Ultimate male feminist?

[Secular Sanity]

They felt that women tend to be possess a number of traits that make them (on average) inferior to men when it comes to friendship.

Do you feel this way? Do you think that men make better friends than women do? Do they treat their friends better than women do? Are women high maintenance and too petty? Are men more tolerant?

The researchers say these three studies show that men are more tolerant of their friends’ failings than women. [Source]

However, Dr Gindo Tampubolon, of the Centre for Socio-Cultural Change, said that his findings suggest that women are better friends than men.

"Friendship between women seems to be fundamentally different to friendship between men," explained Dr Tampubolon. "It's much deeper and more moral: it's about the relationship itself rather than what they can get out of it."

The bottom line is that women see friendship as a means to "express themselves and form their identity," while men look at relationships in a self-seeking way, as in "what's in it for me," he said. [Source]

 

[Secular Sanity]

Yeah, you know, I'll worry more about Koestler.

Whoa, is it true that Simone de Beauvoir groomed young, underage female lovers for Sartre?

 

[Secular Sanity]

The issue on this thread has been about real friendships vs ruse between men and women. There are several ways this can play out. If a man has no intent of real friendship but a ploy in hopes of only getting in your pants, that's not a true friendship. That's pretty simple. Now its possible that they get to know you and genuinely like you as a person and want to maintain it for its own sake then of course that would be a friend but that's not a given.

You reminded me of a short story written in 1905 by Jean Blewett.

The story relies heavily for humorous effect on gender stereotypes. Eunice embraces independence and the single life, but her ideas about intellectual, platonic, relationships with men are shown to be naïve, amusing, and untenable.

The Experiences of a Woman Bachelor

Being the confidential letters which passed between Eunice Complin, and her bosom friend, Kate Deming, on the subject of platonic love and kindred theories. A few short excerpts.

My Dear Kate—the only kind of love I am going to give or receive is platonic love. There are splendid men in the world, and men, my dear, make better friends than women. There are people narrow enough to deny that a close friendship can exist for any length of time between a man and a woman—perhaps I should say, rather, between a young man and a young woman. It is to refute my own satisfaction this libel on human nature that I have chosen for my device “calm, passionless, platonic love.” Yours lovingly,

Eunice Complin

My Dear Eunice—I know men and women, and I tell you in confidence, that the average woman has no business writing her letters till she’s fifty, and the average man has no business trying to establish platonic relations between a pretty girl and himself till he’s too old to notice whether her eyes are brown or blue—and dear only knows how old that is. Yours, with lots of love,

Kate Deming

 

[Secular Sanity]

I certainly have a different experience, although truth be told, I have never questioned my straight male friends if we are friends because they believe there is a chance of a relationship. Because that would risk our friendship and frankly, would make me very very uncomfortable, because I certainly do not see them that way.

If my memory serves me correctly, you hooked up with an old friend, didn't you?

I loved this commercial. It's hilarious. Maybe she sparked a bromance, eh?

 

[Secular Sanity]

There is something more sinister going here I will reveal this once my work has reached sufficient maturity. I personally believe this is a military attack on the social structure and well bieng of the human awareness it's so damaging that most are not even aware of the ascociated consequences. I have not isolated the source.

I have. Here you go. SOURCE

 

[Bowser]

All this reminds of a time when I was much younger. I was approached by a girl I knew who had an interest in me. Stupid as I was at the time, the best reply I could give her was "No." To this day I wish I would have answered more graciously with an explanation as to why I didn't share the same attraction. I think some woman must face the same circumstance many times over. It's not easy to reject someone, even when you're not interested in a serious relationship.

