Why is it deemed wrong to "bash religion"?

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If it isn't rational then why is the religion thread not in the "parapsychology" sub-forum, or some other place where rationality need not rear its head.
The idea of religion, I thought, was that the proponents of it thought it entirely rational.
And that it is the rationality of the people that differs between the religious and non-religious.
So I don't accept that religion is not rational.
Proponents might not adhere to what I consider to be rational or not, but they surely have their own sense of what is rational??

As for "bashing someone's religion" - of course they would take it personally - if it is indeed "bashing" - but I'm trying to understand when criticism becomes bashing.
If it is a matter that all criticism of one's religion is deemed bashing purely because religion is a personal matter, then why does religion deserve such an exalted place?

Look up the words faith and belief. Then show me where you see the word rational in those definitions. Faith and belief fill in the gaps in rational thought – where rational thought ends. You can believe whatever you want to believe. I think you have made my point for me in your refusal to believe or accept that religion is not rational.

The followers of Jim Jones who committed mass suicide thought they were rational too. The Heavens Gate and several other religions cults which practiced mass suicide, they thought they were rational too. As I said before you can believe what you want to believe. But there is only one version of reality. How many snake handlers (religious sect) have died handling snakes? They too believed that God would protect them. It’s kind of ironic that most of the founders of this movement succumbed to snake bites. Reality bit them.
 
Look up the words faith and belief. Then show me where you see the word rational in those definitions. Faith and belief fill in the gaps in rational thought – where rational thought ends. You can believe whatever you want to believe. I think you have made my point for me in your refusal to believe or accept that religion is not rational.

The followers of Jim Jones who committed mass suicide thought they were rational too. The Heavens Gate and several other religions cults which practiced mass suicide, they thought they were rational too. As I said before you can believe what you want to believe. But there is only one version of reality. How many snake handlers (religious sect) have died handling snakes? They too believed that God would protect them. It’s kind of ironic that most of the founders of this movement succumbed to snake bites. Reality bit them.
So you clearly missed where I said that the proponents of a religion think themselves to be rational, and thus your second paragraph merely confirms what I said and in no way counters it.

Rationality is a personal matter in that what one person thinks rational another may not.
But the key is that the person themself considers their position rational.
That I do not find their position to be rational does not stop them from stating the whys and wherefores of what they deem rational.
That is my point, which you seem to have missed.
 
@ Baldeee

If religious people are characterized as generally being irrational, then yes, they are being stereotyped. The problem with such expressions is that, whether the poster intends them to or not, they do apply to specific posters here (who are religious). You are warranted in arguing specific claims made, but not in characterizing whole groups of people.

And atheism is defined as either rejection of belief in a deity or "believing God to not exist". Definitions are not inherently stereotyping, and if you argue the latter (that God does not exist), you have provided evidence that it is not, in your case, a stereotype. Just like it is not a stereotype to assume a Young-Earth Creationist disagrees with carbon dating.

Subjective beliefs often have no "detail" to provide other than perhaps anecdotal experience (which is typically rejected out of hand by atheists). The reticence of the religious, especially on a science forum where atheism is overrepresented, to subject themselves to ridicule should be fairly easy to understand. If you really want to learn more about others, you need to have an environment conducive to sharing.

But this is the issue: religion does not allow itself to be criticised the way a philosophical view is.
Everyone knows that a philosophical is rarely supported by science as being the one and only truth on the matter (at best the philosophical view is built around to fill in the gaps of science - either where science does not yet have the answer of where it is not equipped to go), and arguments abound openly, freely and, usually, respectfully.
But with religion it is different: any argument against a religion is too often seen as "bashing".

Religion is regularly criticized as "god of the gaps" and routinely scoffed when someone says it is beyond the applicable domain of science. So the arguments against religion do not even abide by the criteria of those against philosophy. It is widely accepted that other fields are not appropriate when dealing with philosophy, yet atheists regularly demand that religion is subject to higher criteria than even philosophy.

If religion was seen as just another philosophy there would be no issue.

