A true statesman:

[paddoboy]

History would have and did see apartheid was ended. He didn't end it - We did. We who think race is a defunct term. We who find apartheid sickening. We ended it - good people, people who abhor violence, who were and are sickened by apartheid mentality. The current of history finally turned against South Africa and apartheid ended. Let's hope it continues to sweep away the violence.

Rubbish!!!
A man who had spent unjustly 27 years in jail, and then came out with his head held still held high did, in conjunction with actions by other nations like Australia.
I wouldn't mind betting, that the actions that country's like Australia did take would have also met with your bible thumping disaproval in those earlier turbulent years.
And now you try and present a moderate face after the great man's death. Your sanctimonious crap sickens me.

 

[Buddha12]

Nelson Mandela was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe, (MK), the terrorist wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party. At his trial, he had pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilising terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people, including women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandela’s MK terrorists. Here are some highlights

-Church Street West, Pretoria, on the 20 May 1983

-Amanzimtoti Shopping complex KZN, 23 December 1985

-Krugersdorp Magistrate’s Court, 17 March 1988

-Durban Pick ‘n Pay shopping complex, 1 September 1986

-Pretoria Sterland movie complex 16 April 1988 – limpet mine killed ANC terrorist M O Maponya instead

-Johannesburg Magistrate’s Court, 20 May 1987

-Roodepoort Standard Bank 3 June, 1988

Tellingly, not only did Mandela refuse to renounce violence, Amnesty refused to take his case stating “[the] movement recorded that it could not give the name of ‘Prisoner of Conscience’ to anyone associated with violence, even though as in ‘conventional warfare’ a degree of restraint may be exercised.”


Inheriting a country with criminally deep socio-ecnomic problems, one might expect resources to be poured into redressing the imbalances of apartheid. Yet once in office, even Mandela’s government slipped into the custom of putting national corporatism, power and prestige above its people. Deputy Minister of Defence Ronnie Kasrils said in 1995 that the government’s planned cuts in defence spending could also result in the loss of as many as 90,000 jobs in defence-related industries.

Mandela’s government announced in November 1998 that it intended to purchase 28 BAE/SAAB JAS 39 Gripen fighter aircraft from Sweden at a cost of R10.875 billion, i.e. R388 million (about US$65 million) per plane. Clearly, the all-powerful air armadas of Botswana weighed heavily on the minds of South African leaders…

Not content with jets, in 1999 a US$4.8 billion (R30 billion in 1999 rands) purchase of weaponry was finalised, which has been subject to allegations of corruption. The South African Department of Defence’s Strategic Defence Acquisition purchased a slew of shiny new weapons, including frigates, submarines, corvettes, light utility helicopters, fighter jet trainers and advanced light fighter aircraft.

Below are some of the purchases made, presumably to keep the expansionist intentions of Madagascar at bay…




Description

Original Qty

Illustrative total cost


Corvettes

4

R4 billion


Maritime helicopter for corvettes

5

R1 billion


New submarines to replace Daphne

4

R5,5 billion


Alouette helicopter replacement

60

R2 billion


Advanced light fighter

48

R6-9 billion


Main Battle Tank replacement of Olifant

154

R6 billion


Total cost in 1998 Rand

R25-38 billion



The apartheid regime was a crime against humanity; as illogical as it was cruel. It is tempting, therefore, to simplify the subject by declaring that all who opposed it were wholly and unswervingly good. It’s important to remember, however, that Mandela has been the first to hold his hands up to his shortcomings and mistakes. In books and speeches, he goes to great length to admit his errors. The real tragedy is that too many in the West can’t bring themselves to see what the great man himself has said all along; that he’s just as flawed as the rest of us, and should not be put on a pedestal.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=..._-gZgJ&usg=AFQjCNGrJp3LgyCFRmAqJ1i3gcKCk_8zGA



Does that sound like a “man of peace” to you? Whether the violence was justified or not is a matter of opinion. But I think it is fair to say that Mandela was never the Ghandi-like man that he was portrayed to be in American mainstream media. What people need to understand is that the violence in South Africa did not end when Mandela was released and it did not end with the death of apartheid. In fact, it may be worsening. Despite the end of apartheid the racial division of a leader who claimed to be about peace has caused black on white crime and genocide to explode.


