A possible explanation for what happens as you are dying

[danknugget]

Hey Guys

So I have already been interested in the idea of psychedelics and after hearing that DMT (an extremely potent psychedelic) gets released in your brain when you die (not sure how true this is) , I think I have a possible explanation for the process of dying.
Ego death is a state that is experienced with a strong dose of psychedelics, having experienced it once before, the feeling is similar to totally forgetting your identity and simply not being able to comprehend anything. Its almost like you dissolve into the universe but obviously you're still alive and receiving sensory input.

I believe it is very likely that death occurs mentally through the process of ego death as a result of the DMT surge in your brain during death. Except this time its permanent and you lose sensory input with the end result being loss of the consciousness we recognize. If this is true, then psychedelic induced ego death can infact have interesting uses such as treating people with fear of dying (which is currently being done) etc etc.

Slightly off topic, I personally feel consciousness is fundamentally the same thing in all of us but it is "us" who are just experiencing it subjectively taking on our own identities.

What do you guys think?

 

[C C]

I believe it is very likely that death occurs mentally through the process of ego death as a result of the DMT surge in your brain during death. Except this time its permanent and you lose sensory input with the end result being loss of the consciousness we recognize. If this is true, then psychedelic induced ego death can infact have interesting uses such as treating people with fear of dying (which is currently being done) etc etc.

Realizing that goals, responsibilities / obligations, desires, boredom, disappointment, worry, and the rest of suffering would disappear along with everything else (as far as total extinction of perceptual / feeling / thinking occurrences goes) should indeed help ease any necrophobia. Of course, such a degree of absence probably isn't what you intend here, as indicated by "consciousness we recognize", and the following.

Slightly off topic, I personally feel consciousness is fundamentally the same thing in all of us but it is "us" who are just experiencing it subjectively taking on our own identities.

That there is some kind of "world-manifestation" or ubiquitous evidence of existence transpiring independent of the limited version of such "presence" associated with brains / bodies (even if lacking understanding / cognition of it), might initially conflict with what seems the mainstream view in the physical sciences: That consciousness is emergent rather than fundamental (consciousness used here as an umbrella term embracing everything from sensation to intellection). Existence and its unfolding order thereby normally absent to itself; following death, in this context, one couldn't really assert that there would even be the exhibition of "nothing" -- a sense of extended darkness or silence or emptiness. However, if you can't express your personal metaphysical stance in the philosophy section of sciforums, then... [!!!] Also, the other should be interpreted more as suspended judgment / agnosticism or a working assumption falling out of methodological naturalism, to avoid being a metaphysical belief itself wandering around in biology / physics. But it seems to become a kind of ontological "conviction" when philosophers convert some of the output of science into part of physicalism, metaphysical naturalism, etc.

 

[dumbest man on earth]

"A possible explanation for what happens as you are dying". How about...life.
From the instant of birth, you begin the ultimate process of dying...the journey of life.
Philosophize however you wish, dying or death is the final manifestation/act of life.

The OP mentioned : "...treating people with fear of dying" - any irrational fear of dying should be more correctly stated as a fear of living.
It is only through living that we can ever hope to prepare our souls/selves/ego for the natural finish of life.
The earlier/sooner we are fully prepared, the more time remains to fully enjoy this life.
Acceptance of the end of one journey/life, frees us to accept the beginning and enjoyment of another journey/life.

 

[Yazata]

Good post, Danknugget! Welcome to the board.

Hey Guys

So I have already been interested in the idea of psychedelics and after hearing that DMT (an extremely potent psychedelic) gets released in your brain when you die (not sure how true this is) , I think I have a possible explanation for the process of dying.

Or for the subjective effect that somebody might experience when dying.

I think that death, in the biological sense, is the cessation of the physiological processes that collectively define life. Chemical pathways start to break down irreversibly and cells start to rupture and lyse. It isn't like shutting off a light switch. Even a body in which macro-scale physiology (neurological, repiratory, circulatory, homeostatic body chemistry) has broken down irreversibly and has already been declared dead by attending physicians will still have many living cells in it down on the micro-scale for some time. They will gradually die as they no longer receive blood and oxygen, and as toxic metabolic products build up.

Ego death is a state that is experienced with a strong dose of psychedelics

Or with being bashed in the head with a baseball bat. Anything that causes unconsciousness would seem to eliminate the conscious sense of self.

The difference in the psychedelic case, and as you suggest it's a tremendously fascinating one, seems to be that the loss of a sense of self can happen without otherwise losing consciousness.

having experienced it once before, the feeling is similar to totally forgetting your identity and simply not being able to comprehend anything.

When I was taking LSD, back in the day, we were scared of that. We used to gauge our dosages so as not to pass that point. (I came close on several occasions.) Our experience was that if somebody passed that point, their bodies would effectively no longer be under the control of a conscious subject. Behavior would become very confused and injuries and accidents could very easily result. When the individual recovered a few hours later, he typically wouldn't have any memory of what had happened.

Its almost like you dissolve into the universe but obviously you're still alive and receiving sensory input.