Certainly, as atheists would not demand that other fields of study are appropriate.

I disagree in as much as the religious too often claim support from scripture that, to them, puts it beyond argument, without stating why it should be treated as such.
If every religionist argument started "I take this on blind faith but..." then there would be no issue.
But they don't.
They claim evidence.
They claim support that is somehow more than just an appeal to authority.
And you call them out on it.
Would you, as moderator on this forum, deem this as "bashing"?
Or are you happy to send any thread that claims their religious view as truth straight to the "free thoughts", "psuedo-science", "parapsychology" or similar, or even straight to the "cess pool"?

And? Subjective belief does not avail itself to the objective evidence that may convince anyone else. "Truth" can be subjective and it is usually fairly obvious when truth claims are subjective, rather than objective. Just because atheists may try to apply an objective criteria does not make it necessarily applicable.

If the world-view is sound, it should be able to withstand the criticism (and I don't just mean to remain silent but to have a response).

If a worldview is sound by whose judgement? Does a worldview necessarily have to be objectively sound? If so, any such criticism is often speaking right past the worldview they wish to examine.
 
- good, you agree

- yes they do. Genesis is wrong, the planet wasn't made that way, man wasn't created that way, the flood story is rubbish, Methy wasn't 969 years old, Noah wasn't 600 years old. All garbage.

- so why they react just like you do, changing the subject to a worldview or throwing out insults? If they just smiled and said, my faith is so strong I can talk about it objectively, then I might believe you. hat's the whole point of the OP.

It's not my job to disprove religious beliefs. I've got useful things to do with my life. It's up to the religious to prove that what they say is true. They absolutely make claims of objective evidence - see above.

Now how about you try to answer the OP instead of telling me about myself? Or are you going to ban me instead? They tried that with Galileo, remember?

No, Genesis may be more metaphor than fact.

How is addressing the incompatible worldview "changing the subject"?

Hey, if you find a theist who makes those claims, feel free to challenge them, but unless they make an objective claim, they are not obliged to prove anything.
 
It's a good question, and I personally don't see any reason to treat religion from any other philosophical position one might hold: what is deemed "bashing" in any other philosophical debate should be deemed "bashing" in a religious discussion, and what is not deemed bashing elsewhere should not be considered "bashing" in the religious arena. To think otherwise is to hold religion to a different standard.

Maybe religion deserves that different and higher standard, but if so then I, too, would like to understand why.

If you want religion treated as philosophy then that would include not demanding it prove its conjectures within any other field of study, right?
 
If you want religion treated as philosophy then that would include not demanding it prove its conjectures within any other field of study, right?
It's not so much about proving conjectures as it is about a lack of tolerance for questioning those conjectures. Since, after all they are formed with "incomplete information".

Read that as "no" information other than superstition.
 
Why is it deemed wrong to "bash religion"?

If you're asking Syne what his policy is, I'll let him answer that.

But if you're just throwing the question out there for general discussion, I'll say that my objection to "bashing religion" is essentially the same as my objection to "bashing atheism". What bothers me isn't the target, but rather the fact that it's bashing.

It's sad but true that many atheist posts treat "religion" (by that, Western atheists typically mean Christianity specifically) as a caricature, and their posts are little more than rants. In my opinion this kind of stuff is often emotionally immature, historically uninformed and philosophically crude. Sorry if my saying that offends anyone, but it's true.

The same thing can equally be said about anti-atheist rants, 'witnessing' and preaching-posts.

Having said that, I do enjoy posts that are well-written and well-reasoned, whether it's "religionists" or atheists writing them. I have no objection at all to posts that criticize "religion" or atheism. Of course if a post criticizes a view that I happen to favor, I'm likely to make a counter-post arguing against it. That doesn't mean I'm angry or pissed-off or anything. I find the intellectual exercise enjoyable and I respect people who argue well, even if I disagree with them.

Why are religious views deemed above any other views that people hold?

I don't necessarily think that, but many religious people do.