In July of 2012, Dr. Gregory Stanton, head of the nonprofit group Genocide Watch, conducted a fact-finding mission in South Africa. He concluded that there is a coordinated campaign of genocide being conducted against white farmers, known as Boers. “The farm murders, we have become convinced, are not accidental,” Stanton contended. “It was very clear that the massacres were not common crimes,” he added — especially because of the absolute barbarity used against the victims. “We don’t know exactly who is planning them yet, but what we are calling for is an international investigation,” he added. Source: Frontpage Mag

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=..._-gZgJ&usg=AFQjCNHUvZ7ImZ_4m1NmSs3A3W-OUMT5Xg

 

[paddoboy]

Sometimes to obtain justice and freedom, the otherwise good man, may need to take up the cudgel.

That does not make him any less good, or in Mandela's case, great.

It's a shame that some in this thread, see the need to waste bandwith on criticising a great man, rather then the evils of Apartheid.

 

[Buddha12]

Sometimes to obtain justice and freedom, the otherwise good man, may need to take up the cudgel.

That does not make him any less good, or in Mandela's case, great.

It's a shame that some in this thread, see the need to waste bandwith on criticising a great man, rather then the evils of Apartheid.

Some peoples OPINIONS are just that while others here present FACTS that you don't want to accept it would seem, is that so?

 

[paddoboy]

Some peoples OPINIONS are just that while others here present FACTS that you don't want to accept it would seem, is that so?

As I said, instead of wasting bandwith, try decrying the evil regime that Mandela helped to put down...and not my opinion, the worlds. OK???

 

[Michael]

Does a Great Statesman perpetuate illogical thinking such as 'race'? Does a Great Statesman sing about killing people based on their skin-color?! Here's a video of Nelson Mandela singing with other Communist members about killing white people.

[video=youtube;fcOXqFQw2hc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcOXqFQw2hc[/video]


Doesn't seem very "Great" to me. Seems rather "Small" - as in a Small minded person.

 

[Michael]

I would like to ask Michael what orginisations he belongs to....
Now that would be Interesting.

The only organizations I belong to are scientific. I'm a member of the Society for Neuroscience as an example. If you're wondering, my children are not 'white'. I do not believe in 'race' because 'race' is meaningless gobbledygook. I'm simply holding Nelson Mandela to the same standards I would hold anyone else.

The truth is, you want to bend the moral rules - but they don't bend. Killing innocent women and children was immoral when the Dutch did it, it was immoral when the Africans did it. So, I'm simply applying the same rules consistently: Don't harm innocent people, Don't steal from innocent people, Use your Words. Pretty simple. Too bad most adults are in reality just big children who never learned to follow those simple rules.

Tell me this, Mandela had his Communist followers place bombs in the public commons and PURPOSELY chose areas were INNOCENT children and women would be there to die, let's suppose instead he manned-up and walked down there with a machete and chopped those same women and children into peaces. I'm curious, would your opinion of him change then?

Mandela wasn't in prison for standing up against apartheid, he was in prison for killing innocent women and children. AND I can promise you, ANY mother would gladly live 27 years in a cell without half the amenities as Nelson Mandela had just to spend another day with the child they lost.



So? What is it with you people? Why do you have to pray to Gods and venerate your Popes and Obama's and Mandela's? Why? Are you still just a monkey with a little less hair jumping up and down when the Pope tosses some water on you? Or is it his hat? It's the hat isn't it? Yeah, it's difficult having to share this planet with a bunch of pea-brained slightly hairless monkeys half of whom worship invisible Sky-Daddy and the other half are Statheists. Both with their costumes (Pope hat or State uniforms), ceremonies (Mass or Election), superstitious language (Heathen or Traitor) and Cathedrals or White Houses.

Yeah, keep singing praises to the people who murder children. But, don't wonder why there are poor and illiterate children being killed in war. That's because of the people you sing praises to.

 

[Michael]

I wouldn't mind betting, that the actions that country's like Australia did take would have also met with your bible thumping disaproval in those earlier turbulent years.
And now you try and present a moderate face after the great man's death. Your sanctimonious crap sickens me.

My bible thumping? God can suck a dick.

1) Australian aboriginals are some of the most poor people on the planet living in squalor in a supposedly 'first world' nation.
2) Nothing you said changes the fact that Nelson Mandela had people purposely place bombs in areas where innocent women and children would die. This is a fact. It's WHY he was in prison.
3) Purposely killing children is immoral. This is also a fact. There's no argument here.
4) South Africa is now the rape capital of the world - THIS is the fruit of violence.
5) South Africa now has a 50% unemployment rate - THIS is the fruit of violence.

