a lose lose situation

what will occur?


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among shadows

Registered Member
leaves fall on your face; softly do they drift down.


As upright critical thinking creatures we deem ourselves important. We consider our technology superior. Yet it is in our nature to destroy ourselves.

Why then do we foolishly decieve ourselves into thinking (or not thinking of at all) how long our world can support us.



Scientists are already trying to see if there is another possible future home for our race.
this should be a sign.


Elaborate upon this and tell me what you have seen.
 
You've forgotten the option that is most likely to occur: we will assist in our destruction by disease.
 
Why is this in the philosophy section? This is NOT PHILOSOPHY. Try Free Thought or Science.
 
I concern myself not with the scientific aspect of these things. I am more interested in the reasoning behind this. It appears that you foolishly judge without understanding..
 
among shadows ...


As upright critical thinking creatures we deem ourselves important. We consider our technology superior. Yet it is in our nature to destroy ourselves.

Why then do we foolishly decieve ourselves into thinking (or not thinking of at all) how long our world can support us.

Well, to go by your line of thinking: Since it is "in our nature" to destroy ourselves, then we also must have something to destroy in the first place. So we build, so that we can tear down. The more we want to tear down, the more we must build.




Elaborate upon this and tell me what you have seen.

Misery.
 
I have no doubt we will face challenges soon, but I doubt very much that every last human on Earth will die anytime soon. Call me an optimist, but humans have survived just as difficult challenges when there was no technology or knowledge other than the most primitave need to food and shelter.
 
among shadows said:
leaves fall on your face; softly do they drift down.


As upright critical thinking creatures we deem ourselves important. We consider our technology superior. Yet it is in our nature to destroy ourselves.

Why then do we foolishly decieve ourselves into thinking (or not thinking of at all) how long our world can support us.



Scientists are already trying to see if there is another possible future home for our race.
this should be a sign.


Elaborate upon this and tell me what you have seen.
First, may i say...i LOVE your intro very much. Beautiful.......

when we say 'we' 'humans' 'our species', i feel that is really very very wrong, and utterly ufair to all he many many generations of People of the Land who have been obliterated from the face of the Earth, as have thousands of other species, and still it continues. we really causes me personaly grat despair whn i really think and feel about it

So please lt us not confuse the WHOLE of human species wit A mindsetthat has brought us to this...prison planet, basically.

jeeesus, man poeple dont even know, or wont admit, they ARE oppressed. this is a pattern seen in all denials. take alcoholism. ONLY wen an alcoholic admits tey have a problem can healing begin,,,,eroin etc etc. Similarly wit our problem.

It is NOT a species thang. it is a MINDSET
tang. it is when the mindset cuts its head off from its body/Nature. THAT ISthe problem......
 
duendy said:
jeeesus, man poeple dont even know, or wont admit, they ARE oppressed. this is a pattern seen in all denials. take alcoholism. ONLY wen an alcoholic admits tey have a problem can healing begin,,,,eroin etc etc. Similarly wit our problem.

It is NOT a species thang. it is a MINDSET
tang. it is when the mindset cuts its head off from its body/Nature. THAT ISthe problem......

Well, Fromm has a theory that says that humans essentially want to escape freedom.

http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/fromm.html


Freedom is a difficult thing to have, and when we can we tend to flee from it.

Fromm describes three ways in which we escape from freedom:

1. Authoritarianism.
We seek to avoid freedom by fusing ourselves with others, by becoming a part of an authoritarian system like the society of the Middle Ages. There are two ways to approach this. One is to submit to the power of others, becoming passive and compliant. The other is to become an authority yourself, a person who applies structure to others. Either way, you escape your separate identity.

Fromm referred to the extreme version of authoritarianism as masochism and sadism, and points our that both feel compelled to play their separate roles, so that even the sadist, with all his apparent power over the masochist, is not free to choose his actions. But milder versions of authoritarianism are everywhere. In many classes, for example, there is an implicit contract between students and professors: Students demand structure, and the professor sticks to his notes. It seems innocuous and even natural, but this way the students avoid taking any responsibility for their learning, and the professor can avoid taking on the real issues of his field.

2. Destructiveness.
Authoritarians respond to a painful existence by, in a sense, eliminating themselves: If there is no me, how can anything hurt me? But others respond to pain by striking out against the world: If I destroy the world, how can it hurt me? It is this escape from freedom that accounts for much of the indiscriminate nastiness of life -- brutality, vandalism, humiliation, vandalism, crime, terrorism....

Fromm adds that, if a person's desire to destroy is blocked by circumstances, he or she may redirect it inward. The most obvious kind of self-destructiveness is, of course, suicide. But we can also include many illnesses, drug addiction, alcoholism, even the joys of passive entertainment. He turns Freud's death instinct upside down: Self-destructiveness is frustrated destructiveness, not the other way around.

3. Automaton conformity.
Authoritarians escape by hiding within an authoritarian hierarchy. But our society emphasizes equality! There is less hierarchy to hide in (though plenty remains for anyone who wants it, and some who don't). When we need to hide, we hide in our mass culture instead. When I get dressed in the morning, there are so many decisions! But I only need to look at what you are wearing, and my frustrations disappear. Or I can look at the television, which, like a horoscope, will tell me quickly and effectively what to do. If I look like, talk like, think like, feel like... everyone else in my society, then I disappear into the crowd, and I don't need to acknowledge my freedom or take responsibility. It is the horizontal counterpart to authoritarianism.

