A.I. proves God exists...

He was trying to sell science to people, what’s wrong with that.
Men and women can be priests of science.
But, for some reason in some religions women can’t be priests.
You’re happy in your religion and with that position.
The spirit recognises different sexes, how earthly human for something that is suppose be above such matters as body parts.
Oh sure it's fair to sell science to people and I do so myself whenever I get the chance.

But the attempt to use a video like that to promote science as a substitute for religion is what I think was naïve and misguided. Dawkins did not understand what religion does for people, which is something science cannot do because its goal is quite different.
 
That example was one I happened to have come across before. No doubt there are plenty of others
The debates were very important and not silly at all. Bart Ehrman did the same thing with his books.
The topics ranged from.

Does god exist? (Lots of variations on this)
What is the evidence for the resurrection?
Is Catholicism a force for good?
Is the NT a reliable historical document?

This was a chance to see how leading spokesmen in Academia, the clergy politics actually viewed god, religion and atheists.
 
  • Like
Reactions: C C
I guess I don't know what the goal of religion is. I originally thought it was a search for truth. But from my observations from the outside, it appears to be more of a social club for confirmation bias.
 
No it was a lot more than that. Dawkins and the others mounted a sustained campaign to promote atheism and point out what they saw as the damage and pointlessness of religion. There were books, speeches, public debates and even some videos, if not actual films, attacking religion and seeking to replace it with a sense of wonder and aesthetic satisfaction from scientific understanding of the world instead. [...]

Yah, there did seem to be an activist or non-passive aspect to it that could be interpreted as political, ideological, or motivated. Certainly not anything like the League of Militant Atheists, but far less reluctance to grab the beast by the horns due to over-respect for sensitivities. Also, how they would speak out about medieval characteristics of Islam ("regressive left"), which contemporary liberals were often terrified to do because of the potential racist or Western imperialist backlash. New Atheists got stomped in assorted left-wing publications for vociferousness like that.

But I get how segments of the larger secular community valued them as cherished allies, like a libertarian making a roaring speech at a conservative convention. As the bromide goes, "it's complicated". I quoted many an item of theirs back in the day.
_
 
Last edited:
I guess I don't know what the goal of religion is. I originally thought it was a search for truth. But from my observations from the outside, it appears to be more of a social club for confirmation bias.
That's the nice version, everyone believes it because everyone else believes it, even mum and dad, no matter how absurd the claims.

The nasty versions include believers telling the unbelievers are going to burn in hell, their kids too, depending on the brand and school.

Worse versions include a kind of supremacism, where everyone is wrong apart from your club to the point where unbelievers are beneath you, like animals.
 
The debates were very important and not silly at all. Bart Ehrman did the same thing with his books.
The topics ranged from.

Does god exist? (Lots of variations on this)
What is the evidence for the resurrection?
Is Catholicism a force for good?
Is the NT a reliable historical document?

This was a chance to see how leading spokesmen in Academia, the clergy politics actually viewed god, religion and atheists.
Oh yes no doubt.

My principal object in these posts has been to point out that New Atheism was radical, in that it sought to evangelise in favour of atheism, in a way that had not been attempted before.

In fact it faded from the scene after a while, being criticised by several philosophers (including my favourite Massimo Pigliucci) and suffering from the defection of one of its leading lights, who converted to Christianity.

There is summary of its rise and fall on Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Atheism

Actually I wonder if New Atheism might have been a kind of immune response to the Intelligent Design movement. Both took place at about the same time and it has always seemed to me that New Atheism was unduly preoccupied with creationism, even though it is largely irrelevant to mainstream Christianity. It seemed to me that New Atheism might have been a sort of panic response, fearing that ID could take root politically and become hard to defeat. In fact ID has collapsed under the weight of its internal contradictions, without any help from the New Atheists.
 
