Galaxies going faster than light ? [v.2]

I ask again: if I glue a few pennies to a balloon, then expand the balloon, why do the pennies not expand?
After all, the atoms of the pennies are not physically bound - they are only held together by the forces nature, right?

Same logic.
 
DaveC426913 said:
I ask again: if I glue a few pennies to a balloon, then expand the balloon, why do the pennies not expand?
After all, the atoms of the pennies are not physically bound - they are only held together by the forces nature, right?

Same logic.
Click to expand...


But the space between pennies do. So does the space between Earth & Moon. So does the space constituting 4 Kms of aLIGO arm. Can we not detect it? I mean direct detection through remodeled aLIGO type interferometer.
 
Kittamaru said:
Why would there be any expansion on that level? The other basic forces of the universe would, I feel safe in saying, counteract it entirely.

You... are familiar with such forces, yes?
Click to expand...

But Kittamaru, expansion of space cannot be counteracted..if it expands, it expands. What you are talking is effect of gravity or EM bond is more.

For example, if the GW can distort the space between 4 km aLIGO arm, then it might as well expand. We can talk about magnitude if you so desire.
 
The God said:
But the space between pennies do. So does the space between Earth & Moon. So does the space constituting 4 Kms of aLIGO arm. Can we not detect it? I mean direct detection through remodeled aLIGO type interferometer.
Click to expand...
No, we cannot. Your examples are things hold together by forces. Their distances remain constant for the same reason the pennies remain constant.

The place where distances are increasing are the voids.
 
Schmelzer said:
No, we cannot. Your examples are things hold together by forces. Their distances remain constant for the same reason the pennies remain constant.

The place where distances are increasing are the voids.
Click to expand...

Science of convenience, but with you on this I will not argue. You know the subject.
 
The God said:
But the space between pennies do.
Click to expand...

Look, if any ol' force can increase the space between atoms, just because it's applied to the penny, does that mean I can pull a penny out like pizza dough with just my hands? It doesn't matter how gently I pull, right? since any force applied to the atoms at all - no matter how weak - will cause them to separate.

That preposterous, as you must admit. Are you beginning to see that your conceptions of interacting forces is erroneous?

I can't gently kneed a penny into a disc with my hands. Small forces are swamped by large forces. They aren't cumulative.
 
Dywyddyr said:
And NASA very probably have done so.


No.
The programme is NOT NASA-presented. Or sponsored or anything else.
It's yet another Discovery Channel "documentary" (shark week!).


Very probably: but it's not necessarily what NASA actually said:
The show opens with narration that suggests that NASA keeps "files" of phenomena that science cannot explain. The fact is, the only such files are those fabricated by the show and supported by comments from cranks as well as a few real scientists that have been deliberately quote mined to make all the conspiracy nonsense sound plausible.


False.
Click to expand...

It's interesting to find mainstream people deny mainstream unexplained . Especially when the information comes from NASA ; which is a mainstream institution .

Actually it is fascinating , reading all these mainstreamers stubble around trying to explain NASA's findings. The psychology is fascinating.
 
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The God said:
But the space between pennies do. So does the space between Earth & Moon. So does the space constituting 4 Kms of aLIGO arm. Can we not detect it? I mean direct detection through remodeled aLIGO type interferometer.
Click to expand...
The spacetime between the Earth and Moon are under the auspices of gravity not of spacetime expansion.
We know that and so obviously no notable experiment like aLIGO created to confirm gravitational waves, is going to be remodeled to placate such nonsensical rantings.
The God said:
But Kittamaru, expansion of space cannot be counteracted..if it expands, it expands. What you are talking is effect of gravity or EM bond is more.
Click to expand...
Entirely wrong: The effect of the overall expansion of spacetime certainly can be couteracted and/or decoupled from.
The God said:
For example, if the GW can distort the space between 4 km aLIGO arm, then it might as well expand. We can talk about magnitude if you so desire.
Click to expand...
But it doesn't expand and we can be rather certain of that simply by observation, despite your fabricated fairy tale stories.
The God said:
Science of convenience, but with you on this I will not argue. You know the subject.
Click to expand...
We call that another cop out! :D
You also mean as opposed to your own "science of convenience" as dictated by your agenda? :) And while Schmelzer may certainly know the subject, just about everyone else here other than yourself appear to have a reasonable grasp on the subject.
 
Dywyddyr said:
What it ACTUALLY states is "NASA-Related Programming on Other TV Channels".
I.e. the content mentions NASA.
It doesn't - at all - say that the programme is either supported by NASA or that it's from/ by NASA.
Click to expand...

Hmmmm.... well go to the offical NASA site ; as I did ; put in NASA UNEXPLAINED FILES ; in search ; and bingo
 
river said:
By the :

http://nasasearch.nasa.gov/search?query=Nasa unexplained files&affiliate=nasa&utf8=✓

The 3rd site down you will find affiliation with science channel
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:)
That changes nothing re your mistaken misconception and/or misunderstanding re spacetime expansion at FTL and the facts as have been explained to you since the post 2 and of course the three reputable papers.
The Discovery and Science channels generally put things very basically for children and other less sciency people and the particular TV show you refer to is known to sensationalise whenever it can as I have already explained.
The facts stand that the universal speed limit of "c" applies to anything with mass: It does not apply to spacetime and consequently we do have distant galaxies with a recessional velocity of FTL.


