Asperger's Syndrome

[Syne]

So sayeth the Master Debater.

I am guessing that this non sequitur is meant as an ad hominem.

 

[Futilitist]

It is true that savants, usually more severe on the autistic spectrum, can do some amazing things.

So, you are saying that savants are special, and can do some amazing things. They are, unfortunately, more severe on the autistic spectrum, i.e. less high functioning. Savants are clearly different than high functioning autistics.

Higher functioning autistics, and people with Asperger's syndrome, can clearly do better than less high functioning savants, at least in the virtual world, as you point out in your next quotation:

The Internet can be a social paradise for high-functioning autistic people and people with Asperger's syndrome. Here, the nonverbal niceties of social interaction that they find so perplexing don't apply. People who might strike others as gauche in person often fit in perfectly well on Internet message boards.

http://www.webmd.com/brain/autism/hi...tioning-autism

You go on to say:

I suppose Futilitist is the exception to that rule, as he does not seem to be handling internet social interactions well either.

So, here you point out that I am the exception to the rule that high functioning Asperger's autistics can handle internet social interactions well. If I am to be the exception to this rule, you are clearly saying that you view me as high functioning. Thanks. But then, in your very next sentence you seem to contradict yourself and say that I am not so high functioning:

Perhaps the not so high-functioning autistic has a general problem with understanding explicit social rules, like those of most forums.

You seem to be a bit confused by your observations. The data is inconclusive. It doesn't fit your mental model of the situation.

Perhaps you were just trying to make a joke. Unfortunately, your attempt at humor fails because it does not fit the form, or the science. But it creates opportunity.

Let's summarize, shall we?

1. Low functioning true savants can do some amazing things. But they are severely handicapped socially.
2. Higher functioning autistics and Aspies often do better socially in internet discussion forums.
3. Higher functioning Futilitist fails at internet discussion forums.
4. Perhaps Futilitist is low functioning.

So, true savants are low functioning. And Futilitist is also low functioning, yet he seems to have some high functioning traits.

Have you even stopped to consider the possibility that Futilitist may be a savant?

How else do you explain the fact that I keep winning the debate with you?

---Futilitist

 

[Futilitist]

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[Futilitist]

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[Futilitist]

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[Futilitist]

Who the hell is that Futilitist guy?

I believe the record shows:
1. The topic Futilitist introduced in the OP was the correct understanding of Asperger individuals.
2. The pseudonymous self-quote was of unsupported factual claim that Asperger individuals are completely incapable of adhering to social norms of behavior and equates them with autistic individuals.
3. Therefore this quote was a claim relating to the correct understanding of Asperger individuals which rested only on authority of individual making the claim.
4. The quote author was not, in fact, an expert psychologist, medical doctor, sociologist or similar who based an opinion objectively on the observation of a large number of Asperger individuals and/or autistic individuals.

But the author of the quote does seem to be an expert on being Autistic. I would contend that his condition makes him more than qualified to make objective observations of "a large number of Asperger individuals and/or autistic individuals", as well as a large number of neurotypicals.

5. The quote author was, in fact, Futilitist himself, who neither here nor where first used in post 103 of "A new theory on the evolution of religion", sources the claim to some other context where was originally said. Google search is unrevealing.

I would submit that it has not, in fact, been established that the quote author was, in fact, Futilitist. Loren Soman, the actual author of the quote in question, has, in fact, been dead since 2010!

Therefore, your subsequent conclusions should be seen to have no merit whatsoever.

Happy?

Confused?

---Futilitist

 

[Futilitist]

Who the hell is that Futilitist guy?

I believe the record shows:
1. The topic Futilitist introduced in the OP was the correct understanding of Asperger individuals.
2. The pseudonymous self-quote was of unsupported factual claim that Asperger individuals are completely incapable of adhering to social norms of behavior and equates them with autistic individuals.
3. Therefore this quote was a claim relating to the correct understanding of Asperger individuals which rested only on authority of individual making the claim.
4. The quote author was not, in fact, an expert psychologist, medical doctor, sociologist or similar who based an opinion objectively on the observation of a large number of Asperger individuals and/or autistic individuals.

But the author of the quote does seem to be an expert on being Autistic. I would contend that his condition makes him more than qualified to make objective observations of "a large number of Asperger individuals and/or autistic individuals", as well as a large number of neurotypicals.

5. The quote author was, in fact, Futilitist himself, who neither here nor where first used in post 103 of "A new theory on the evolution of religion", sources the claim to some other context where was originally said. Google search is unrevealing.

I would submit that it has not, in fact, been established that the quote author was, in fact, Futilitist. Loren Soman, the actual author of the quote in question, has, in fact, been dead since 2010!

Therefore, your subsequent conclusions should be seen to have no merit whatsoever.

Happy?

Confused?

---Futilitist

 

[Trooper]

Darn it…foiled again! Obviously, I am a bad judge of character.

Hang em' high.

 

[Syne]

Let's summarize, shall we?

