of species have gone extinct and are goingas i type. great foreats are disappearing, Nature is being polluted irreversiably with nuclear radioactivity, including depleted uranium. There is global warming, ane perpetual conflict and war and poverty worldwide. MUC distress for EARTH and community. So thrust for 'positivity' as pushed by Western values is actualy increasingnegativity all round, all the way down to actual Westerners themselves, many of whom are on psychiatric medication--supposedly trying to 'keep positive'!
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two things duendy,
1] the car battery analogy fails because one of the terminals is considered as earth however maybe a household three pin plug may be better.
2] The old saying comes to mind [ mine actually ]
"If you ignore reality it will bite you on the bum"
 
wesmorris said:
I was watching the sopranos the other night and some character who was supposed to be super smart was talking about the illusion of individuality. I can't remember exactly what he said, but it was something like:

They were watching a fight on TV in a hospital room and dude says "okay, I'll explain... see those fighters there on the tv? That they are inviduals is an illusion. We think of them as separate, distinct entities because that's how we choose to see them. Rather, try thinking of them as waves on the ocean - each just part of the ocean's pattern of energy"

- or something like that.

So.. the thing is, I think this is somewhat misleading, and that the truth of the matter is actually a duality... depending on how you frame the terms. Conceptually however, I think there is a dual truth in there.

I believe his statement is true, but its counter is also true. I do not believe either is "an illusion" though, and find it somewhat annoying that people insist on referring to it as such.

I believe that a person is both an indistinct feature of the whole, and a separate - unique entity.

I see this as a "quantum state" of sorts, in that when you choose one the other becomes untrue.

Ah, I see... okay: that both are true I would classify as "an objective truth" as in, when projected into conceptual being, and all subjectiveness removed... that's what you'd be left with. But as soon as the "quantum state" is collapsed by perspective undertaking its analysis... if one becomes true THEN the other becomes false.

Dig?
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That's really old stuff. That's the core of eastern philosophy...
The comparison is also very similar to the Zen Buddhist story of the fish that realized they were part of the ocean...

Well, whatever... not long ago I started a thread about the consequences......... :rolleyes:
 
§1: I figure, well, why don’t I just write my idea, my “great non-wrong” idea, theory, right? Why don’t I just write it down, so that I can hope to understand it? So, even if it is drastic, if truth is truth, then if it is bad it is not true.

§2: It must be some theory, in which I have spread bits about across sci-forums; here and there, bits or words in certain threads where I feel that I have no place in. Isn’t it funny how intentions come across on occasion?

§3: In any case, I should start by saying that it’s something that can or must occur through life, for there is no such thing without it. The ideas were in such places posted as “Universal Truths” named threads, with me stressing the idea of post-modernism. How much do I really know? Surely, not enough to say “there is no truth, the only truth is post modern truth”!

§4: Such a statement, obviously, isn’t first one for me, nor is it one that is fundamentally correct. I can’t say “there is no truth but post modernism!”, which in the vain i’m sure I did.

§5: It must come across so to say it, as me. We all have our own views of life, each one correct for that person. However, such things including pragmatic usage, and such, I very much appeal to, agree with, and so on. However my theory is basically an area within this line of thought presented here.

It is that idea of “thinking for others”, as my mom would say to me.

It appears a metaphysic or a dualism.


*I was going to write more....
 
Yeah i totally agree...people who bang on about reality being 'just an illusion' are annoying. They dont seem to realise that looking at reality as an illusion is just another skewed perspective; another way at looking things to make everything explainable.
Which isnt to say that individualistic reality isnt or might not be an illusion, i just dont think its anymore helpful (for example) than saying that a movie is a just an illusion of captured images played at a specific frame rate. Yes thats true, but that doesnt cover the whole spectrum of reality of what a movie is.
 
if reality was not an illusion, it would be impossible to extract/explain it from nothingness (because everything needs a cause except nothingness)

the world is nothingness in disguise. the world is mental and consciousness is nothing.

like the ancient egyptian myths say, ra was born from "nothingness" because there was an imbalance between the principles allowing it to 'be'.

because nothingness is the only logical reality, it must also be "everything" (infinite) at the same time. but how can nothingness be limitless and at the same time be nothing (infinitely limited)? by separating itself from its infinity and concentrating itself in points and radiating its infinity in infinite illusions of universes.
 
Just the statement "reality is an illusion" is self-contradictory.

I think it's as I was saying above. The objective truth is that it's both. If you see it as "an illusion" you exclude yourself from seeing it as real, and vice versa.
 
wes,
I dont see any evidence that quantum mechanical observations (ie double slit experiment) manifest themselves at the macro level. Of course, the rub is that I wouldn't even if it were true.

The ramifications are universes where objective truth is basically anything and everything. You can get into an infinite amount of universes spawning from each of us constantly, ad nauseum.

It gets pretty wacky quickly. (Disclaimer: but it may be true)
 
fadingCaptain said:
wes,
I dont see any evidence that quantum mechanical observations (ie double slit experiment) manifest themselves at the macro level. Of course, the rub is that I wouldn't even if it were true.

The ramifications are universes where objective truth is basically anything and everything. You can get into an infinite amount of universes spawning from each of us constantly, ad nauseum.

It gets pretty wacky quickly. (Disclaimer: but it may be true)
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I didn't imply that there is much in that way on the macro level, besides how humans see things and how they react to events based on their point of view.

And what I see as comparable to a "quantum state" are things that are matters of opinion like for instance "reality is an illusion" which as I stated before I find to be self-negating. Regardless, reality can be seen as illusion.. nothing more than smoke and mirrors. It can also be seen as solid, relentless.. whatever.. or anywhere in between I suppose for that matter. However, to be of one opinion.. to really be it... you exclude the other from possbility. You squeeze it out of your view of reality. This act of discernment of one position from all others, collapses a "quantum state" of potential perspective, into an "existing perspective". That's the kind of thing I'm getting at.

EDIT:

oh, and to have a fully discerned position, and to really really believe that position, while you're believing it, all other positions are out of view. You can't see them while you hold the one true and are conscious of it.

you can set it aside temporarily and try another... but while you have the one, the others can't be true... but of course it's possible that the truth about them can change for you.
 
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wesmorris said:
Just the statement "reality is an illusion" is self-contradictory.
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only for some people. because all people think differently. all people have different logic.
 
sure they do..

but reality is real

and illusions are illusions

at least as to how the words are specifically designed.

more correctly, one might say "what would seem to be reality is an illusion". that's all I meant.
 
wesmorris said:
but reality is real
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morpheus: "what is real? how do you define real?"

and illusions are illusions
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no. illusions are real. everything else can be said to be an illusion, but the illusion itself can't be an illusion.

more correctly, one might say "what would seem to be reality is an illusion". that's all I meant.
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if something is an illusion it means that it's something else than what it seems to be. it also means that it's mental.
 
when a magician performs a magic trick, the illusion itself is as real as the deck of cards he handles. however it appears to be something it is not. it is in this sense i see consciousness as an illusion. it is very real but not what it seems.

more to topic:
ok wes, i see more clearly your point now. it is hard for me to wrap my head around because that is simply not how i think (knowledge to me is a range of probabilities, not possibilities). There may be instances where i have collapsed my perspective though. I think you are probably dead on in respect to religious conviction.
 
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