Yah, there did seem to be an activist or non-passive aspect to it that could be interpreted as political, ideological, or motivated. Certainly not anything like the League of Militant Atheists, but far less reluctance to grab the beast by the horns due to over-respect for sensitivities. Also, how they would speak out about medieval characteristics of Islam ("regressive left"), which contemporary liberals were often terrified to do because of the potential racist or Western imperialist backlash. New Atheists got stomped in assorted left-wing publications for vociferousness like that.

But I get how segments of the larger secular community valued them as cherished allies, like a libertarian making a roaring speech at a conservative convention. As the bromide goes, "it's complicated". I quoted many an item of theirs back in the day.
_
Oh that's another can of worms. I gather from the Wiki article that New Atheism eventually acquired a political dimension, or rather had a political dimension imposed upon it by people who wanted to co opt it or find reasons to diss it. But that looks to me like just what happens to any movement in the snake pit of American culture wars. I don't personally think it is important.
 
Both he and Hitchens referred to a sense of comfort, belonging and community.
Yes.
Hitchens went further and called religion "toys" like a child is attached to.
An interesting take on it. Never heard it expressed quite that way. At my most cynical, I often see religion as a symptom of an unwillingness to let go of a parent figure.

That being said, I am not against religion in principle (as many atheists seem to be). The two above views are not incompatible, IMO. One can achieve a sense of spiritual comfort belonging and community - without the mythology having to actually be true.
 
Oh yes no doubt.

My principal object in these posts has been to point out that New Atheism was radical, in that it sought to evangelise in favour of atheism, in a way that had not been attempted before.

In fact it faded from the scene after a while, being criticised by several philosophers (including my favourite Massimo Pigliucci) and suffering from the defection of one of its leading lights, who converted to Christianity.

There is summary of its rise and fall on Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Atheism

Actually I wonder if New Atheism might have been a kind of immune response to the Intelligent Design movement. Both took place at about the same time and it has always seemed to me that New Atheism was unduly preoccupied with creationism, even though it is largely irrelevant to mainstream Christianity. It seemed to me that New Atheism might have been a sort of panic response, fearing that ID could take root politically and become hard to defeat. In fact ID has collapsed under the weight of its internal contradictions, without any help from the New Atheists.
Since New atheism was not a thing until someone coined the term, it's decline (whatever that actually means) is not really a thing either.
Dawkins was an atheist from being 15 and said this about the four horseman.

"Dawkins writes in the introduction to the 10th anniversary edition of the book (The god Delusion): "I don't object to the horseman label, by the way. I'm less keen on 'new atheist': it isn't clear to me how we differ from old atheists."

What really matters is numbers and the "no religion" crowd is growing as a thing in the UK at least.

Ai/Google - Brunel Uni and Kings college London given at refs.

  • Census Results: The 2021 Census for England and Wales showed that 37.2% of the population identify as having "no religion," up sharply from 25.0% in 2011. Meanwhile, those identifying as Christian dropped below 50% for the first time, down to 46.2%. [1]
  • Belief Trends: Data highlighted by the Explaining Atheism project led by Queen's University Belfast indicates that atheists now outnumber theists in Britain, marking what academics describe as the country's first "atheist age". [1, 2]
  • Generational Shifts: Younger generations (Millennials and Gen Z) are substantially less likely to practice traditional religions or pass religious beliefs on to their children compared to older generations. [1, 2]
 
Since New atheism was not a thing until someone coined the term, it's decline (whatever that actually means) is not really a thing either.
Dawkins was an atheist from being 15 and said this about the four horseman.

"Dawkins writes in the introduction to the 10th anniversary edition of the book (The god Delusion): "I don't object to the horseman label, by the way. I'm less keen on 'new atheist': it isn't clear to me how we differ from old atheists."

What really matters is numbers and the "no religion" crowd is growing as a thing in the UK at least.

Ai/Google - Brunel Uni and Kings college London given at refs.

