I don't believe there is a god vs I believe there is no god

[Mind Over Matter]

Is there a philosophical distinction between the statements, "I don't believe there is a god" and "I believe there is no god"???

I think in order to be a "real" atheist, one must be positively certain there is no god, but this is not the case. I suspect most self-identified atheists would admit that they have no certain knowledge one way or the other.

 

[Dywyddyr]

Is there a philosophical distinction between the statements, "I don't believe there is a god" and "I believe there is no god"???

Already done:
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=106976

I think in order to be a "real" atheist, one must be positively certain there is no god, but this is not the case.

Why do you think this? Why do think your definition is better than the actual one?

I suspect most self-identified atheists would admit that they have no certain knowledge one way or the other.

Duh.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Is there a philosophical distinction between the statements, "I don't believe there is a god" and "I believe there is no god"???

I think in order to be a "real" atheist, one must be positively certain there is no god, but this is not the case. I suspect most self-identified atheists would admit that they have no certain knowledge one way or the other.

Not really, but there can be.
The former appears to express a sort of neutral position, but that only lasts until the reason for the statement is revealed. Then we understand the focus of actual belief. Either way a ''belief'' is there.

jan.

 

[Dywyddyr]

Not really, but there can be.
The former appears to express a sort of neutral position, but that only lasts until the reason for the statement is revealed. Then we understand the focus of actual belief. Either way a ''belief'' is there.

Incorrect.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Incorrect.

How so?


jan.

 

[Dywyddyr]

How so?

"I do not believe" is NOT a belief.
It's quite simple.

Your claim that a belief is involved is unsubstantiated.

 

[Jan Ardena]

"I do not believe" is NOT a belief.
It's quite simple.

Your claim that a belief is involved is unsubstantiated.

I don't think it's possible to not physically believe something without believing the reason why you don't believe.

The only other excuse is ignorance. Then ''non-belief'' is nothing
but an expession of ''i don't know anything about the subject''.

jan.

 

[Dywyddyr]

I don't think it's possible to not physically believe something without believing the reason why you don't believe.

Personal incredulity is not a valid argument.
And you're still claiming a belief is involved in non-belief.
Fail.

The only other excuse is ignorance. Then ''non-belief'' is nothing
but an expession of ''i don't know anything about the subject''.

Also wrong.

Your very large blind spot is showing. But that's typical of you.

 

[Mind Over Matter]

Why do you think this? Why do think your definition is better than the actual one?

Because I don't think there are many atheists on this forum if by "atheist" you mean a "nihilist" who thinks that the metaphysical nature of existence logically and necessarily precludes the existence of what we call God in all respects.

I think there are a number of agnostics on this forum, people who claim that the limited knowledge we have does not allow us to make the legitimate or rational claim that God exists. The optimistic atheism of today is largely epistemological in nature and principle. These people mostly believe that being an atheist is an epistemological principle of rational and scientific thought, and they often shun metaphysics knowing that it undermines their position.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Dywyddyr,

Personal incredulity is not a valid argument.
And you're still claiming a belief is involved in non-belief.
Fail.

What do you mean by this?

Also wrong.

Your very large blind spot is showing. But that's typical of you.

Seeing as we're in a discussion, an explanation would be nice.

thanks in advance
jan.

 

[Dywyddyr]

Because I don't think there are many atheists on this forum if by "atheist" you mean a "nihilist" who thinks that the metaphysical nature of existence logically and necessarily precludes the existence of what we call God in all respects.

Wow! You're using your own definitions.
Atheist = someone who doesn't believe in the existence of god. Full stop.

I think there are a number of agnostics on this forum, people who claim that the limited knowledge we have does not allow us to make the legitimate or rational claim that God exists. The optimistic atheism of today is largely epistemological in nature and principle. These people mostly believe that being an atheist is an epistemological principle of rational and scientific thought, and they often shun metaphysics knowing that it undermines their position.

Go away and learn the difference between atheist and agnostic.
It's possible to be an agnostic atheist or an agnostic theist.

 

[Dywyddyr]

What do you mean by this?

You're making the same claim I previously said was unsubstantiated, again without support.
Lack of belief is not a belief.

Seeing as we're in a discussion, an explanation would be nice.

Explanation of what?
You make (again) an unsubstantiated claim and when I say "wrong" (with exactly as much justification as you provided) I'm expected to explain?
Get real.
Either support your arguments or stop querying mine. And stop making unfounded assumptions.

 

[Jan Ardena]

You're making the same claim I previously said was unsubstantiated, again without support.
Lack of belief is not a belief.


Explanation of what?
You make (again) an unsubstantiated claim and when I say "wrong" (with exactly as much justification as you provided) I'm expected to explain?
Get real.
Either support your arguments or stop querying mine. And stop making unfounded assumptions.

I don't see what is wrong with postulating belief of something, resulting in in a lack of belief, or disbelief in something else.

jan.

 

[Dywyddyr]

I don't see what is wrong with postulating belief of something, resulting in in a lack of belief, or disbelief in something else.

You weren't postulating you were declaring.
And you have already been informed (and not just in this thread) that lack of belief is NOT a belief.

Your blind spot:

I don't think it's possible to not physically believe something without believing the reason why you don't believe.

is over-riding any chance of rationality.
You're so wrapped up in your own belief that simply can't see how someone can not believe.
It's YOUR failing.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Dywyddyr,

You weren't postulating you were declaring.

Whatever.

And you have already been informed (and not just in this thread) that lack of belief is NOT a belief.

I didn't say it was.
I think it is possible to believe something that leads to a lack of belief in something else.
If you don't think so, state why.

Your blind spot:

is over-riding any chance of rationality.
You're so wrapped up in your own belief that simply can't see how someone can not believe.

It's YOUR failing.[/QUOTE]

What belief would that be?

jan.

 

[Dywyddyr]

I didn't say it was.

False:

Then we understand the focus of actual belief. Either way a ''belief'' is there.

I don't think it's possible to not physically believe something without believing the reason why you don't believe.

I don't see what is wrong with postulating belief of something, resulting in in a lack of belief, or disbelief in something else.

I think it is possible to believe something that leads to a lack of belief in something else.
If you don't think so, state why.

Beside the point. Atheism is a lack of belief in god. No belief in something else required.

What belief would that be?

Could be any. The simple fact is that you holding a belief appears to preclude (for you) the possibility that others simply don't. And therefore you seem to feel a need to assign a belief to them.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Dywyddyr,

Beside the point. Atheism is a lack of belief in god. No belief in something else required.

So why do you lack belief in God?

jan.

 

[cosmictraveler]

I'll just state that there is no such supernatural being that exists but rather myths and delusions that many people have claiming that one does exist.

 

[Dywyddyr]

So why do you lack belief in God?

No, a more relevant question is why do you believe in god?
Something must have convinced you he exists. On the other hand I've seen/ heard/ read nothing that shows he does exist.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Dywyddyr,

So why do you lack belief in God?

I've seen/ heard/ read nothing that shows he does exist.

So why should you lack belief in God?


jan.