But of course you can support what you claim by E-Mailing NASA yourself and showing that all here are wrong. Why not do that? :)
In the mean time.......
http://helios.gsfc.nasa.gov/qa_sp_ex.html#sciam
"I would like to add a cautionary note, in case you might be wondering. Don't get confused! This expansion does not violate Einstein's theory of relativity, even though the imaginary dough of the even larger Universe, which we can't see beyond that edge, appears to recede at speeds larger than the speed of light. The dough represents space itself, and in our expanding Universe space itself is expanding, carrying the galaxies (represented by the raisins) along on a ride. Einstein's limit to the speed of light applies only to motion through space, and not to expansion of space itself".


http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/ab...g-faster-than-the-speed-of-light-intermediate
However, for the simplest interpretation of your question, the answer is that the universe does expand faster than the speed of light, and, perhaps more surprisingly, some of the galaxies we can see right now are currently moving away from us faster than the speed of light!

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/glenn/technology/warp/warp.html
 
paddoboy said:
:)
That changes nothing re your mistaken misconception and/or misunderstanding re spacetime expansion at FTL and the facts as have been explained to you since the post 2 and of course the three reputable papers.
The Discovery and Science channels generally put things very basically for children and other less sciency people and the particular TV show you refer to is known to sensationalise whenever it can as I have already explained.
The facts stand that the universal speed limit of "c" applies to anything with mass: It does not apply to spacetime and consequently we do have distant galaxies with a recessional velocity of FTL.


But of course you can support what you claim by E-Mailing NASA yourself and showing that all here are wrong. Why not do that? :)
In the mean time.......
http://helios.gsfc.nasa.gov/qa_sp_ex.html#sciam
"I would like to add a cautionary note, in case you might be wondering. Don't get confused! This expansion does not violate Einstein's theory of relativity, even though the imaginary dough of the even larger Universe, which we can't see beyond that edge, appears to recede at speeds larger than the speed of light. The dough represents space itself, and in our expanding Universe space itself is expanding, carrying the galaxies (represented by the raisins) along on a ride. Einstein's limit to the speed of light applies only to motion through space, and not to expansion of space itself".


http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/ab...g-faster-than-the-speed-of-light-intermediate
However, for the simplest interpretation of your question, the answer is that the universe does expand faster than the speed of light, and, perhaps more surprisingly, some of the galaxies we can see right now are currently moving away from us faster than the speed of light!

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/glenn/technology/warp/warp.html
Click to expand...

Or YOU COULD simply watch the program paddy.
 
river said:
Hmmmm.... well go to the offical NASA site ; as I did ; put in NASA UNEXPLAINED FILES ; in search ; and bingo
Click to expand...
I don't know if you're being deliberately dishonest or you're just stupid.
It STILL doesn't say - or even hint - that the programme has any endorsement whatsoever from NASA.
Do you not understand "NASA-related"?
 
river said:
Or YOU COULD simply watch the program paddy.
Click to expand...
:) If it was on at this time I would. It would be nice to reveal how I believe you were either mistaken or misinterpreted.
Let me add, I have often heard it said that galaxies are moving away at FTL in sciency shows: But inevitably it is always followed up with words to the effect of what is actually happening is that it is spacetime expanding between galaxies at FTL.
 
river said:
Or YOU COULD simply watch the program paddy.
Click to expand...
I've also given you a NASA site that explains exactly what everyone has been trying to explain to you here.
here it is again.....
http://helios.gsfc.nasa.gov/qa_sp_ex.html#sciam
"I would like to add a cautionary note, in case you might be wondering. Don't get confused! This expansion does not violate Einstein's theory of relativity, even though the imaginary dough of the even larger Universe, which we can't see beyond that edge, appears to recede at speeds larger than the speed of light. The dough represents space itself, and in our expanding Universe space itself is expanding, carrying the galaxies (represented by the raisins) along on a ride. Einstein's limit to the speed of light applies only to motion through space, and not to expansion of space itself".
 
Repeatedly ignoring information that has been presented to you, while also refusing to support your own claims, amounts to trolling. Please avoid such behaviour in future.
paddoboy said:
I've also given you a NASA site that explains exactly what everyone has been trying to explain to you here.
here it is again.....
http://helios.gsfc.nasa.gov/qa_sp_ex.html#sciam
"I would like to add a cautionary note, in case you might be wondering. Don't get confused! This expansion does not violate Einstein's theory of relativity, even though the imaginary dough of the even larger Universe, which we can't see beyond that edge, appears to recede at speeds larger than the speed of light. The dough represents space itself, and in our expanding Universe space itself is expanding, carrying the galaxies (represented by the raisins) along on a ride. Einstein's limit to the speed of light applies only to motion through space, and not to expansion of space itself".
Click to expand...

Irrelavant
 
river said:
Finally found the program .

Enjoy ; or not !!!!


http://www.imdb.com/title/tt4275184/?ref_=ttep_ep3
Click to expand...
:D
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt4275184/plotsummary?ref_=tt_stry_pl
"The Hubble Telescope spots thousands of unidentified objects travelling faster than light. Are we being watched? Or could we ourselves be aliens from another world?"
:)
All you have done is confirm how gullible you are in excepting
the sensationalistic claim of a sensationalistic TV show, not of any NASA say so. C'mon river, you are smarter than that, surely?
 
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