Sadly, our entire societies are structured around violence, so much so that a person who murdered children is venerated as the "Father of the Nation".

Ignorance is Strength indeed.

 

[paddoboy]

Sadly, our entire societies are structured around violence, so much so that a person who murdered children is venerated as the "Father of the Nation".

Ignorance is Strength indeed.

Violence will continue as long as injustices and inequalities exist, including Australia's indigenous folk. Although with regards to the latter, as with any point of view you take, it over steps and over states the situation due to your fanatical right wing bias, and the usual Communism v's Capitalism blinkered approach you take.
The world recognises Mandela for what he is/was, and what he helped to achieve with regards to an evil regime.
That will stand for eternity despite the sanctimonious stand you take.

 

[Michael]

Violence will continue as long as

people think violence is the answer. Children raised non-violently, not spanked, not threatened and taught to think logically and rationally cannot fit into a world where violence is the norm. They won't accept it in their lives.


You mention 'injustices' - you mean like the murder of those innocent children? Is that the 'injustices' you were thinking of?
You mention 'inequalities' - how funny, given you're on record as stating you do not want to treat people 'equal' you want to a Progressive State to BE Progressive and treat people unequal. Different. You seem to think 'violence' is going to force people to BE equal. But it's not working out that way now is it?
You say 'fanatical right wing bias' - the only principle I've been applying is the non-aggression principle. Sorry if non-violence against innocent people doesn't sit well with whatever 'fanatical' box you want to put yourself inside of.

 

[spidergoat]

Does a Great Statesman perpetuate illogical thinking such as 'race'? Does a Great Statesman sing about killing people based on their skin-color?! Here's a video of Nelson Mandela singing with other Communist members about killing white people.




Doesn't seem very "Great" to me. Seems rather "Small" - as in a Small minded person.

Sure, the white people against Democracy. I want to kill them too.

 

[spidergoat]

...
2) Nothing you said changes the fact that Nelson Mandela had people purposely place bombs in areas where innocent women and children would die. This is a fact. It's WHY he was in prison.

Prove it. From what I've read, he emphasized avoiding civilian deaths by blowing things up at night when no one was around. He might have been a moderating influence on the MK.

 

[spidergoat]

...It's why we end up with Kings and Queens. Emperors and Dictators. ...

He only served one term for this precise reason.

 

[Peregrine]

My bible thumping? God can suck a dick.

Ignorance is Strength indeed.

Technically, God could suck ALL of the dicks. He is omnipresent.

 

[Peregrine]

History recognizes and reveres the winner, the champion.

Having kicked some Dutch butt, Mandela is recognized as "great."

As South Africa continues to fail, history will become more objective until finally condemning the throwing off of apartheid altogether.

For example, Nigeria. While not considered 'apartheid' because 'white people' do not control the government, white people fund everything in Nigeria. While presently crime ridden, Nigeria is a prime example of a functioning state in Africa. If Nigerians decided to throw off white people, Nigeria would descend rapidly.

See: Haiti

Edit note: China is now investing in Africa. Lets see how that turns out. Especially b/c they use Chinese, not African labor...

 

[Michael]

Sure, the white people against Democracy. I want to kill them too.

You're allowed to defend yourself and this may unfortunately result in the death of the person you're defending yourself against. You are not allowed to indiscriminately kill children (white or otherwise).

 

[Michael]

Prove it. From what I've read, he emphasized avoiding civilian deaths by blowing things up at night when no one was around. He might have been a moderating influence on the MK.

He was a co-founder of the ANC’s Umkhonto we Sizwe (Spear of the Nation), a militant terrorist group within a terrorist group - as designated by the USA. He was tried and convicted as a terrorist.

Example: Church Street bombing
The attack consisted of a car bomb set off outside the Nedbank Square building on Church Street at 4:30pm on a Friday. The target was South African Air Force (SAAF) headquarters, but as the bomb was set to go off at the height of rush hour, those killed and wounded included civilians.

