I've been reading up on my mythology lately, and my linguistics. I am curious to know of some cultures myths concerning languages. I am already very familiar with the story of Babel. And I am reading up on my Mesopotamian mythology, which seems to have a few stories about language. What other cultures have mythological stories about language?
Mythology and language
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It is funny you bring that up ( Yeah Enmerkar the son of Mesh-ki-ang-gasher in Sumerian legends touch on it . It is my Belief that Mesh-Ki-Ang-Gasher is the original Mekigal and the King Melchizedek in the Bible. Also the root of the legends of Milquat the sea god . He had a mysterious disappearance into the sea. O.K. Me-E-Anna try a link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enmerkar_and_Lord_of_Aratta
O.K. that didn't work try
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enmerkar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enmerkar_and_Lord_of_Aratta
O.K. that didn't work try
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enmerkar
Cool. Wiki has a page on the topic, though it doesn't have much. I find it interesting that a lot of cultures have myths that involve a flood, and then people scattering and languages being confused. I'm wondering, about what time did the last ice age end? I'm wondering if when it did, it must have caused a lot of flooding throughout the earth. I'm guessing that this caused a lot of nomadic tribes to have to split up. I would imagine that they would create elaborate myths about this and those myths may have survived somehow. I wonder if there is any relevance to that...
Fraggle Rocker
Staff member
The last ice age did not end yet. Refer to the Wikipedia article on "Sea Level" for the information you need, with plenty of graphs.
To do my duty as Linguistics Moderator, I'll note that the definition of an ice age (more scientifically called a "glacial age") is an era in which there are large accumulations of ice that never melt. These include ice caps at the poles, ice sheets such as the one that covers Greenland, and glaciers such as those on the Alps, Himalayas, Rockies, Andes, etc.
Sea level is currently only about 100 meters higher than its lowest point. When all the ice melts it will rise to about half a kilometer above its current level, obliterating Florida and several rather nice islands, shrinking countries like Bangladesh, and submerging many of the world's most important cities, which grew up around seaports. However, this will happen very gradually, giving enough warning that even the most unresponsive governments will have time to react. It will hardly deserve the name "flooding." The impact in any human lifetime will be discernible but not catastrophic.
The "Great Flood" and the "Atlantis" myth common in Mediterranean and Levantine cultures probably refer to a tsunami caused by one of the largest volcano eruptions in recorded history. It shattered the island of Thera/Santorini ca. 1500BCE and destroyed Minoan civilization. The Greek empire, among others, grew to take up the slack.
Maximum sea level has never been reached since our species engineered its way out of the Stone Age. However, minimum sea level occurred at the peak of the current ice age ca. 60KYA, and this had a profound effect on our destiny.
Just as global warming melts all the icepacks, fills the atmosphere with more water vapor and increases rainfall, global cooling takes the water out of the atmosphere, locks it in icepacks and reduces rainfall. At that time there was a drought in Africa which caused a terrible famine. An adventurous troupe of the San (or "Bushmen") tribe decided to try their luck at leaving Africa in search of better conditions. Remembering that sea level was 300 feet lower than it is today, coastlines were broader, islands were larger, and the straits between them were narrower, it's easy to understand how, within the limits of stone age seafaring technology, they were able to travel to southwestern Asia and continue trekking along the continent's southern coast in search of a better home.
Of course they didn't know about ice ages and glaciers, so they just kept walking and rafting, hoping that eventually they'd find a new home. Weather patterns are always crazy, even during the worst times, and they found a paradise in Australia. DNA shows that these people were the ancestors of the Native Australians.
A few thousand years later, when the weather was not quite so dire, another group of San left Africa, but found the weather and food supply in Asia acceptable, so they settled there. They were the ancestors of the rest of us: all non-African, non-Australian humans.
We've only been living outside of Africa for 55,000 years, during which time there has been no truly cataclysmic worldwide flood to inspire legends. They have to be talking about the poor Minoans.
If you're interested in the migration routes of the Stone Age peoples, Go ogle the work of Dr. Cavalli-Sforza. There's even a thirteen-part YouTube video by one of his team members who takes you to some of the important places along our ancestors' journeys. They did exhaustive DNA analysis and have some astoundingly detailed maps of the migrations. They even discovered that a few of the first wave of African migrants didn't make the complete journey to Australia but decided to make a stand in southern Asia. There are villages along the Indian coast whose inhabitants have traces of their genetic markers.