The person who uses automaton conformity is like a social chameleon: He takes on the coloring of his surroundings. Since he looks like a million other people, he no longer feels alone. He isn't alone, perhaps, but he's not himself either. The automaton conformist experiences a split between his genuine feelings and the colors he shows the world, very much along the lines of Horney's theory.

In fact, since humanity's "true nature" is freedom, any of these escapes from freedom alienates us from ourselves. Here's what Fromm had to say:

Man is born as a freak of nature, being within nature and yet transcending it. He has to find principles of action and decision making which replace the principles of instincts. he has to have a frame of orientation which permits him to organize a consistent picture of the world as a condition for consistent actions. He has to fight not only against the dangers of dying, starving, and being hurt, but also against another anger which is specifically human: that of becoming insane. In other words, he has to protect himself not only against the danger of losing his life but also against the danger of losing his mind. (Fromm, 1968, p. 61)
 
of course i see a lot of unacknowledged premises in what i've read of Fromme

he also seems to hae a strange notion of freedom. as togh the choices a given culture may 'give' makes the person 'free'--that's a premise i dont believe in

for if you take it seriousy it actually affects the perception/feelings of the believer in Fromme--philosophy. why you may srat lookin at the animal world as some kind of prison instead of your OWn trip, which you mistaknly believe is freedom

it could be argued that we in te moder--postmodern agre are as free as can be, but i really argue te opposite. i is more a concrete striaghtjacket courtesy of the pharma-shrink cartel. that any emotion deemed NOT ACCEPTABLE is deemed mentally ill. this social-shame/fear leads of course to self-censorship till you are NOT even free to feel what yo FEEL....! now go and look at the tiger in the jungle......what's left of it!
 
duendy said:
of course i see a lot of unacknowledged premises in what i've read of Fromme

he also seems to hae a strange notion of freedom. as togh the choices a given culture may 'give' makes the person 'free'--that's a premise i dont believe in

Where has Fromm stated such a thing?
 
well he seems to say that in the Middle Ages it was less 'free' than in the Renaissance etc where it was 'freeER'...havei got it wrong?
 
In my view the end of the world will be natural, such as the sun imploding, an asteroid or comet hitting, as for freedom its an illusion that exists...its a real thing, right in front of us, we can grab it, but we let ourselves be controlled by others, In my belief of life and death there is no god, and we have a limited time on earth to accomplish the things we want, they dont have meaning to anyone but ourselves really, we see them as important, and they are, because things are how you make them, in some aspects what others think doesnt matter since there is a limited time in life to make ourselves happy, not others
 
The reason I say it wont end like this is

1- The people with these weapons want power, if they use these weapons they may destroy the world and themselves, in which case there will be nothing to have power of, the weapons mainly are threats 'korea has nuclear weapons' but I doubt they will use them as anything other than a threat, or if they do it wont be in doses large enough to end the world, just greatly effect it
 
*sits back and lets his feelings wash over him*

I enjoy this. I am gladdened by kind words (Duendy) and bright eyes.
Although I seek certain people out, people that are willing to make the reach, I do not get to have my thoughts reviewed in quite this way.

Knowing that something I have said can be taken in by others, changed, and made more personal to the reader is a great feeling.

once again I have been reminded that not all hope is lost.

As sad as it may be, I do lose the correct perspective from time to time.
 
So what if there's no people in the future? It doesn't bother me at all. As a species we will live fast, die young, and leave interesting remains.
 
Erich Fromm was an idiot. Here we have a guy who takes Freudian analysis, uses it on an incorrect scale (cultural, when it was made clear by Freud himself that his work applies only to individuals...), and then mixes it into a misuse of Marxist dialectic. So, we end up with some teleological cultural doom-mindset. Wow. I'm amazed how fools can gather so many fans. (And this guy wasn't even a hip-hopster... :) )
 
Among Shadows:

Welcome to SciForums, by the way.

Anyway, my two cents:

The ability to actually wipe the human species from this planet, at present, is really quite slim. Even in large-scale nuclear war, the chance for survival, and regeneration, is remarkably high, specifically for those in the most remote corners of the world, who would be all but untouched by the ill effects, save indirectly. That being said, we also have demonstrated the capacity to deal with our problems without making recourse to utterly suicidal notions, and that is precisely why MAD worked. We are destined to move onto other worlds not so much because we may litterally need to do so, but rather that we -desire- to do so. It is the nature of man to be enterprising, to seek out new things, and to explore what he does not know.
 
glaucon said:
Erich Fromm was an idiot. Here we have a guy who takes Freudian analysis, uses it on an incorrect scale (cultural, when it was made clear by Freud himself that his work applies only to individuals...), and then mixes it into a misuse of Marxist dialectic. So, we end up with some teleological cultural doom-mindset. Wow. I'm amazed how fools can gather so many fans. (And this guy wasn't even a hip-hopster... :) )

Trying to escape your freedom, you are ... :p
 
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