 

[birch]

The bottom line is that women see friendship as a means to "express themselves and form their identity," while men look at relationships in a self-seeking way, as in "what's in it for me," he said. [Source]

I don't think this is true. I think both genders see real friendships to express themselves and form their identity through mutual sharing. I think the difference is ones real motives are in relation to a particular person. There are women who use men and even women with the pretense of friendship and specifically in regard to men dangling the proverbial carrot to keep them hanging on with the possibility of fulfillment though its a ruse just as there are men who try to use the facade of platonic friendship which is generally foremost as recognition and respect for the individual as a stepping stone to intimacy by garnering trust. The what's in it for me mentality has no gender bias whether its money, sex etc. These same people could have genuine friends of either sex but the male more heavily influenced by patriarchal entitlement and sexism would tend to see women as either useful sexually or not, rarely having any genuine friendships with women.

I actually have more male friends than female and I know they are not attracted to me in a sexual way because I am not their type. Through life experience you just know what type of person someone is in relation to real friendship potential. There are plenty of males desire mutuality in all relations. The truth is one cant really be genuinely attracted if its not mutual, those feelings should die down but if the friendship is real that will remain. An honest person would just realize you just don't meet each others wants in certain ways. Its an enlightening moment, should become more aware of yourself and even strengthen and refine as far as your individuality and others even if there is initial disappointment after these experiences are processed correctly and get you closer to attracting what is more compatible. Rejection can be a blessing in disguise and growth potential and can even help you understand yourself better by understanding differences. Sometimes its a lack of awareness, low self esteem or not knowing what fits them so they mistakenly take rejection as proof of unworthiness. Even if one was rejected brutally or with false or negative projections. You don't have to internalize it. One can soul search and assess what one wants to change or not. It may be a painful inner journey to learn but if its processed right its positive. If one is rejected for a quality that is hated only you can determine if it should be changed. If its just unique to you and not hurting others, value the gem that you are because the one who wants you may love what another couldn't or wouldn't appreciate. Sometimes codependent people base their value on others acceptance or even subjective opinion and that is doomed to failure and pain. One must develop their own identity and by relationships we learn more about ourselves through similarity and differences including evolutionary growth but you have to value yourself first and keep it a work in progress. Everyone deserves respect and love, just have to understand the circle does not fit in the square. There are myriads of different people out there, just have to understand there are people for you as well as those who rejected you. In these moments of pain and rejection we don't realize no one should determine our self worth.

If someone is continually attracted ( i dont mean people who are confused, lost etc) when you are not as in they do not care if you feel violated or uncomfortable about advances it is an indication that they see you more as an object. Because its about what they want from you when real relationships are about mutual feelings. This hidden dynamic isnt usually explained this way but it is the blunt truth. These male friends of mine do not want any sexually viable female just as women don't want any available male, even based on looks. Um, their balanced. Its the type of male that views women whether consciously or not through a misogynistic, objectified and only sexual lens that don't take women seriously for friendship. They are of the domination mindset, women are objects to be manipulated for their wants only. It is just whats in it for me for this type though they will give opposite lip service. After you learn them, easy to detect this type.

 

[Tiassa]

Whoa, is it true that Simone de Beauvoir groomed young, underage female lovers for Sartre?

I don't know, I figure that's the sort of thing an S/S Trooper would want to look up.

But thank you for providing substantiation for De Beauvoir's point. "Woman bachelor", indeed.

 

[Bells]

If my memory serves me correctly, you hooked up with an old friend, didn't you?

Yes. And it was a huge mistake. Never to be repeated.

I loved this commercial. It's hilarious. Maybe she sparked a bromance, eh?

Only if he felt she was inferior to them.. since you know, apparently that is what it's meant to be..

 

[Secular Sanity]

I actually have more male friends than female and I know they are not attracted to me in a sexual way because I am not their type.

Sorry, I'm just not buying it. They might not want a relationship with you, but ten bucks says they'd bang it out with you.

I don't know, I figure that's the sort of thing an S/S Trooper would want to look up.

Hardy har har. I think that you were unaware of her uh, um...pedophilia, that is until Tali89 pointed it out. She even lost her teaching credentials over it, eew!