Fraggle is not a good analyzer. He is stuck in indoctrination mod . I'am A Robot I am A robot . No fear I like his agenda bestest . A lake in the middle of America that may have had an ice dam that broke several times about 14,000 years ago . Wiki has a page on that too . Lets see if I can go find it ?
Well technically speaking...
I thought that roughly about 10,000 years ago, the ice sheets largely withdrew and sea levels drastically rose. Maybe my data is inaccurate...
But certainly, this eruption/catastrophe couldn't be the inspiration for flood/dispersion/language confusion myths in native american mythology...
Certainly for modern humans, but what about ancient people. They wouldn't have had any clue that water was coming. If ice sheets were melting, I imagine they would have at least noticed water levels rising, and rising drastically. I would also imagine this would impact their lives in such a way that they would create stories about it no?
While that event is well documented, new evidence suggests that the Flood story that is common throughout the mediterranean region is more likely from another event circa 7,000 years ago.
As the glaciers of the full-glaciation of the last ice-age melted, they appear to have paused in their melt for a few thousand years with the sea-level about 30-40 feet lower than present, then resumed melting about 7-8 K years ago for a millennia or so, bringing the seas to the current level, when the melt stopped again (and maybe it's starting up again nowadays?). That last surge of melting appears to have raised the Mediterranean Sea to where it broke through the Bosporos straights, flooding the very large fresh-water lake we now call the Black Sea. The huge flow of saltwater into that freshwater lake was reportedly roughly 100-fold greater than the current Niagra Falls flow, raising the lake level some 500+ feet. Searches of the Black Sea have found evidence of freshwater shells, as well as settlements on ancient shorelines now underwater.
It is easy to see how people who initially took to the hills as the lake rose would have found themselves surrounded by rising water, and with no recourse but to take to boats. If a family took their livestock with them, and reached a far-off shore later, it is easy to see how such Flood stories would have been told and retold by their descendants.
We've had threads on this before.
http://www.nationalgeographic.com/blacksea/ax/frame.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_theory
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6199827/ns/technology_and_science-science/
Also, I believe that we are currently almost exactly between full-glaciations of the past, and full melt. That is, full melt would raise the seas some 150 meters or thereabouts, not 500 meters. You can look this up for me if you would, please.
Fraggle Rocker
Staff member
The articles don't seem to be very enthusiastic. Apparently there's more research to be done. In any case, this could explain the Flood, but Atlantis simply has to be Thera. There were no cities that far north in 5000BCE.
The graph labeled "Sea Level Fluctuations" in the Wikipedia article on Sea Level puts us very near the low point. It shows two models, which put us somewhere between 200 and 400m below the high point. I'm sure I saw another graph somewhere in Wikipedia that put the historical high 500m above the current level, but with that much variation in the "expert" reconstructions it's hardly worth digging for.
Yep, right.
I believe that our relatively recent human past being in the 'ice-age' skews our perspective somewhat compared to geologic time. While the oceans are now about 300 feet higher than they were in earlier human history at the height of the ice-age, and we talk about how much land was flooded by the rising oceans as the glaciers retreated to their present much-reduced state, it does appear that the oceans were, over the preceding millions of years of pre-human history, about 600 feet higher than now for much of that time.
When flying in small planes along the California coast, the marine terraces of ocean levels at much higher levels than present are clearly and readily apparent. They are very similar to the 'benches' we have here in Utah when the Great Salt Lake was several hundred feet deep during the ice-age, leaving behind 'benches' at various levels in the hills at each level in which the lake stabilized for a period, then resumed evaporating/draining to the current state. Most of the Utah development would be under several hundred feet of water if that Lake were to return (not likely, as it carved a new drainage, rapidly draining the last portions). Likewise, most of human habitable land would be deep underwater if Earth were to fully emerge from this last ice-age, which we're still technically in the middle of.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_terrace
http://bonnevilleshorelinetrail.org/geology/geology.html
I believe that our relatively recent human past being in the 'ice-age' skews our perspective somewhat compared to geologic time. While the oceans are now about 300 feet higher than they were in earlier human history at the height of the ice-age, and we talk about how much land was flooded by the rising oceans as the glaciers retreated to their present much-reduced state, it does appear that the oceans were, over the preceding millions of years of pre-human history, about 600 feet higher than now for much of that time.