Almost by definition, religious ideas encompass and embody the religious person's highest values and fondest hopes. So many (not all) religious people can be emotionally touchy and may react in an exaggerated manner if they sense that these things are being challenged.

Why are they not subject to the same questioning and rigour that one might apply to, say, belief in the "flat earth", or UFOs, or cold fusion, or any scientific theory.

I don't have any objection to that. In fact I welcome it and will probably agree with the sceptics most of the time. I'd just like to see both sides arguing well and treating the subject with the seriousness that it deserves.
 
So you clearly missed where I said that the proponents of a religion think themselves to be rational, and thus your second paragraph merely confirms what I said and in no way counters it.

Oh no, I got it. I suggest you go back and reread my previous post. Most people holding irrational beliefs believe they are quite rational. But that belief doesn’t make their irrational belief rational or their perceptions true. Reality makes them true.

Rationality is a personal matter in that what one person thinks rational another may not.

No it isn’t. Rationality is pretty straight forward. It doesn’t require faith or belief. It is what it is. People on the other hand are at times rational and at times irrational. Just because a person holds irrational beliefs, it doesn’t mean they are a nonfunctional being. I think everyone has had irrational beliefs and fears. My ex-wife had an irrational fear of spiders. It didn’t make her dysfunctional in any significant way. Just because a person holds irrational beliefs, it doesn’t also mean they are dysfunctional individuals. We are after all emotional beings. And from time to time, we are all irrational. And most of the time humans function with a combination of irrational beliefs and rational thoughts. Some of us are better at being able to identify irrational human behaviors and profit from them (e.g. Warren Buffet).

But the key is that the person themself considers their position rational.

No that is silly. I could consider myself to be President Obama and believe it perfectly rational. But it wouldn’t make it so. I take it you have not been around mentally ill folks. Individuals can perceive and believe many things, but it doesn't make them true.

That I do not find their position to be rational does not stop them from stating the whys and wherefores of what they deem rational.
That is my point, which you seem to have missed.

Oh I got your point, I don’t think you got mine.
 
Yes you are. This is the difference between "bash" and "criticize".
I think you're splitting hairs over a losing proposition. A person is either a dolt and knothead or they are reasonable and sane. Similarly the ideologies that embrace knuckleheaded ideation don't need to be sheltered.

The issue isn't religion, it's bashing.
The issue is "what's wrong with religion". And that specifically refers to the modern fundamentalist/evangelical/creationist who is expressing pathological markers on a very large scale, very overtly. You would first have to acknowledge that this is actually happening. Without that, then this is just a thread about denial.

Civilized cultures criticize, not bash.
The gloves came off when the fundies invaded the academic and scientific arenas. Now we fight fire with fire.


But modern culture is the most despicable, intolerant culture in the world,
Specifically, the religious sects that perpetuate lies and propaganda in order to win the vulnerable minds of their megachurches are a threat to the peace of thoughtful people worldwide. The have usurped the public policy agenda and inserted their idiotic claims and demands where serious matters should be receiving public attention. Further, since the folks I'm referring to express the homophobic/xenophobic attitudes of Victorian Christians, it is they and they alone who are being intolerant. For the same reason we may freely say "the KKK are cowardly morons" without concern for propriety, nothing will stop any thoughtful person for using the same frank language to describe the same religious reasoning once used to openly declare that blacks were animals. Are you with me now? The folks I'm talking about are either practically allied with the Klan, or else we may say they are a new incarnation on an old theme. This is certainly not limited to racism. The idiot who proclaimed that "God wanted those women raped" is the same class of person I'm referring to. They are religious people of a very specific cultural identification, who freely interpret what their God is thinking, whom their God detests, and they shape their thoughts, feelings and behaviors around that very specific world view.

