A Livable Minimum Wage

[billvon]

Wouldn't any increase still raise the price of goods, and still set off the same feedback?

Nope. If the increase in minimum wage matches inflation then there is no net effect; the VALUE of their wages stays the same relative to the cost of living.

Really? People voluntarily willing to work for a wage doesn't make sense?

?? I didn't say that. I said that people willing to work for a wage doesn't make sense as an argument against any specific minimum wage. (Size increased so you don't miss it this time.)

The Act that established minimum wage.

Right. It doesn't say anything about how raising the minimum wage increases inflation, either. Does that mean that that effect does not exist? Or are there effects of the minimum wage that are not covered in the FLSA?
The minimum wage is a good tool to use to reduce poverty, by helping ensure that a person with a full time job doesn't fall below the poverty line. That is not in the FLSA either; it's simply math.

 

[Vociferous]

Nope. If the increase in minimum wage matches inflation then there is no net effect; the VALUE of their wages stays the same relative to the cost of living.

Even though it still raises the price of goods for everyone?

?? I didn't say that. I said that people willing to work for a wage doesn't make sense as an argument against any specific minimum wage. (Size increased so you don't miss it this time.)

Oo, oo, oo, another loud ape. Nice to meet you.

Why does it matter what the "specific minimum wage" is if people are willing to work for less? Doesn't too high a minimum wage price some people out of jobs?

Right. It doesn't say anything about how raising the minimum wage increases inflation, either. Does that mean that that effect does not exist? Or are there effects of the minimum wage that are not covered in the FLSA?
The minimum wage is a good tool to use to reduce poverty, by helping ensure that a person with a full time job doesn't fall below the poverty line. That is not in the FLSA either; it's simply math.

Who said poverty didn't exist? You know, for someone who just made so much noise over a perceived straw man, I'd think you wouldn't want to immediately follow with one.

I'm not talking about the effects of the FLSA. I'm talking about its stated purpose. If you want to use the FLSA to accomplish other goals, that's your business.
The FLSA, nor even a higher minimum wage, is no guarantee against poverty or inflation.

 

[Kittamaru]

Don't feed the troll folks

 

[Seattle]

OK, let me give you a specific example.

When I was in high school I worked at a park as a laborer. I made minimum wage. The next year I got my lifeguard certification and subbed as a lifeguard on occasion and made more than minimum wage.

One of my tasks there was to babysit a janitor. He was a nice enough guy but had an IQ of about 70. He was required to have an assistant at all times when he was out maintaining the bathrooms in the park, because a few years before I got there he accidentally cut one of his fingers off while trying to change the toilet paper in a bathroom.

He had a girlfriend and was talking about getting married, but based on his conversations I suspected she would one day be shocked to find herself pregnant, and they'd be a family in any case.

This guy was simply not capable of doing anything else. He wasn't even capable of being a janitor on his own, and the county was doing him a favor keeping him employed. They recognized he would not be able to get a job anywhere else. He started at minimum wage and he did get occasional raises (because county rules say they have to) but he was paid as little as possible because he was so expensive to employ - the fallout from his injury was hideously expensive for the county, so much so that they absorbed the cost of having a full time assistant for him so it never happened again.

He HAD to stay in that job. If he lost it he would be in a world of hurt, because he was barely capable of interviewing for jobs to begin with, and had effectively no skills. You said above that you could always "sit at a computer/phone and do basic stuff" - he was not capable of that. You also said another option was to "work in a warehouse" - but if he tried he would either injure/kill himself or a coworker. It's easy to say that there's no need for people to stay in such jobs, but sometimes that's just not true.

(BTW I agree that displacing people like that by raising the minimum wage is a risk.)

That's not a typical example of someone who is being paid the minimum wage. That is a case of someone apparently not quite qualifying for disability income, early retirement or whatever.

That story is almost not even relevant to what we are discussing.

 

[Seattle]

Don't feed the troll folks

I don't see a troll here.

 

[Vociferous]

That's not a typical example of someone who is being paid the minimum wage. That is a case of someone apparently not quite qualifying for disability income, early retirement or whatever.

That story is almost not even relevant to what we are discussing.

Would you say that's an anecdote to justify general policy?

 

[iceaura]

That's not a typical example of someone who is being paid the minimum wage.

It's a common type, though. I've worked with a couple, known a couple.

That is a case of someone apparently not quite qualifying for disability income, early retirement or whatever.

Be a lot cheaper to pay an adequate minimum wage than that.

But again: the problem with a minimum wage is that it's a wage. That's an inefficient and problematic way to guarantee a minimum income.

 

[Vociferous]

It's a common type, though. I've worked with a couple, known a couple.

The definition of anecdotal.

Be a lot cheaper to pay an adequate minimum wage than that.

But again: the problem with a minimum wage is that it's a wage. That's an inefficient and problematic way to guarantee a minimum income.

When did minimum wage become minimum income? And since when is the latter guaranteed?

 

[iceaura]

The definition of anecdotal

That's one of the types of evidence found here, yes. It outranks no evidence, especially when argued.

When did minimum wage become minimum income? And since when is the latter guaranteed?

You missed the point. Try rereading.

 

[Seattle]

It's a common type, though. I've worked with a couple, known a couple.

Be a lot cheaper to pay an adequate minimum wage than that.

But again: the problem with a minimum wage is that it's a wage. That's an inefficient and problematic way to guarantee a minimum income.

A minimum income is something for society to decide to do or not do. A minimum wage is something that falls entirely on a business owner.

If I try to start a small business, I can't do it by paying brain dead people $15/hr.

 

[Kittamaru]

If I try to start a small business, I can't do it by paying brain dead people $15/hr.

Well, there's your problem right there - zombies generally aren't very useful in the workplace.