1. Low functioning true savants can do some amazing things. But they are severely handicapped socially.
2. Higher functioning autistics and Aspies often do better socially in internet discussion forums.
3. Higher functioning Futilitist fails at internet discussion forums.
4. Perhaps Futilitist is low functioning.

So, true savants are low functioning. And Futilitist is also low functioning, yet he seems to have some high functioning traits.

There is no "and (yet)" between 3 & 4. Either you are high-functioning but ill-equipped for even online social constructs, or you are low-functioning. Neither necessitate or imply savant syndrome, as there are many more low-functioning autistics than there are savants. So the odds are against you.

Have you even stopped to consider the possibility that Futilitist may be a savant?

How else do you explain the fact that I keep winning the debate with you?

No to the first, and delusion to the second.

But the author of the quote does seem to be an expert on being Autistic. I would contend that his condition makes him more than qualified to make objective observations of "a large number of Asperger individuals and/or autistic individuals", as well as a large number of neurotypicals.

Actually, those who suffer from the syndrome are the least likely to be objective about it.

 

[rpenner]

What is your connection with Loren Soman?

A fair question since you quote LS without citing an impersonal source like a movie, article or book for the quote which nowhere appears on Google before being posted on this forum by you.

He is Loren Soman.

The only attempt to answer the question.

But the author of the quote does seem to be an expert on being Autistic.

Non sequitur. The author of the quote is Loren Soman, and even if he is autistic his life experiences would not qualify him as an expert on the population of autistics, just as a particular black Canadian influenza patient would neither be not qualified to speak for all black individuals or all Canadians or all influenza patients.

I would contend that his condition makes him more than qualified to make objective observations of "a large number of Asperger individuals and/or autistic individuals", as well as a large number of neurotypicals.

You have yet to make that case.

I would submit that it has not, in fact, been established that the quote author was, in fact, Futilitist. Loren Soman, the actual author of the quote in question, has, in fact, been dead since 2010!

What is your connection with Loren Soman that you alone know this? What documentation is there?
Here is a resume posted in May, 2011: http://www.creativehotlist.com/Individuals/details/173897
And this September 2012 post has the byline "Off the Keyboard of Futilitist Loren Soman": http://www.doomsteaddiner.org/blog/2012/09/02/the-tempest-in-the-oil-drum/

Therefore, your subsequent conclusions should be seen to have no merit whatsoever.

Your unsupported allegations aside, my case is still open, counselor.

Darn it…foiled again! Obviously, I am a bad judge of character.

Perhaps the character being judged is just bad?

 

[Trooper]

Perhaps the character being judged is just bad?

Giving someone the benefit of the doubt, e.g. RC, never seems to pan out, does it?

Unlike golfers, who tend to lie about their handicap, aspies normally have a lying handicap. Usually, they’re pathological truth-tellers. IOW, something is rotten in Denmark.

 

[Syne]

Why would you both try to defend quoting yourself by posting:

He also liked to quote himself and often referred to himself from a third-person perspective. -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Asperger​

And seemingly claiming you did no such thing:

I would submit that it has not, in fact, been established that the quote author was, in fact, Futilitist. Loren Soman, the actual author of the quote in question, has, in fact, been dead since 2010!

Perhaps suffering from DID as well.

 

[Futilitist]

Actually, those who suffer from the syndrome are the least likely to be objective about it.

That is a very neurotypical thing to say. Aspies tend to be objective and truthful, and also highly accurate, at least with respect to observing the behavior of others. As Trooper correctly notes:

Unlike golfers, who tend to lie about their handicap, aspies normally have a lying handicap. Usually, they’re pathological truth-tellers.

Jesus is a mythical example of the quintessential Asperger's autistic. He earnestly claimed that the truth could set one free. His extreme level of truth telling was clearly pathological in his case, since it led directly to his death.

---Futilitist?

 

[Syne]

Actually, those who suffer from the syndrome are the least likely to be objective about it.

That is a very neurotypical thing to say. Aspies tend to be objective and truthful, and also highly accurate, at least with respect to observing the behavior of others.

That does not change the natural, not just neurotypical, tendency of all humans to display bias toward things in which they have a invested interest. Science is objective because it employs a methodology that necessarily includes the confirmation of others, not because any one person is entirely objective.

Seeing as aspie honesty is completely anecdotal, unless someone can provide a study done on the subject, anecdotal evidence is all that is necessary to refute it:

Aspies can tell lies - it's just that lies don't come naturally to us. We tend to be truthful, even when the truth hurts - and we expect** others to be truthful to us. -http://life-with-aspergers.blogspot.com/2009/12/how-brutal-honesty-about-future-affects.html​

The only readily discernible difference between AS and NT honesty is the degree of bluntness, which is to be more expected of the poorly socialized. There is no moral superiority evinced.

 

[Trooper]

Oh, how I hate it when Syne is right. Let me count the times. One...ya, just one.

“The Complete Guide to Asperger's Syndrome” by Anthony Attwood, notes that young children with AS are remarkable honest but eventually understand the value of deception. However, the type of deception can be immature and easily identified. He also says that the adults may not realize that the other person is likely to be more offended by the lie than any apparent misdemeanor.