  • Census Results: The 2021 Census for England and Wales showed that 37.2% of the population identify as having "no religion," up sharply from 25.0% in 2011. Meanwhile, those identifying as Christian dropped below 50% for the first time, down to 46.2%. [1]
  • Belief Trends: Data highlighted by the Explaining Atheism project led by Queen's University Belfast indicates that atheists now outnumber theists in Britain, marking what academics describe as the country's first "atheist age". [1, 2]
  • Generational Shifts: Younger generations (Millennials and Gen Z) are substantially less likely to practice traditional religions or pass religious beliefs on to their children compared to older generations. [1, 2]
Oh it was a thing all right, as both my explanation and the Wiki article show pretty clearly. And its decline, as described in the Wiki article, was thus a real thing too.

Dawkins was being thoroughly disingenuous in his remark about it being no different from traditional atheism. Its approach was very different, being for the first time an evangelical drive, of the kind more typically associated with evangelical religion. In fact it deliberately copied the same methods, as shown in that video I referenced.
 
Oh it was a thing all right
Ok. Let us say yes it was a thing. Dawkin's motivation was creationism and ID and Hitchens was religion generally and Islam in particular. Say they lifted techniques directly from the TV evangelists. What is the issue? Exactly? Perhaps us atheists needed to move with the times? What's the harm?
And its decline
Well 50% of the horsemen died and remaining quarter has since had a stroke, so the energy has probably has died off somewhat.
As I cited, the numbers suggest atheism is on the increase and that is the main thing. The debates, books and appearances on talk shows were fun while it lasted, decline does not mean death.
 
Last edited:
it deliberately copied the same methods
The Blind Watchmaker was published 20 years before "new atheism," that needs restating.
A sequence of events is also worth mentioning.

The book list is basically porn for an atheist.

2001 911.
2004 The end of faith, Religion Terror and the future of reason.
2005 Dover trial.
2006 The God Delusion.
2006 Letter to Christian nation.
2006 Breaking the spell.
2007 God is not great, how religion poisons everything.
 
The Blind Watchmaker was published 20 years before "new atheism," that needs restating.
A sequence of events is also worth mentioning.

The book list is basically porn for an atheist.

2001 911.
2004 The end of faith, Religion Terror and the future of reason.
2005 Dover trial.
2006 The God Delusion.
2006 Letter to Christian nation.
2006 Breaking the spell.
2007 God is not great, how religion poisons everything.
That book encapsulates what I call the “Dawkins Blunder”, namely to think religion is about providing an alternative story of the creation of the cosmos and life. It is excellent on the science but entirely misses the point when it comes to religion.
 
[...] As I cited, the numbers suggest atheism is on the increase [...]

In the US (if not elsewhere, too) it is nones that are on the increase, anyway, which just indicates lack of formal affiliation. (Heck, people who are merely non-denominational will check the label.) Nones are actually a motley, inconsistent bunch (akin to political independents). Both theists and non-theists want to claim them, but they're all over the place identity-wise. Like John Lennon, one of them can still sport New Agey beliefs even if precisely rejecting organized religion or a particular personified concept (god or other being).
- - - - - - - - - - - - -

Nones
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion#Types

EXCERPT: Nones can be used to refer to those who are unaffiliated with any organized religion. This use derives from surveys of religious affiliation, in which "None" (or "None of the above") is typically the last choice. Since this status can be chosen because of lack of organizational affiliation or lack of personal belief, it is a more specific concept than irreligion. A 2015 Gallup, Inc. poll concluded that in the United States "nones" were growing as a percentage of the population, while Christians were declining and non-Christians also increasing but to a much lesser degree, since the 1950s.

New research shows God-believing ‘nones’ align more closely with religious Americans
https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/1116268

EXCERPT: Nearly one in three Americans now identify as religious “nones,” and new research from University of Nebraska-Lincoln sociologist Philip Schwadel suggests that this fast-growing group is far more ideologically diverse than commonly assumed.