These groups are using religion as a springboard for very real and very harmful kinds of intolerance, nothing like the harmless speech you are referring to. There is a huge difference. If you stand with them, then you're standing on the side of hatred and intolerance. So you need only decide for yourself what you are, as must all the fanatics who are under siege by education and common sense. This is pretty simple; it's like distinguishing black from white. You're either one of the good guys or you're not (you/they: the indefinite plural).

so it is only capable of bashing, not logically criticizing. In contrast, the Old Testament only criticizes, never bashes.
Get off the gas. The Old Testament reams every nation that ever opposed the proto-Jewish people, it curses them, and revels in fantasies about their destruction. It's incredibly xenophobic and sadistic in that regard. This is why it's so dangerous in the hands of mean, ignorant and esp. violent people.

But why are you promoting the Old Testament? Why leave out the New Testament, the Koran, the Vedas, the Dhammapada, the Mahavira, the Tao Te Ching, Confucian texts . . .? Do you really think one religion is superior to another? That same sense of superiority is what justifies racism, denigration of women, gay-bashing and all other forms of intolerance you're expressing concern about.

Conclusion: there is no sacred cow other than the universally sacred one, which is that truth -- not Biblical truth -- is sacred. Virtue -- not Biblical mores about circumcision, dietary restrictions or ancient taboos -- is sacred. Justice -- not Biblical acts of revenge and certainly not people pretending to be God's vigilante squad -- is sacred. Protection of the vulnerable -- not indoctrination, brainwashing and exploitation by propaganda -- are sacred. Pretty much the rest of it has to pay. We speak freely against every kind of intrusion into the natural harmony of a well ordered mind regardless of whether or not it operates under the banner of a protected religion -- regardless of whether or not it pretends to hold the divine right of immunity from prosecution.

How else does a sane rational person deal with meanness, stupidity and deliberate harm? You see, there really is nothing for you (pl.) to be defending, is there? We're not as stupid about you as our mild speech suggests. We know all the cons because you (indefinite you: they) people have been pulling the same pranks all of our lives. We're just holding you in check, that's all.
 
Mod note

The issue is "what's wrong with religion". And that specifically refers to the modern fundamentalist/evangelical/creationist who is expressing pathological markers on a very large scale, very overtly.

Fair warning. Refrain from making blanket statements about groups of people. Not all fundamentalists, nor evangelicals, nor creationists express anything socially untoward.
 
Religion is fucking stupid, and most believers are idiots. At least about their belief. They deserve all the bashing they get. There is nothing intellectually redeemable about faith. They love to hide irrationality behind a cloak of obscurity like Yazata did, saying critics just don't know the history or philosophical subtlety of religions. I think that's nonsense. Faith is a sexually transmitted disease. Victims should be treated with some level of compassion, but the religion itself is fair game.
 
Specifically, the religious sects that perpetuate lies and propaganda in order to win the vulnerable minds of their megachurches are a threat to the peace of thoughtful people worldwide.

What qualifies as "thoughtful"? An atheist who has no ideals in mind and no love at heart? A killer who has no concept of fellowship, humanity and brotherhood? I really hope you do not dismiss my questions as irrational due to taking the perspective of religious indoctrination.
 
Oh no, I got it. I suggest you go back and reread my previous post. Most people holding irrational beliefs believe they are quite rational. But that belief doesn’t make their irrational belief rational or their perceptions true. Reality makes them true.
I never said it does make them true.
There is a clear difference between what is rational and what is true: the former being our process (hopefully) of arriving at a subjective truth based on incomplete information.
No it isn’t. Rationality is pretty straight forward. It doesn’t require faith or belief. It is what it is.
But people will often hold different things to be true while both being rational.
Imagine you are thirsty and you see a pool of water.
One person goes to drink: his thinking being that the water will quench his thirst - rational, one would think.
The other does not: his thinking being that he knows the water is actually too acidic, having tried drinking from it before.
Different views.
Both being rational.
Their difference is due to working from different information / experiences.
People on the other hand are at times rational and at times irrational. Just because a person holds irrational beliefs, it doesn’t mean they are a nonfunctional being. I think everyone has had irrational beliefs and fears. My ex-wife had an irrational fear of spiders. It didn’t make her dysfunctional in any significant way. Just because a person holds irrational beliefs, it doesn’t also mean they are dysfunctional individuals. We are after all emotional beings. And from time to time, we are all irrational. And most of the time humans function with a combination of irrational beliefs and rational thoughts. Some of us are better at being able to identify irrational human behaviors and profit from them (e.g. Warren Buffet).
I'm not sure what your point is here: I haven't mentioned dysfunctionality.
No that is silly. I could consider myself to be President Obama and believe it perfectly rational. But it wouldn’t make it so. I take it you have not been around mentally ill folks. Individuals can perceive and believe many things, but it doesn't make them true.
You are assuming I am arguing from a position of "rationality = truth".
I don't.
Oh I got your point, I don’t think you got mine.
Care to restate it, then?
 