But thank you for providing substantiation for De Beauvoir's point. "Woman bachelor", indeed.

No problem. The quote was taken from her book “The Second Sex”. James Donaldson, Principle of the University of St. Andrews, was the author of “Woman; Her Position and Influence in Ancient Greece, Rome, and Among the Early Christians.” At the time, a review was given, which said that his book constitutes a survey of that increasing power which, though somewhat retarded by the coming of Christianity, has, with various ups and downs, culminated in the creed of feminism.

Spoiler

“Donaldson, a historian of woman, remarked that the definitions: “man is a male human being, woman is a female human being,” have been asymmetrically distorted; and it is among the psychoanalysts in particular that man is defined as a human being and woman as a female – whenever she behaves as a human being she is said to imitate the male. The psychoanalyst describes the female child, the young girl, as incited to identification with the mother and the father, torn between “viriloid” and “feminine” tendencies; whereas I conceive her as hesitating between the role of object, other which is offered her, and the assertion of her liberty. Thus it is that we shall agree on a certain number of facts, especially when we take up the avenues of inauthentic flight open to women. But we accord them by no means the same significance as does the Freudian or the Adlerian. For us woman is defined as a human being in quest of values in a world of values, a world of which it is indispensable to know the economic and social structure. We shall study woman in an existential perspective with due regard to her total situation.”

 

[Secular Sanity]

Yes. And it was a huge mistake. Never to be repeated.

Oh, sorry to hear that. I thought that's who you were with now. Was it a "he", and was he an old friend of yours, or your ex's?

 

[Bells]

Oh, sorry to hear that. I thought that's who you were with now. Was it a "he", and was he an old friend of yours, or your ex's?

Single and happily so. And he was a friend of mine. Hence my comment.

There are certain dynamics between friends and when one has feelings for the other, that dynamic changes. Looking back now, with a clearer head, there were a lot of things that I missed. Hence why I find this subject interesting and frankly, if my other male friends, some of whom I have been friends with since high school, felt the same way, I can safely say I would distance myself from that friendship. Because it can be detrimental and frankly, it comes down to an issue of trust. I trust my friends to do right by themselves and by me as their friend. When that dynamic changes, then yes, for me at least, it becomes a trust issue. I would question myself about whether they are saying things to me to benefit them, as one example.

 

[BrianHarwarespecialist]

I have. Here you go. SOURCE

Ok I might have over reacted but you never really know what experiments the military is conducting on civilians I mean that literally.

 

[BrianHarwarespecialist]

I don't think this is true. I think both genders see real friendships to express themselves and form their identity through mutual sharing. I think the difference is ones real motives are in relation to a particular person. There are women who use men and even women with the pretense of friendship and specifically in regard to men dangling the proverbial carrot to keep them hanging on with the possibility of fulfillment though its a ruse just as there are men who try to use the facade of platonic friendship which is generally foremost as recognition and respect for the individual as a stepping stone to intimacy by garnering trust. The what's in it for me mentality has no gender bias whether its money, sex etc. These same people could have genuine friends of either sex but the male more heavily influenced by patriarchal entitlement and sexism would tend to see women as either useful sexually or not, rarely having any genuine friendships with women.