The perceptual effects are a lead-up to that. The discrete objects of our daily experience would be joined in our visual fields by, and start to fall apart into, a disjointed collection of colors, edges, corners, colors and textures covering everything in constantly moving and infinitely complex fractal-like patterns. And at some point, we would begin lose a coherent sense of our own body. On many occasions I'd become confused about where exactly my arms and legs were. Sometimes I felt like I was falling apart or melting into a puddle, or that I'd lost some body parts across the room somewhere. The proprioceptive body-sense is a big component of our sense of self, and when it starts to send in unreliable data, our sense of self starts to waver. But that's just a buildup to something more profound (and more scary), when our whole construction of our inner self fragments, falls apart and dissipates.

I believe it is very likely that death occurs mentally through the process of ego death as a result of the DMT surge in your brain during death. Except this time its permanent and you lose sensory input with the end result being loss of the consciousness we recognize.

I don't really want to commit myself to taking a position on the neuro-chemistry of death. I don't know enough about it.

But yeah, in many cases at least, I'd guess that as neural functioning starts to break down, the subjective effects might not be all that dissimilar to taking a psychedelic drug.

If this is true, then psychedelic induced ego death can infact have interesting uses such as treating people with fear of dying (which is currently being done) etc etc.

The subjective experience isn't horrible or anything. (Some people think it's fun.) The scary thing about death for most people isn't so much the actual experience of their self-awareness falling apart. The psychological suffering associated with death seems to me to happen well before that point and to be more about the sense of loss that one feels at the idea of one's self finally being gone for good.

 

[dumbest man on earth]

Yazata, insightful post.
You opined : "The psychological suffering associated with death seems to me to happen well before that point and to be more about the sense of loss that one feels at the idea of one's self finally being gone for good."
Most people seem to think/believe ( If, indeed, they have ever contemplated the thought ! ), that the body has a sort of temporary (beginning and ending with birth and death ) self or soul.
Is it not possible that the self/soul has a temporary ( beginning and ending with the mortal existence in this reality ) body ?
Think, for a moment or two, that if it were possible to thoroughly convince all caterpillars, by whatever means, to never strive to build a cocoon.
If that were ever to be achieved - could a butterfly ever emerge from the never built cocoon?
I present this to you in the form of a "What if..."
What if, "A possible explanation for what happens as you are dying is" you are moving through some type of "transit terminal" and whether or not your "cocoon" is properly prepared is equivalent to your "boarding/travel documents/passport" being in proper order?

For some reason, my "self", refuses to let me entertain the idea of "being gone for good" - but, then again, my "self" convinced me, a long time ago, that I am just doing time on planet earth.
Your thoughts, perhaps, Yazata ?

Please, and possibly, thank you.

 

[river]

The gathering of information , captured energy

 

[danknugget]

Really great info guys, got me thinking lots. As I explained in my position before, I feel that consciousness is the same thing for all of us just because experienced differently in our bodies. If this were the case, then everyone would at some level be the same person and when they die, thats you dying in some sense, and when someone is born, that is you being born. Yazata you really expanded on the details of my post well, very insightful.

Also Dumbest man, your what if, while it has not clicked with me fully yet, is possibly, cause the idea of being "reborn" or emerging as consciousness in a new entity seems relatively possible if consciousness is the same, Death is your entrance to the transit terminal where you lose your current consciousness and emerge as another new one?

Having never personally experienced it I cannot say accurately but I have heard people say that a DMT trip often reminds them of death / the place where they were born.

 

[dumbest man on earth]

Really great info guys, got me thinking lots. As I explained in my position before, I feel that consciousness is the same thing for all of us just because experienced differently in our bodies. If this were the case, then everyone would at some level be the same person and when they die, thats you dying in some sense, and when someone is born, that is you being born. Yazata you really expanded on the details of my post well, very insightful.

Also Dumbest man, your what if, while it has not clicked with me fully yet, is possibly, cause the idea of being "reborn" or emerging as consciousness in a new entity seems relatively possible if consciousness is the same, Death is your entrance to the transit terminal where you lose your current consciousness and emerge as another new one?

Having never personally experienced it I cannot say accurately but I have heard people say that a DMT trip often reminds them of death / the place where they were born.

The Comedian, Robin Williams, once quipped : "Reality is for people who can't handle drugs".
In the "what if" I posited earlier, the "caterpillar's" soul or self would only fail to reach the intended "butterfly" destination if it's cocoon was not properly prepared.
The "place where they were born" you mentioned, if I understood correctly, could possibly be the "Transit Terminal" referenced in my "what if".
The "life" we experience in "this realty" may only a "phase" or a "chapter" or even a "tiny little baby step" in the true ultimate journey of life. A soul or self may pass through a myriad of "Transit Terminals" requiring many different variations in the preparation of proper "travel documents".
Mind you though, this is a "what if" posited by someone who has chosen to refer to himself as the dumbest man on earth.
so, possibly, "take it with a grain of salt", "proceed very slowly",or even "enter at own risk".
All I can say for sure is : Your mileage may vary.

I'll leave you with a quote from Jim Morrison of "The Doors" : "No one here gets out alive".