When flying in small planes along the California coast, the marine terraces of ocean levels at much higher levels than present are clearly and readily apparent. They are very similar to the 'benches' we have here in Utah when the Great Salt Lake was several hundred feet deep during the ice-age, leaving behind 'benches' at various levels in the hills at each level in which the lake stabilized for a period, then resumed evaporating/draining to the current state. Most of the Utah development would be under several hundred feet of water if that Lake were to return (not likely, as it carved a new drainage, rapidly draining the last portions). Likewise, most of human habitable land would be deep underwater if Earth were to fully emerge from this last ice-age, which we're still technically in the middle of.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_terrace
http://bonnevilleshorelinetrail.org/geology/geology.html
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Mythology has much more of a connection to the dream state, than it does to the conscious state where we collect sensory data. It is not about witnessing real events. Mythology reflects a projection from the unconscious mind, where the structuring and functioning of the brain firmware is made conscious. Because this brain firmware is the basis for human nature, independent cultures will often create very similar myths, even when they separated by distances which preclude conscious transmission; word of mouth. The same human nature firmware will create a similar outout since the brain structure is similar; both human.
Mythology sort of maps out the human psyche, as a function of time, with the historical changes within mythology, reflecting how the firmware is evolving. For example, the mythology of the Titans was much more chaotic and psychotic than the subsequent mythology of Zeus, telling us something about firmware progression within ancient human nature.
There dis not have to a great flood, for flood mytholgy to appear. If we assume this was an unconscious projection, from all over the world, a great flood would symbolize an overwelming of consciousness by the unconscious mind. This might mean a time of dissociation as the firmware shifts gears into the future, leaving people without firm footing in reality; swept away by the flood. The flood myths from all over the world, suggests this change occurred everywhere at about the same time, with human nature changing away from previous firmware.
Mythology sort of maps out the human psyche, as a function of time, with the historical changes within mythology, reflecting how the firmware is evolving. For example, the mythology of the Titans was much more chaotic and psychotic than the subsequent mythology of Zeus, telling us something about firmware progression within ancient human nature.
There dis not have to a great flood, for flood mytholgy to appear. If we assume this was an unconscious projection, from all over the world, a great flood would symbolize an overwelming of consciousness by the unconscious mind. This might mean a time of dissociation as the firmware shifts gears into the future, leaving people without firm footing in reality; swept away by the flood. The flood myths from all over the world, suggests this change occurred everywhere at about the same time, with human nature changing away from previous firmware.
Hindu mythology:
There grew in the centre of the earth the wonderful `world tree,' or `knowledge tree.' It was so tall that it reached almost to heaven. It said in its heart, `I shall hold my head in heaven and spread my branches over all the earth, and gather all men together under my shadow, and protect them, and prevent them from separating.' But Brahma, to punish the pride of the tree, cut off its branches and cast them down on the earth, when they sprang up as wata trees, and made differences of belief and speech and customs to prevail on the earth, to disperse men upon its surface
source:http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/andrew_white/Chapter17.html#I
There grew in the centre of the earth the wonderful `world tree,' or `knowledge tree.' It was so tall that it reached almost to heaven. It said in its heart, `I shall hold my head in heaven and spread my branches over all the earth, and gather all men together under my shadow, and protect them, and prevent them from separating.' But Brahma, to punish the pride of the tree, cut off its branches and cast them down on the earth, when they sprang up as wata trees, and made differences of belief and speech and customs to prevail on the earth, to disperse men upon its surface
source:http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/andrew_white/Chapter17.html#I
Yeah that sounds much more like conjectured pseudo-science idea to me. I put some credibility into the collective unconscious, but not that much...
Fraggle Rocker
Staff member
Jung calls these universal or near-universal motifs "archetypes," one of the major elements of his model of human psychology. Today we would call them instincts, preprogrammed into our neurons by our DNA. There have been two recent genetic bottlenecks in our evolution (Y-Chromosome Adam around 60KYA and Mitochondrial Eve about twice that long ago) so whatever accidental mutations they may have had in their chromosomes were passed down to all of us.
Psychology is not exactly a "hard science," but Jung's models are widely taught and are used in many fields including literary analysis and business management.
Unless a proper reference to some Purana etc is given, this entry is useless and an utter lie.
As far as I know, there is no confusion about toungues and languages.