I actually have more male friends than female and I know they are not attracted to me in a sexual way because I am not their type. Through life experience you just know what type of person someone is in relation to real friendship potential. There are plenty of males desire mutuality in all relations. The truth is one cant really be genuinely attracted if its not mutual, those feelings should die down but if the friendship is real that will remain. An honest person would just realize you just don't meet each others wants in certain ways. Its an enlightening moment, should become more aware of yourself and even strengthen and refine as far as your individuality and others even if there is initial disappointment after these experiences are processed correctly and get you closer to attracting what is more compatible. Rejection can be a blessing in disguise and growth potential and can even help you understand yourself better by understanding differences. Sometimes its a lack of awareness, low self esteem or not knowing what fits them so they mistakenly take rejection as proof of unworthiness. Even if one was rejected brutally or with false or negative projections. You don't have to internalize it. One can soul search and assess what one wants to change or not. It may be a painful inner journey to learn but if its processed right its positive. If one is rejected for a quality that is hated only you can determine if it should be changed. If its just unique to you and not hurting others, value the gem that you are because the one who wants you may love what another couldn't or wouldn't appreciate. Sometimes codependent people base their value on others acceptance or even subjective opinion and that is doomed to failure and pain. One must develop their own identity and by relationships we learn more about ourselves through similarity and differences including evolutionary growth but you have to value yourself first and keep it a work in progress. Everyone deserves respect and love, just have to understand the circle does not fit in the square. There are myriads of different people out there, just have to understand there are people for you as well as those who rejected you. In these moments of pain and rejection we don't realize no one should determine our self worth.

If someone is continually attracted ( i dont mean people who are confused, lost etc) when you are not as in they do not care if you feel violated or uncomfortable about advances it is an indication that they see you more as an object. Because its about what they want from you when real relationships are about mutual feelings. This hidden dynamic isnt usually explained this way but it is the blunt truth. These male friends of mine do not want any sexually viable female just as women don't want any available male, even based on looks. Um, their balanced. Its the type of male that views women whether consciously or not through a misogynistic, objectified and only sexual lens that don't take women seriously for friendship. They are of the domination mindset, women are objects to be manipulated for their wants only. It is just whats in it for me for this type though they will give opposite lip service. After you learn them, easy to detect this type.

Thanks for the intelligent response this shows a lot of maturity and wisdom on your part.

 

[birch]

Sorry, I'm just not buying it. They might not want a relationship with you, but ten bucks says they'd bang it out with you.

I don't think you're understanding my point. There is a difference between an active attraction with a pretense of platonic friendship vs a real friendship that is not dependent on or hinges or primarily on physical attraction or in the hopes of getting lucky. Uh, because that is not why we're friends. Uh no, they are not into me like that. As a matter of fact, i can bet a dollar to a donut they wouldnt be that interested. I've known them long enough to know this.

There is a difference between a man wanting you in that way vs just accepting sex for the hell of it if its offered. Besides, i know some that would not at all, considering what they do find attractive. Lol

 

[Secular Sanity]

I don't think you're understanding my point.

No, I understand what you're saying, but most women thought that they could be just friends. I, on the other hand, agree with Adam Sheck. Not the part were he says that only homely people can be friends, though.

How many male friends did you say that you have? Doughnut, eh? Care to test the system? Lol

There are certain dynamics between friends and when one has feelings for the other, that dynamic changes. Looking back now, with a clearer head, there were a lot of things that I missed. Hence why I find this subject interesting and frankly, if my other male friends, some of whom I have been friends with since high school, felt the same way, I can safely say I would distance myself from that friendship. Because it can be detrimental and frankly, it comes down to an issue of trust. I trust my friends to do right by themselves and by me as their friend. When that dynamic changes, then yes, for me at least, it becomes a trust issue. I would question myself about whether they are saying things to me to benefit them, as one example.

Good point! Did you discuss problems about your relationship with your ex-husband with this friend that you hooked up with, like in this video?

 

[tali89]

Do you feel this way? Do you think that men make better friends than women do? Do they treat their friends better than women do? Are women high maintenance and too petty? Are men more tolerant?

From my own personal experience, I'd say that men make better friends than women do. I've found my male friends to be far more generous with their attention, time and money. Whenever I've been in a bind and needed some assistance (eg. ride to work, move house, fix my PC), it's always been my male friends who help. In most cases I didn't even have to ask, they just offered. Now perhaps they had some ulterior motive, I'm not a mind reader, but I've noticed that men also go out of their way to help their male friends. So obviously sex can't be the only motivating factor.