In a new study, published in Sociology of Religion, Schwadel found that religious nones who believe in God are far more likely than other nones to have similar policy preferences to their religiously affiliated counterparts. Nones - or those who identify as atheist, agnostic or nothing in particular - have grown from approximately 16% of the population in 2007 to 28% according to the most recent data from the Pew Research Center.

Using data from the General Social Survey, a nationally representative survey of adults in the United States, Schwadel examined 16 measures ranging from attitudes on capital punishment to government spending and political intolerance. God-believing nones are more likely to support school prayer, the death penalty and making pornography illegal, while opposing abortion. They are less likely than other nones to support increased spending on welfare, scientific research, education or to protect the environment.

These findings build on Schwadel’s previous work documenting the growing diversity among the religiously unaffiliated. While Americans increasingly disaffiliate from religion, many still assume the nones represent a single ideological bloc. Schwadel’s new research points out that isn’t true.

_
 
Last edited:
exchemist:
Come on James, that’s just silly. New Atheism, obviously, is the name given to a specific evangelical drive by the people mentioned. That is why I capitalised it.
It's interesting to me that you chose the word "evangelical" there. Atheism isn't a religion. It doesn't make any proclamations about how people ought to live, or make moral claims, or prescribe what to worship or how one ought to go about it. In its simplest, most common form, it is just the state of not being convinced that any god exists. All those other things (how we should live, what kinds of actions are good and bad, what we ought to believe once we have dropped our god beliefs) are very much up for debate.

Evangelism is a word that usually describes zealous preaching and advocacy of a specific belief system. The evangelist says that one ought to "convert" to his brand of religion because then one or more of the following will be true: (a) one's current life will be improved because God (or some other force) prefers believers over non-believers, (b) one will avoid the punishment meted out by the god for one's "sins" at some future time (usually after one's death), (c) if only everybody in the world would wake up to belief and respect for the True God(s), the world would be a much better place for everybody, for various reasons, (d) one will experience a special sense of contentment, fulfilment and security once one is under the umbrella of the Faith.

Now, I think I understand why you chose that word to describe those people whom others have described as the "New Atheists". (Again, I note that this is not a label that has generally been adopted by atheists since the early 2000s to describe themselves.)

I think that you see these "New Atheists" as impertinent upstarts who should just shut up about their (lack of) religious beliefs, leave the real believers in peace and just generally stop blaming the ills of the world on religion. Atheists should have some respect!

If any single feature stands out as differentiating the "new atheism" from the old atheism, I think it is precisely that the "new atheists" are speaking out about the evils of religion, rather than just tolerating those evils. Granted, it's a lot safer to speak out when you have higher numbers and when you don't have to worry too much about being lynched by religious mobs for pointing out the evils of religion, so there's that (at least in western democracies, to a greater extent than in the past).

I think the problem that many religious people have with outspoken atheists is that they make the religious feel uncomfortable by pointing out inconvenient truths. They point to the hypocrisies of religious people and religious authorities and religious organisations. They point to very real harms caused by various flavors of religious dogma. They point to the lack of any good evidence for anything supernatural, let alone gods. Religious people, generally speaking, don't want to think about those kinds of things very much. Or they want to pretend they aren't complicit in the crimes and other immoral acts perpetrated by their religious leaders.

Religion has had literally millennia during which it has demanded and expected respect by default, that it has not always earned. In fact, religious believers still vastly outnumber non-believers. I understand why some feel besieged by evil atheist evangelists. It didn't used to be that way in the past. Outspoken atheists were rare, and when they did speak out they were dismissed without much thought and/or pilloried.

I understand the hankering of the religious for the good old days when asking inconvenient questions about god and religion was just not done in "polite" society. But, personally, I'm glad that, at least in some places in the world, we now live in a world in which some people can be openly critical of gods and religions and not be executed and/or tortured for their criticism.
 
No it was a lot more than that. Dawkins and the others mounted a sustained campaign to promote atheism and point out what they saw as the damage and pointlessness of religion.
Sure! And can you tell me what's wrong with that?