 

[spidergoat]

And since when is the latter guaranteed?

If and when we decide that no one working 40 hours a week should be living in poverty. When we decide that social mobility, rather than income inequality is a better way to arrange a society.

 

[Kittamaru]

If and when we decide that no one working 40 hours a week should be living in poverty. When we decide that social mobility, rather than income inequality is a better way to arrange a society.

But it's their choice to be impoverished... if they didn't eat so much damn Avacado Toast and go out and buy the newest iPhone every month, they'd be just fine.

[/sarcasm]

If only it wasn't a sad fact that we actually have leadership in Washington that believes such inane bullshit...

 

[billvon]

Even though it still raises the price of goods for everyone?

Yes, even though it raises the price of goods for everyone. If the increase in income is significant, and the increase in the price of goods is insignificant, then yes, it might well be a good idea.

Why does it matter what the "specific minimum wage" is if people are willing to work for less? Doesn't too high a minimum wage price some people out of jobs?

Yes - so we should not set it too high. It is a balance between a great many competing variables.

Who said poverty didn't exist?

No one.

Are you perhaps answering someone else's post?

I'm not talking about the effects of the FLSA. I'm talking about its stated purpose. If you want to use the FLSA to accomplish other goals, that's your business.
The FLSA, nor even a higher minimum wage, is no guarantee against poverty or inflation.

Agreed. To repeat - it is merely one tool to use to reduce poverty.

 

[billvon]

That's not a typical example of someone who is being paid the minimum wage.

Agreed. It's a subset. But they do in fact exist.

That story is almost not even relevant to what we are discussing.

Given that people are claiming that anyone can get a better paying job it's quite relevant. The above is an example of someone who cannot get a better paying job (and who will end up with a family.)

 

[Vociferous]

That's one of the types of evidence found here, yes. It outranks no evidence, especially when argued.

Not when making public policy that effects everyone. No evidence is reason for inaction, while anecdotal evidence is reason for biased action.

You missed the point. Try rereading.

Not sure that helped. You seem to say a minimum wage is bad, but the solution is to guarantee income. One seems to have become the other.

If and when we decide that no one working 40 hours a week should be living in poverty. When we decide that social mobility, rather than income inequality is a better way to arrange a society.

So a teenager flipping burgers should be able to support a family?
Is income inequality an intentional thing?
If so, DC and New York are top two.

Yes, even though it raises the price of goods for everyone. If the increase in income is significant, and the increase in the price of goods is insignificant, then yes, it might well be a good idea.

If the increase of income is significant, how can the increase in price be insignificant?

Yes - so we should not set it too high. It is a balance between a great many competing variables.

Don't some businesses, like restaurants, already have too small of margins to absorb any significant increase?
Don't those same businesses employ the least skilled workers?

Who said poverty didn't exist?

No one.

Exactly.

Are you perhaps answering someone else's post?

YOU: "You want to raise the minimum wage enough to get minimum wage earners out of poverty"
ME: "I didn't find anything about poverty in the FLSA."
YOU: "?? Uh, OK."
ME: "The Act that established minimum wage."
YOU: "Right. It doesn't say anything about how raising the minimum wage increases inflation, either. Does that mean that that effect does not exist? Or are there effects of the minimum wage that are not covered in the FLSA?
The minimum wage is a good tool to use to reduce poverty, by helping ensure that a person with a full time job doesn't fall below the poverty line. That is not in the FLSA either; it's simply math."
ME: "Who said poverty didn't exist?"

You seemed to be arguing the straw man that if it wasn't in the FLSA it didn't exist.
All caught up?

 

[billvon]

If the increase of income is significant, how can the increase in price be insignificant?

Because wages are only one small part of what drives inflation. Thus the increase in wage can be significant (say 5%) and the increase in inflation can be insignificant (say .1%.)

Don't some businesses, like restaurants, already have too small of margins to absorb any significant increase?

Definitely. And some families have too small an income to absorb any significant decrease in real wages. As always, it is a balance.

You seemed to be arguing the straw man that if it wasn't in the FLSA it didn't exist.

Nope.

I will let you play your asinine word games with yourself.

 

[Seattle]

Agreed. It's a subset. But they do in fact exist.

Given that people are claiming that anyone can get a better paying job it's quite relevant. The above is an example of someone who cannot get a better paying job (and who will end up with a family.)

That's an example of someone that shouldn't have a job and should be provided for by society (the government) and is being provided for somewhat in that case.

It's such a small subset that it's not a good reason for or against the minimum wage.

 

[billvon]

That's an example of someone that shouldn't have a job and should be provided for by society (the government) and is being provided for somewhat in that case.

That may well be true. In which case you have to compare the price of taking care of all those people vs the negative effects of maintaining (or increasing) a minimum wage.

It's such a small subset that it's not a good reason for or against the minimum wage.

That also might be true - but you'd need to show some data to back that up before the US signs up for a risk like that.

Most of us live in something of a bubble. Everyone here, for example, is smart enough to use a computer. And that may seem like a very low bar, but from my time working as a laborer and a waiter, there are a great many people below that bar, people we never see here. (And indeed that some people rarely see in their personal or professional lives.) So while it's easy to think that "almost no one is that dumb!" that's not a safe assumption.

 

[Vociferous]

Because wages are only one small part of what drives inflation. Thus the increase in wage can be significant (say 5%) and the increase in inflation can be insignificant (say .1%.)

So $8/hr becoming $8.40/hr is significant? Would that do away with poverty?
Any actual data supporting that %5 to .1% relationship?

Definitely. And some families have too small an income to absorb any significant decrease in real wages. As always, it is a balance.

But worth the risk nonetheless?

Nope.

I will let you play your asinine word games with yourself.

Do such ego displays do anything for you?