I also think men are generally less demanding and judgmental, and aren't as petty and gossipy as women.

The bottom line is that women see friendship as a means to "express themselves and form their identity," while men look at relationships in a self-seeking way, as in "what's in it for me," he said. [Source]

The author just contradicted themselves. If you enter a relationship in order to express yourself and form an identity, then you're doing so out of self-interest. From my own observations, women tend to see friendships with men as a chance to use a man's wealth and abilities. Indeed, I remember one of the earlier studies you posted suggesting that women tend to form friendship with men in order to obtain security. Since First World nations don't have roving packs of murderers and rapists like those seen in Mad Max: Road Fury, we are left wondering exactly what sort of security women want from men...

 

[birch]

No, I understand what you're saying, but most women thought that they could be just friends. I, on the other hand, agree with Adam Sheck. Not the part were he says that only homely people can be friends, though.

How many male friends did you say that you have? Doughnut, eh? Care to test the system? Lol

It seems there is a smug sarcasm that you're so sure, jaded and pretty narrow in understanding males or people evidenced even from the op.

Let me spell it out.
Just because a male will fuk you, to put it plainly, doesn't mean he wants you or even particularly attracted either. If you know anything about males its nothing to be flattered by as some males will fuk anything (as long as there is no effort on their part if they arent interested)with a pulse rather than jacking off, if there is no one else etc. In that sense its nothing to them. This basically 'nothingness' is hardly a threat to a platonic relationship or a threat to any female from unwanted advances. Stay with me now, all this above has nothing to do with the subject of attraction.

You seem to think that just because a male may have sex with you, it means something as in maybe they can't be friends because they might. It could be like someone offering a stick of gum, may not turn it down.

The point of this discussion has been about active, intentful, motive driven attraction and platonic but true friendship.

There are males who can have true platonic friendships with women but again its the type of male as with anything in life.

You seem to equate superficial male acquaintances with friendships. My male friends are there for me and vice versa just like any friend regardless of gender. Ya know, when you meet someone and find out you think alike or like each others sense of humor whether goofy etc and not all chemistry between two people will be physical/sexual/romantic. You can just get along well or certain friends you can talk to about certain subjects and they understand you. Attraction of various sorts is really easy to read and feel. If you assume every male wants to sleep with you, that's you. The key word here is 'want' like desire that supersedes anything else about you. While you are talking, if all they are doing is pretending to agree just because they want to get in your pants, thats no friend but this is very easy to spot. Its easy because you'll soon find out usually within a couple conversations whether this person gets you or you get them from multiple signs and signals overt to subtle. I met most of my male friends based on hobbies at first anywhere from video games, cards, etc. Men are like women in they have preferences too besides just the male dog or female slut.

But again, people have different experiences and pick different people as friends. Um, I would laugh in their face if my male friends propositioned me in any way and they know that. Its like brother and sister. Are you getting it? Its because we have that mutual understanding, you can FEEL it. You can sense and feel the type of chemistry you have with someone whether its platonic or not. But here is a clue: if you can't and you aren't sure, most likely there may be something not totally aboveboard. Friends don't front. It may be you as well who is incapable of this type of friendship if you view all males as just fakers wanting you sexually. The effect would be to consciously or unconsciously put that out there and that's what you will magnetize on that wavelength.

 

[birch]

From my own personal experience, I'd say that men make better friends than women do. I've found my male friends to be far more generous with their attention, time and money. Whenever I've been in a bind and needed some assistance (eg. ride to work, move house, fix my PC), it's always been my male friends who help. In most cases I didn't even have to ask, they just offered. Now perhaps they had some ulterior motive, I'm not a mind reader, but I've noticed that men also go out of their way to help their male friends. So obviously sex can't be the only motivating factor.

I also think men are generally less demanding and judgmental, and aren't as petty and gossipy as women.