If religious people are characterized as generally being irrational, then yes, they are being stereotyped. The problem with such expressions is that, whether the poster intends them to or not, they do apply to specific posters here (who are religious). You are warranted in arguing specific claims made, but not in characterizing whole groups of people.
Agreed. But this goes both ways.
And atheism is defined as either rejection of belief in a deity or "believing God to not exist". Definitions are not inherently stereotyping, and if you argue the latter (that God does not exist), you have provided evidence that it is not, in your case, a stereotype. Just like it is not a stereotype to assume a Young-Earth Creationist disagrees with carbon dating.
If someone considers themself an atheist due to the "rejection of belief", and another continually argues against him on the basis of atheism being "believing gods to not exist" then is this to be considered bashing?
Subjective beliefs often have no "detail" to provide other than perhaps anecdotal experience (which is typically rejected out of hand by atheists). The reticence of the religious, especially on a science forum where atheism is overrepresented, to subject themselves to ridicule should be fairly easy to understand. If you really want to learn more about others, you need to have an environment conducive to sharing.
Agreed.
And I don't want to get into a discussion about what each side might or might not argue.
But to understand what is considered "bashing".
And when is it merely arguing a point.
Religion is regularly criticized as "god of the gaps" and routinely scoffed when someone says it is beyond the applicable domain of science. So the arguments against religion do not even abide by the criteria of those against philosophy. It is widely accepted that other fields are not appropriate when dealing with philosophy, yet atheists regularly demand that religion is subject to higher criteria than even philosophy.
I don't think they do all that often, other than when religion tries to assert an authority position.
Everyone sees determinism, emergentism, reductionism, duality, etc as on a similar level of authority.
But religion is placed on a pedestal above these, somehow deserving more respect.
Criticise an aspect of reductionism and you can get into a discussion.
Criticise an aspect of religion and you have to tread on egg-shells without breaking any.
Certainly, as atheists would not demand that other fields of study are appropriate.
Yes they would.
Philosophies should adhere and stack up to all fields of study.
Otherwise they can be dismissed out of hand (e.g. a philosophy that doesn't accept that gravity works).
The philosophy is the gap between what we know and how we think things (ought to) work.
There would be no issue as the religionist would not expect to make unsupported claims without it being called into question, or at least be aware that their philosophy could be incorrect.
Maybe it is this sense of it being the absolute truth that is the main issue, an inability to accept that they might be wrong yet unable to show how they are not.
And? Subjective belief does not avail itself to the objective evidence that may convince anyone else. "Truth" can be subjective and it is usually fairly obvious when truth claims are subjective, rather than objective. Just because atheists may try to apply an objective criteria does not make it necessarily applicable.
Then you are automatically putting it outside the rest of philosophy as untouchable.
If a worldview is sound by whose judgement? Does a worldview necessarily have to be objectively sound? If so, any such criticism is often speaking right past the worldview they wish to examine.
I perhaps meant valid rather than sound.
The criticism would not be speaking right past the worldview they wish to examine if the initial assumptions on which the logic is applied are understood and accepted (for purposes of discussion) up front.
In this regard the "truth" or otherwise of the premises is up to the individual.
Thus non-believers might at least find the argument valid, if not sound.
 
Fair warning. Refrain from making blanket statements about groups of people. Not all fundamentalists, nor evangelicals, nor creationists express anything socially untoward.
Don't you have anything better to do Syne?

