When I was religious I had religious dreams. I often dreamed about dead loved ones. I even dreamed about Jesus. At one point I even dreamed that he was calling me to be a prophet. Good thing I wasn't crazy or I may have followed in the foot steps of David Koresh. I have even dreamed that I died and went to heaven. Does that mean I died in my sleep? At least you acknowledge that the people sometimes were dreaming but for some reason dreams of heaven or dead relatives is somehow real while dreams of getting laid by the easter bunny are not. A dream is a dream regardless of the content. And a dream by definition is based in the imagination and not reality.
Heaven is real, says neurosurgeon
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When I was religious I had religious dreams. I often dreamed about dead loved ones. I even dreamed about Jesus. At one point I even dreamed that he was calling me to be a prophet. Good thing I wasn't crazy or I may have followed in the foot steps of David Koresh. I have even dreamed that I died and went to heaven. Does that mean I died in my sleep? At least you acknowledge that the people sometimes were dreaming but for some reason dreams of heaven or dead relatives is somehow real while dreams of getting laid by the easter bunny are not. A dream is a dream regardless of the content. And a dream by definition is based in the imagination and not reality.
Sure, a dream is just a dream; a dream is your playground, have fun and play with bunnies (or whatever you do). But when they drain the blood out of your brain/cool you down like a cold cucumber, and then you float above your body, see dead relatives, and talk to angels, it's you're soul dangling between your physical body and the spirit world. At least that's my view.
Treat religion and spirituality like a meadow or a park near your house. If you enjoy taking strolls through the park, then take strolls. If you don't want to take strolls, then do something else. The park is there for your peace of mind and your happiness. Personally, spiritualism works for me. I like knowing there are spirits of good people nearby. Good spirits are expected to respect the privacy of the living.
Why would NDEs differ? We've pushed back the boundaries more and more of what being dead means, but if you're truly dead, you simply aren't coming back. Hence the N in NDE. The major reasons why we don't have more research in this are that, who would volunteer for being put into such trauma, and when such medical procedures are done, they're more concerned with the success of the operation rather than secondary experiments in NDE.
Just like with religion, if it works for you, and you don't shove it down someone's throat, then great. I just happen to require more tangible things to believe such stuff.
Gravage said:
That’s because this, like Stenger said, is nothing more than the classic argument from ignorance.
This is often phrased as "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". A common example is "material properties of the brain cannot presently explicitly explain consciousness so it must be caused by non-materialist processes."
If anyone is interested, here's a few gaps in Penrose's toilings.
According to some of those who experience NDE, they didn't want to come back. Somewhere in the video, I forgot where, the angel got tired of arguing with someone who didn't want to return to earth, so the angel shoved this person and they fell back into their body. "It ain't your time!!!"
Maybe it's better that way. I really don't want engineers/physicists medling with the hereafter; that would give them way way too much power. I'll happily settle for a hereafter that is mysterous.
Clinical death: Clinical death is the medical term for cessation of blood circulation and breathing, the two necessary criteria to sustain life
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_death
brain death: Brain death is the irreversible end of all brain activity (including involuntary activity necessary to sustain life) due to total necrosis of the cerebral neurons following loss of brain oxygenation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_dead
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_death
brain death: Brain death is the irreversible end of all brain activity (including involuntary activity necessary to sustain life) due to total necrosis of the cerebral neurons following loss of brain oxygenation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_dead
Yes, but brain death is still an arguable point. We can look at what we can currently measure and try to make a judgement, but what was called brain dead years ago isn't now, and progress continues. And the key word in the definition is "irreversible". Which was my previous point. Near Death is not Death. And someone who has had brain trauma with some of the brain irreversibly damaged can still be revived with loss of those functions, so they are not considered dead either. So did their souls halfway go somewhere?
Wrong, when the doctor validates what patient said what he was doing while the patient was clinically dead-that's valid, it's obviously not valid for you. My research is not matter of faith it is based on reasearch dig deeper when it comes to NDE/OBE, you'll see there are still some cases that cannot be explained by chemicals in the brain, I already mentioned why, and you ignore it.
What education? Equations? I do know enough about these hypotheses. Equations do not prove that something exist, experiments do. For example, multiverse hypothesis will never be proven/disproven, cyclic universe hypothesis will also never be proven/disproven, we need proofs for those hypotheses.
And you think scientists (not all) do have moral and ethics I don't think so, at least not in some areas of scientific research.
Clinically dead is not brain dead.
And how many documented cases are there actually where the patient was some type of dead classification and actually relayed specific information they could not have imagined or later recreated to fill in what they wanted to believe? Links or sources. Lots of people have clinical deaths, there should be a lot to source from. However, it'll be hard to sort out all the subjective stuff, so I don't expect much.
And how many documented cases are there actually where the patient was some type of dead classification and actually relayed specific information they could not have imagined or later recreated to fill in what they wanted to believe? Links or sources. Lots of people have clinical deaths, there should be a lot to source from. However, it'll be hard to sort out all the subjective stuff, so I don't expect much.
I'm talking about cases when patients who are clinically dead see and describe exactly what was doctor doing, and you keep ignoring that, these are not hallucinations when the doctor confirms it. The explanations for everything else in NDE/OBE can be explained.
Sure it's not brain dead. But again how did patients see what exactly doctors were doing at any given moment? That's is not hallucination.
You describe it as a common place occurrence. Give me an example. Certainly I've read stuff about people having out of body experiences, floating down the hall, seeing and hearing things. But they always lack details, concrete things that would help their case. Some places have put things out of sight in ER rooms to help test this out, I've never seen a case where someone mentioned the picture or letter on the ceiling beam as they floated away.
In the video the lady had the blood removed from her brain. She was cooled down to 15 degrees celcius. During the operation, she said she floated above her body, observed (1) that the nurse was having trouble sticking her; doctor told nurse to use other leg and (2) she observed fine details about the cutting instrument: a wirring noise that sounded like a dentist drill (she stated that she expected a handsaw, not a drill); she described the drill/saw and she described the box that contained all of the various different kinds of drill/saw bits. Not even her doctor knew what kind of cutting tool was being used. But the woman observed these events while her brain was incapacitated (I don't know what the technical term would be). There is no way her brain could have formed those memories during the operation.
You can argue that her imagination created these NDE events before the surgery or after, but there is no way they could have have formed during the surgery.
That's not established. That's assumed. Most of that could be inferred if she saw things before the start, or heard certain things and could remember them. Point is, they're details, but questionable as to being linked to a presence outside the body. Sorry if that's nitpicky, but extraordinary claims...
Sorry, but you're wrong. It's definitely not common when the doctor that has operated you confirms your statements about what exactly what he is doing at these moments, that's not hallucination.
It is established that some patients see exactly what the doctors were doing, and you're saying they were hallucinating, after which the doctor confirms those events? Oh, please.
I do agree with that, I apologize for misunderstanding.
Personally I think scientists should make much thorough research about NDEs/OBEs, so they can finally solve this mystery about who is wrong and about who is right, I think you will agree with this.
cheers.