The author just contradicted themselves. If you enter a relationship in order to express yourself and form an identity, then you're doing so out of self-interest. From my own observations, women tend to see friendships with men as a chance to use a man's wealth and abilities. Indeed, I remember one of the earlier studies you posted suggesting that women tend to form friendship with men in order to obtain security. Since First World nations don't have roving packs of murderers and rapists like those seen in Mad Max: Road Fury, we are left wondering exactly what sort of security women want from men...

This all really has to do with the types of relationships and the types of males and females. There are women and men who are only out for themselves as well as those who want friendships. True ones, mutual ones based on just liking and caring about the other.

Two-faced gossipy people come in both genders. But these types have their kind too. If someone is stabbing you in the back they are not your friend. There are nice girls out there too. Besides the superficial interests, what makes a friendship is similar moral values. This means if you are a moral person and feel its wrong to be two-faced or use people and the other is the opposite, a true friendship can't endure. Just as well, those users have people they may not use and have their own code of ethics with people just like them. Its identification. When you're young and if you are one of those types who believe in sincerity and fairness, you assume others will treat you as you would and find out that's not the case because there are all types of people out there who will hurt, use or just be toxic to you. But the beauty is there are people with the same values as well as similar interests, personality etc. That's why you pick your friends and you pick them first through trial and error. Later, you get better at it as you discern, read as well as become more self aware of your own values, wants and needs. These can also change over time too just as you can outgrow some relationships or people head in different directions.

 

[BrianHarwarespecialist]

It seems there is a smug sarcasm that you're so sure, jaded and pretty narrow in understanding males or people evidenced even from the op.

Let me spell it out.
Just because a male will fuk you, to put it plainly, doesn't mean he wants you or even particularly attracted either. If you know anything about males its nothing to be flattered by as some males will fuk anything (as long as there is no effort on their part if they arent interested)with a pulse rather than jacking off, if there is no one else etc. In that sense its nothing to them. This basically 'nothingness' is hardly a threat to a platonic relationship or a threat to any female from unwanted advances. Stay with me now, all this above has nothing to do with the subject of attraction.

You seem to think that just because a male may have sex with you, it means something as in maybe they can't be friends because they might. It could be like someone offering a stick of gum, may not turn it down.

The point of this discussion has been about active, intentful, motive driven attraction and platonic but true friendship.

There are males who can have true platonic friendships with women but again its the type of male as with anything in life.

You seem to equate superficial male acquaintances with friendships. My male friends are there for me and vice versa just like any friend regardless of gender. Ya know, when you meet someone and find out you think alike or like each others sense of humor whether goofy etc and not all chemistry between two people will be physical/sexual/romantic. You can just get along well or certain friends you can talk to about certain subjects and they understand you. Attraction of various sorts is really easy to read and feel. If you assume every male wants to sleep with you, that's you. The key word here is 'want' like desire that supersedes anything else about you. While you are talking, if all they are doing is pretending to agree just because they want to get in your pants, thats no friend but this is very easy to spot. Its easy because you'll soon find out usually within a couple conversations whether this person gets you or you get them from multiple signs and signals overt to subtle. I met most of my male friends based on hobbies at first anywhere from video games, cards, etc. Men are like women in they have preferences too besides just the male dog or female slut.

But again, people have different experiences and pick different people as friends. Um, I would laugh in their face if my male friends propositioned me in any way and they know that. Its like brother and sister. Are you getting it? Its because we have that mutual understanding, you can FEEL it. You can sense and feel the type of chemistry you have with someone whether its platonic or not. But here is a clue: if you can't and you aren't sure, most likely there may be something not totally aboveboard. Friends don't front. It may be you as well who is incapable of this type of friendship if you view all males as just fakers wanting you sexually. The effect would be to consciously or unconsciously put that out there and that's what you will magnetize on that wavelength.

Am jealous, I now need to shut the hell up, it's seems to me that you have a gift at understanding these things that superseded my own understanding. But before I shut up completely I will just say a few things...