I mean, you're not going to argue that religions of all stripes haven't mounted continuous and sustained campaigns to promote their own beliefs literally over the course of millenia, are you?

It would be hypocritical to criticise the atheists while giving the religious a free pass. Wouldn't it?

Is there a problem with sharing ideas about and debating religion, suddenly?
There were books, speeches, public debates and even some videos, if not actual films, attacking religion and seeking to replace it with a sense of wonder and aesthetic satisfaction from scientific understanding of the world instead.
That reminds me of something Douglas Adams wrote (fairly sure it was him, anyway). He mused on why it isn't enough to wonder at the natural beauty of a garden and why some feel obliged to add in some fairies at the bottom of it, as if it isn't enough in itself.
This is not a scientific video, but a series of vistas of impressive sights of nature, accompanied by swelling romantic music, designed to engage the emotions and aesthetic sensibility of the viewer.
Religion, of course, would never use any kind of propaganda to try to attact adherents by appealing to their emotions and aesthetic sensibilities. Right?
The idea, fairly plainly, is to make them come to see science as able to fill the psychological place in their lives that is occupied, for many, by religion.
Maybe that's what Dawkins wants. I'm not so sure that science is up to that task, on its own.

I do, however, think that it's better to believe true things than false ones, even when it is psychologically less comforting to do so. But I appreciate that not everybody thinks the way I do.
 
My principal object in these posts has been to point out that New Atheism was radical, in that it sought to evangelise in favour of atheism, in a way that had not been attempted before.
Jesus was a radical preacher. Christianity was radical once. Seems like maybe you have a double standard. Or you're just conservative about this particular topic.
In fact it faded from the scene after a while, being criticised by several philosophers (including my favourite Massimo Pigliucci) and suffering from the defection of one of its leading lights, who converted to Christianity.
If you're referring to Aayan Hirsi Ali, I don't think her conversion to Christianity had any lasting impact on the atheist "movement". It's understandable, given her strict Muslim background and other things going on in her life, that she might become persuaded by another religion. I'd have to go and look back at the reasons she gave at the time to comment further. But, of course, like everyone else, she's more than entitled to believe whatever she wants to believe, insofar as it doesn't impact negatively on others.
Actually I wonder if New Atheism might have been a kind of immune response to the Intelligent Design movement. Both took place at about the same time and it has always seemed to me that New Atheism was unduly preoccupied with creationism, even though it is largely irrelevant to mainstream Christianity.
What do you think of as "mainstream Christianity"?

There is a very large number of people in the United States, in particular, who consider themselves very much to be "mainstream Christians", while also believing in the most literal interpretation of Genesis, Noah's flood, and all that.

Intelligent Design was and is just Creationism-lite, at least in the form in which it was promoted by its almost exclusively American evangelical Christian proponents. It's a fundamentally anti-science movement rather than one that directly impacts on atheism. The motivation for it, of course, is that the fundamentalist Christians feel threatened by the science of evolution and would rather pretend that it isn't true. Also very significant is that pesky "freedom of religion" clause in the US Bill of Rights, which supposedly prevents those fundamentalists from teaching religious dogma in public schools. But the fundies thought they might be able to get around that by lying to the kids by telling them that the religious propaganda is science.

It's worth noting that there are plenty of devout Christian biologists who heartily embrace science and the theory of evolution and who reject so-called "intelligent design theory". It's not like one has to be an atheist to accept the science of evolution. The science says nothing about religion or gods.
It seemed to me that New Atheism might have been a sort of panic response, fearing that ID could take root politically and become hard to defeat.
A more general science denial from the Christian nationalist Right in the United States has certainly taken root there for the time being, so maybe the atheists had a point. Not sure about panic, exactly, but the worries seem to have been borne out.
In fact ID has collapsed under the weight of its internal contradictions, without any help from the New Atheists.
I'm not sure about that. Scientists fought back against the failings of ID and many of them are also atheists. It was science that won the day, though, not atheism as such.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top