I would submit that it has not, in fact, been established that the quote author was, in fact, Futilitist. Loren Soman, the actual author of the quote in question, has, in fact, been dead since 2010!

My real name is Loren Soman and I post under the name Futilitist.

http://www.theoilage.com/introductions-futilitist-t7687.html

That is a very neurotypical thing to say. Aspies tend to be objective and truthful, and also highly accurate, at least with respect to observing the behavior of others. As Trooper correctly notes:
---Futilitist?

So, are you lying? Did you quote yourself or not? Is there a real Loren Soman, and if so, is he dead, or not?

 

[Futilitist]

Giving someone the benefit of the doubt, e.g. RC, never seems to pan out, does it?

Unlike golfers, who tend to lie about their handicap, aspies normally have a lying handicap. Usually, they’re pathological truth-tellers. IOW, something is rotten in Denmark.

First I get the benefit of the doubt, and now I get a rush to judgement. Try not to have such a hair trigger. It makes you seem less genuine.

Also, is the RC you are referring to a banned former poster called RealityCheck? I have heard of him. KilljoyKlown once mentioned him in passing to me. Banned former member NeverFly is convinced that I am him, or at least he pretends to be. I hope you don't actually think that as well. If you actually do, I can assure you that you are incorrect. I am having enough problems of my own as Futilitist. I don't need someone else's problems rolled into mine. If you are pretending that you believe this to try and get me banned on false charges, that is a pretty clever trick. I am not accusing you of this, I am just trying to see all the possibilities. Remember, I am the new guy here, and I don't have enough info to go on. On top of that, I am an Aspie, so try not to take offense. Trust is a difficult thing on the internet.

On RealityCheck's profile he only lists two friends:

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KilljoyKlown

Trooper

I really don't know the story behind RealtyCheck, but he seems to be infamous. He was a friend of yours. What did he do?

Oh, how I hate it when Syne is right. Let me count the times. One...ya, just one.

And dude, Syne is never right! So much for my benefit of the doubt.

---Futilitist

 

[Beer w/Straw]

That is a very neurotypical thing to say. Aspies tend to be objective and truthful, and also highly accurate, at least with respect to observing the behavior of others. As Trooper correctly notes:



Jesus is a mythical example of the quintessential Asperger's autistic. He earnestly claimed that the truth could set one free. His extreme level of truth telling was clearly pathological in his case, since it led directly to his death.

---Futilitist?

Perhaps you could answer me.

Is this an asnwer to me without answering to me?

 

[Syne]

Thanks for the reference, Trooper.

Children with Asperger’s syndrome are usually brutally honest and speak their mind.
Their allegiance is to the truth, not people’s feelings. They may have to learn not to tell
the truth all the time. While honesty is a virtue, peers at this stage are starting to tell
white lies so as not to hurt friends’ feelings, or to express solidarity and allegiance to
friendship by not informing an adult of the misbehaviour of a friend. Such behaviour
may appear immoral and illogical for a child with Asperger’s syndrome, who is willing
to informthe teacher ‘who did it’ and that a friend has made a stupid mistake. This is not
a recommended way to make or keep friends. -“The Complete Guide to Asperger's Syndrome” by Anthony Attwood​

This confirms that the honesty of an aspie, compared to a neurotypical, is only a result of their lack of empathy, and that they are the only ones likely to see their behavior as morally superior.

 

[rpenner]

Futilitist's behavior, when combined with his earlier post:

I am a researcher. I am working on a PhD. in social theory. The experiments form the basis of my thesis which is about group dynamics and the scapegoat mechanism. It is a little hard for people to understand all of what is going on just by reading the threads. I am intentionally using subconscious cueing to elicit specific responses to test my theory. Each experiment is custom tailored to fit the particular gestalt of each site. Taboo subjects are raised and pressed past the point where violence would normally result in the real world. But online, these boundaries can be easily crossed without bloodshed, resulting a wealth of observable and repeatable data.

and his ad hominem attacks on the neurotypical:

"The Asperger's autistic has about as much chance of telling a Neurotypical person how to think, as a Neurotypical person has of telling an Asperger's autistic how to act."

---Loren Soman

That is a very neurotypical thing to say.

strongly suggest that he has nothing to contribute to this forum except for trolling and therefore I shall treat him as if he were banned by Moderation.

 

[Syne]

And dude, Syne is never right! So much for my benefit of the doubt.

"Never" is a strong word, and just more evidence that you are operating under a bias. Do you care to refute the reference Trooper provided, and I quoted above?



There is some similarity in your behavior and that of banned member RC, although I would not claim you one and the same. Both seem to make any topic about them or their agenda, whether on-topic or not. Both like to bellyache about how others have supposedly made such topics personal. Both seem incapable of supporting their own arguments, shifting the burden of proof, and other typical hack behavior. Both like to "perform experiments" as an excuse for dishonesty and violations of forum rules.