I don't believe Aqueous was making "blanket statements" about "groups of people" unless said group of people happens to be composed of evangelical creationist fundamentalists. That group absolutely deserves the tar brush of "what's wrong with religion".

You can't possibly be saying that these groups don't exist, can you? Oh, wait, that's right, you identify with the group, so what you're really saying is "don't slander my group", right?

The sane world tolerates (barely) the boil on our buttocks that fundamental religionists represent. Your camp will only be happy when insanity prevails and rationality is discarded in favor of "faith". Go back to shutting down discord in your own forum so that you and your lackeys may prosper and prevail in that habitat. (you know, the one where intolerance and suppression of free speech is encouraged)

Leave the rest of us alone to actually think.

Hellfire and damnation!
 
What you believe can not make you a moral or immoral person, what you do, or advocate doing does. If what you advocate doing is based on belief and not knowledge it is only accidentally that what you advocate is actually moral or even sane(def. dealing with reality). Much of what religionists believe and advocate is insane, when juxtaposed with reality. Now I don't much care if a person insists on being insane in his beliefs, but I object vigorously with the idea that such people should be in charge or in authority over others, at least those others who choose not to participate in that particular insanity. And inculcating that insanity into the law of the land is it's own form of insanity, the kind that our Constitution sought to make illegal in the very First Amendment.

That said, Freedom means having the right to be wrong. One of my lifelong best friends is adamant that there are actual spacecraft from other worlds whizzing about all the time. It colors his ability to think about certain topics. What he believes is generally harmless, but if he were somehow in charge of "protecting" Earth he would spend us into poverty defending us from non-existent(or at least non-evidenced)and so-far non-violent flying saucers. Such spending would be an immoral waste given the other real problems it could be applied to. His BELIEF would lead him to act immorally while thinking he was being moral. Knowledge of reality would tell him that, but in this area he has chosen to value his belief instead of the reality. I do not bash his belief, but I refuse to allow his belief to overrule our collective sanity, in part because doing so would itself be insanity.

Substituting a set of religious beliefs for "alien spacecraft" brings it back to the subject of the OP. No, bashing other people's religious beliefs is not right, but letting religious beliefs of one group rule over the whole country is also not right. As long as the unsane do not insist on spreading their insanity to all others we should respect their right to believe anything they like. But as Aqueous Id so eloquently put it...

Specifically, the religious sects that perpetuate lies and propaganda in order to win the vulnerable minds of their megachurches are a threat to the peace of thoughtful people worldwide. The have usurped the public policy agenda and inserted their idiotic claims and demands where serious matters should be receiving public attention. Further, since the folks I'm referring to express the homophobic/xenophobic attitudes of Victorian Christians, it is they and they alone who are being intolerant. For the same reason we may freely say "the KKK are cowardly morons" without concern for propriety, nothing will stop any thoughtful person for using the same frank language to describe the same religious reasoning once used to openly declare that blacks were animals. Are you with me now? The folks I'm talking about are either practically allied with the Klan, or else we may say they are a new incarnation on an old theme. This is certainly not limited to racism. The idiot who proclaimed that "God wanted those women raped" is the same class of person I'm referring to. They are religious people of a very specific cultural identification, who freely interpret what their God is thinking, whom their God detests, and they shape their thoughts, feelings and behaviors around that very specific world view.

These groups are using religion as a springboard for very real and very harmful kinds of intolerance, nothing like the harmless speech you are referring to. There is a huge difference. If you stand with them, then you're standing on the side of hatred and intolerance. So you need only decide for yourself what you are, as must all the fanatics who are under siege by education and common sense. This is pretty simple; it's like distinguishing black from white. You're either one of the good guys or you're not (you/they: the indefinite plural).