Nelson Mandela's ex-wife Winnie Mandela stated (on camera) "With our boxes of matches and our necklaces we shall liberate this country" which was widely seen as an implicit endorsement of necklacing

The first victim of necklacing was a young African girl Maki Skosana:

Moloko said her sister was burned to death with a tire around her neck while attending the funeral of one of the youths. Her body had been scorched by fire and some broken pieces of glass had been inserted into her vagina, Moloko told the committee. Moloko added that a big rock had been thrown on her face after she had been killed. Although it was originally believed that she had an affiliation to the deaths of the activists, it was not until her story was dealt with in the Truth and Reconciliation Commission that it was discovered that she had simply been "at the wrong place at the wrong time."​

She was later found to be totally innocent.


Winnie didn't murder this particular child, but many other innocent Africans would die by her hand. It should be noted that Nelson Mandela stood up in Winnie Mandela's defence at her trial even though she had many innocent Africans killed via 'necklacing' for the crime of not wanting their children sent off to die - Nelson Mandela defended her court. She of course is a free leading member ANC to this day. South Africa is now the murder capital of the world. I think it may have one of the highest AIDs epidemics, rape is rampant, the economy is in shambles with 50% unemployment. Then there's the explicit goal of killing off farmers who may not have done anything wrong other than be born 'white' or black Africans who happen to think it's wrong to kill white people.

Imagine if, somehow, Native Americans 'rose up' and started killing off 'all the white people'. What happened to Native Americans was immoral - killing 'white people' isn't going to change that fact. Humans should be allowed to move anywhere on the planet where they can settle, buy land or rent and be productive.

 

[Michael]

NewAmerican

Countless thousands of genuine prisoners of conscience, who have never done anything more “criminal” than praying, or speaking out against tyranny, are languishing in prisons all across the planet without so much as a peep of protest from the legions of Mandela worshipers and his chorus of media promoters. How many of those praising Mandela as the world’s moral compass have ever heard of Ignatius Cardinal Kung , the Roman Catholic Bishop of Shanghai, who was imprisoned in Communist China for 33 years, most of it overlapping the same period in which Mandela was in prison? Cardinal Kung’s heroic incarceration was in many ways more severe than that faced by Mandela, but no media love-fest awaited him when he was released in 1988. Ditto for Dr. Oscar Elias Bisce t, a black Cuban physician who was released from Fidel Castro’s prison system in 2011 after brutal captivity for the “crime” of criticizing the island’s communist regime. But did Nelson Mandela chastise his comrades in Beijing and Havana when he visited there, or did he bring up the plight of the countless political and religious prisoners in their gulags? If so, there is no public record of it, though there is plenty on record of him praising those oppressive regimes.

The medias like a story to sell, that much is for sure. Mandela was that story. Yet, for these people, hardly any one has heard of their plight. They were true prisoner's of conscious. My guess it it's because they didn't kill any children. You pretty much have to kill children to be a Hero in the modern world (here).


Violence begets violence. If Africans want a prosperous society they should use sound money, law, protect private property and practice free market capitalism. In addition, they should teach their children to think logically, and not hit them. If they could do this, in a matter of a few generations, they'd be the most prosperous people on planet earth and be loved and supported by their children in their old age.

Will this happen - nope. Children must be hit, frightened, slapped and their labor bonded - then told not hit, not to steal and to use their words. It's called a good mind-f*&ck and does wonders in promoting violence in society.

 

[paddoboy]

You certainly have plenty to say with no actual proof of any of it.
As someone else mentioned, If I came across some arsehole that was going to take away my freedom, or any other form of prejudice, I would do exactly what I had to to stop him/her/it.

The most insidious type of racist is that person who says often, "I'm not a racist BUT!.....................


Michael, your continued ranting raving and lengthy unsupported posting, will do nothing to change the fact that Mandela was one of the two greatest human beings of the 20th century.
You don't like that? Tough titty!

 

[spidergoat]

You certainly have plenty to say with no actual proof of any of it.
As someone else mentioned, If I came across some arsehole that was going to take away my freedom, or any other form of prejudice, I would do exactly what I had to to stop him/her/it.

The most insidious type of racist is that person who says often, "I'm not a racist BUT!.....................


Michael, your continued ranting raving and lengthy unsupported posting, will do nothing to change the fact that Mandela was one of the two greatest human beings of the 20th century.
You don't like that? Tough titty!

While I'm against most of Michael's ideology, I am also against hero worship and the sanctification of someone with a more complex and sometimes disturbing legacy than the media usually portrays.