Same comment as in the Biology thread "Race Vs Species":
"You keep posting this, but it is not true. All species that have a Y-chromosome will have, in their extant population, a "Y-chromosome Adam" regardless of whether the population went through a "genetic bottleneck". Likewise, all species that have mitochondria and utilize sexual fusion of sperm and egg will have a "mitchondrial-Eve" for their extant population regardless of whether the population went through a "genetic bottleneck". Genetic bottlenecks refer to the population as a whole being greatly reduced in numbers, then expanded back again in numbers, over time. That "bottleneck" in the species' population numbers will lead to a reduction in genetic diversity (i.e. the numerous mutations present in each individual, whether deleterious, positive, or neutral) as numerous mutations are deleted from the gene-pool.
It is believed that the human species went through a genetic bottleneck(s), but that is not associated with Y-Adam or m-Eve."
Fraggle Rocker
Staff member
We are all descended from a single male ancestor and from a single female ancestor. How are those not bottlenecks? Does all genetic diversity not have to be the result of subsequent mutation?
You tried to explain this last time and it didn't make a bit of sense then either!
I'll try to do better. Your suggestion of a 'bottleneck' for the descent from Y-Adam pertains ONLY to the genes of the Y-chromosome. Y-Adam might have lived in a very large population, and his descendants would have been intermingling with that population and its descendants. The other chromosomes would therefore not experience a 'bottleneck' effect of eliminating mutations from the gene-pool.
Likewise, the m-Eve is a 'bottleneck' only for the mitochondrial genome (which does not undergo sexual reproduction, but rather fission like bacteria, etc.). m-Eve might have lived in a very large population, and her descendants would have been intermingling with that population and its descendants. The other chromosomes would therefore not experience a 'bottleneck' effect of eliminating mutations from the gene-pool.
Moreover, "bottlenecks" would essentially require the genes of the population to fully intermingle over time, and that is something that has not happened in our species since m-Eve and y-Adam.
Here's a pertinent quote from Wikipedia on the topic, followed by a link to the full article. Pay attention to the pertinent quote, or you might be led astray by the introductory portion of the article:
"However, such coalescence is genetically expected and does not, in itself, indicate a population bottleneck, because mitochondrial DNA and Y-chromosome DNA are only a small part of the entire genome, and are atypical in that they are inherited exclusively through the mother or through the father, respectively. Most genes in the genome are inherited from either father or mother, thus can be traced back in time via either matrilineal or patrilineal ancestry.[6] Research on many genes finds different coalescence points from 2 million years ago to 60,000 years ago when different genes are considered, thus disproving the existence of more recent extreme bottlenecks (i.e. a single breeding pair).[4][7]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_bottleneck
When you talk about humans, the human mind is at center stage, while genetics is a secondary factor. For example, here is no gene for learning to read books, unless genes can mutate, simuntaneously and independently over the world, in the past 600 years, since the printing press. That statement contradicts who genes are suppose to evolve. However, this is consistent with how the brain and mind work.
Adam and Eve symbolize when the brain begins to leave genetics lagging behind in terms of its leadership role; fall from paradise. The mind doesn't have to wait for the slow boat of genetic. We can invent medicine to deal with genetic defects and don''t have to wait millions of years for the slow boat to arrive. With the new human mind came a new neural output called mythology. The gods were not bound to the earth; genetics. The highest Gods lived in the sky; head/mind.
We call the story of civilization history to differentiate is from evolution, since it was not about a new genes appearing, but about the human mind going through growing pains as it learns to lead.
Adam and Eve symbolize when the brain begins to leave genetics lagging behind in terms of its leadership role; fall from paradise. The mind doesn't have to wait for the slow boat of genetic. We can invent medicine to deal with genetic defects and don''t have to wait millions of years for the slow boat to arrive. With the new human mind came a new neural output called mythology. The gods were not bound to the earth; genetics. The highest Gods lived in the sky; head/mind.
We call the story of civilization history to differentiate is from evolution, since it was not about a new genes appearing, but about the human mind going through growing pains as it learns to lead.
Actually "civilization" is the word we use to connote "city-building culture" and differentiate those cultures from non-city-building ones. "Culture" though, predates civilization, and it is culture that we think of as the transmission of non-genetic traits from one generation to the next.
That said, there is no gene that teaches chimps to make tools to catch termites, and so they too can spread memes across time.