Those people deserve all the bashing and scorn we can possibly give them. In fact, such behavior should even be resisted by force of arms, if necessary, exactly like the American Revolution had it's genesis in people fleeing just such insanity to form a country free from the Tyranny of Stupidity and Corruption that the Church of England was at that time. You can believe anything you like, but you do not have a right to expect others to accept those beliefs or to put your prejudices and precepts into law, imposing your will on all others. Thus gay marriage(as an example)is not repression of your rights, it is a suppression of other's rights when you oppose it. And that is immoral(according to the principles of our Constitution).

I actually admire the new Pope, he "gets" Jesus's message(not his beliefs, but what he advocated)and is, IMHO a moral man. He may save the church from the idiocy and corruption that had become it's distinguishing characteristics, his beliefs, while not based in reality, at least leads to behavior and advocacy that is less insane that what came before. So I would not bash his belief as long as it does not lead to error and immorality in what he advocates. I can respect the morality of his BEHAVIOR while rejecting the legitimacy of the BELIEFS that lead him there. And the "bashing" that religion receives is legitimate if it is religious BEHAVIOR that is it's target. The right of religious freedom does not mean a right to act like a douche without criticism.

Grumpy:cool:
 
Specifically, the religious sects that perpetuate lies and propaganda in order to win the vulnerable minds of their megachurches are a threat to the peace of thoughtful people worldwide. The have usurped the public policy agenda and inserted their idiotic claims and demands where serious matters should be receiving public attention. Further, since the folks I'm referring to express the homophobic/xenophobic attitudes of Victorian Christians, it is they and they alone who are being intolerant. For the same reason we may freely say "the KKK are cowardly morons" without concern for propriety, nothing will stop any thoughtful person for using the same frank language to describe the same religious reasoning once used to openly declare that blacks were animals. Are you with me now? The folks I'm talking about are either practically allied with the Klan, or else we may say they are a new incarnation on an old theme. This is certainly not limited to racism. The idiot who proclaimed that "God wanted those women raped" is the same class of person I'm referring to. They are religious people of a very specific cultural identification, who freely interpret what their God is thinking, whom their God detests, and they shape their thoughts, feelings and behaviors around that very specific world view.

These groups are using religion as a springboard for very real and very harmful kinds of intolerance, nothing like the harmless speech you are referring to. There is a huge difference. If you stand with them, then you're standing on the side of hatred and intolerance. So you need only decide for yourself what you are, as must all the fanatics who are under siege by education and common sense. This is pretty simple; it's like distinguishing black from white. You're either one of the good guys or you're not (you/they: the indefinite plural).

Well said. Brilliant post by the way!

I think one of the biggest concerns that we face is the rise of right wing evangelicals. The minority of extremists who demand that science is not taught in schools, that homosexuality becomes illegal, that contraception and abortion be banned, etc.. They do pose a risk to society as a whole. And unfortunately, this group of people have the clout to affect the politics of the US, and the effect of that is that it ends up affecting the population as a whole. Because, as you noted, if you don't agree with them, then you are the enemy.
 
leopold

yeah, well think about this:
science has yet to prove that life as we know it comes from non life.

You are simply having a problem thinking, you think that because we call things by different names(life, non-life)means they are two different and unrelated things. The same carbon atoms that make up the minerals of the Earth becomes incorporated in the life that consumes it even if the carbon never was part of a living thing before consumption. The carbon atom that is in a mineral is indistinguishable from one in a cell of your body, no difference whatsoever. Life is a slow chemical fire that has been burning for 3.5 billion years here on Earth. Matter follows exactly the same physical rules, no matter where it is. Life is just a more complex form of matter, not a different kind of matter. So, yes, life comes from non-life and vice verse. Don't confuse lack of specific knowledge of specific events in the past(exactly how the first life came to be)with ignorance of the overall truth of that.

Grumpy:cool:
 
Yes you are. This is the difference between "bash" and "criticize". The issue isn't religion, it's bashing. Civilized cultures criticize, not bash. But modern culture is the most despicable, intolerant culture in the world, so it is only capable of bashing, not logically criticizing. In contrast, the Old Testament only criticizes, never bashes.

Err, sort of calls for killing gay people here and there...

Let's not make religion and text equivocal.
 
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