Tsunami hits Japan after massive quake

[birch]

it was all about greed. americans seized control of the islands and usurped the hawaiian people's government and royalty. these things are not as highlighted in american history or public knowledge as much as pearl harbor for obvious reasons.

actually, if they want to talk about karma, it could be said that the attack on pearl harbor was karma for americans. they don't understand that. that's what's dangerous about people's beliefs in that they can believe they are vicitms so become self-righteous to further do damage to others when they may be the ones who did wrong in the first place. that's how manipulation goes.

Prior to these events, the US had been leasing land at Pearl Harbor for decades, and the children of New England missionaries who came to Hawaii in the mid-19th century had become wealthy sugar plantation owners. The joke in Hawaii goes that the missionaries came to do good and ended up doing well. The Robi Kahakalau song "Firelady" calls them "missionaires who reaped the land a long time ago."

Many of these planters served on the cabinet of King Kalakaua and his sister and successor, Queen Liliuokalani. In 1887, they had threatened Kalakaua with action by their militia the Honolulu Rifles, and forced him to sign something popularly known as the Bayonet Constitution. Under that, Asians could not vote at all in the Kingdom of Hawaii, and Europeans, Americans, and Native Hawaiians could only vote if they owned enough property.

When Liliuokalani, who was married to an American, tried to replace the Bayonet Constitution with something more fair, the planters used the US Marines to overthrow the government and keep the Queen a prisoner in her own palace. They declared the Republic of Hawaii, in which Native Hawaiians could vote only if they signed a statement promising not to support the restoration of the monarchy. They then sought to annex Hawaii to the United States.

Native Hawaiians organized into two main groups, and tens of thousands of them signed a petition asking the US not to annex Hawaii. Their representatives presented their petitions before the US Senate. The Senate and President agreed that to annex Hawaii would be an inequal treaty, which was illegal by their own laws.

A few years later, there was a new US president: McKinley. And there was a war, the Spanish-American War, in which the Philippines went from being a Spanish Colony to being an American Colony. In a time of war, you can get away with many things you cannot in a time of peace. Remember, the US had been leasing Pearl Harbor as a base for their fleet for decades. In order to ensure the security of that base as a fueling station on the way to the Philippines, they illegally annexed Hawaii in 1898.

The Philippines eventually became independent, but Hawaii is still waiting. Actually, enough Filipinos, Japanese, and Americans moved to Hawaii that Native Hawaiians were a minority by 1959, when the residents of the Hawaii Territory (colony) voted to become the 50th state. By that time, few people spoke Hawaiian because kids at school had been punished for speaking Hawaiian--even chatting with friends on the playground--for decades.

So, the sugar planters overthrew the Queen and set up the Republic of Hawaii in order to protect their own property and political rights. The US annexed Hawaii in order to protect their base at Pearl Harbor as a fueling and supply station during the Spanish American War.

people are quite disgusting and corrupt. if they want to talk karma, then america is going to have a hellstorm of shit waiting for them too.

 

[ElectricFetus]

I don't care if they were 40 years old, or 1 year old. They were one way or the other not foolproof as some people like to claim.

Dams aren't fool proof either what is your point? And if you want far reaching effects you don't think all the coal power plants in china for example don't have an effect on everyone else in the world?

It's been fed to us for I don't know how long that things like that only happen in Russia, but obviously even the Japanese high standards weren't enough to guard them from a disaster of the likes

This nuclear accident is only a disaster in people heads, meanwhile people are dying due to an actual disaster!

I'm sorry, but I actually think there's a difference if we consider the long lasting effects of a meltdown and compare them with the side effects of a dam that blew up. One way or the other I never said that our future lies within hydroelectric dams Great stuff, but who said that hydroenergy is the future? One way or the other it's strange to compare the two, as if hydroenergy dam that breaks could negatively affect the whole country and all the surrounding nations..seems to me that a nuclear meltdown is more far reaching once it "breaks".

Lets look at the long term effects, lets take the worse case scenario that actually happened, a nuclear reactor without a containment dome: radioactive material spewed over a continent, whole city evacuated forever. People forbiding the consumption of livestock because those animals are no so radioactive that a consistent diet of them might equal the equivalent radiation dosage of percentage of a dental X-ray! OK, Let see how many people actually died, oh less then a hundred, actual confirmed cancer rates increase and mortality was much lower then expected, the city that was abandoned is less radioactive by several times then other cities in the world (like Ramsar) that are still populated with people having no increase cancer rates. It quiet clear how dangerous nuclear power is: it causes far more damage indirectly through mass hysteria and damage though actions taken by people's hysteria. There are two solutions to that, we can either drop nuclear power appeasing people's hysterical fear as they live harder lives with less energy, or we can simply educate people and continue to build nuclear power.

 

[ULTRA]

Who's hysterical? I've not seen any mass hysteria and I've been watching Japanese Tv

*Edit. The Japs are the least hysterical people I know of..

 

[birch]

You'd think two nukes would be the "remember" pearl harbor retort.
This is sad and pathetic...
Americans have some seriously debilitating ignorance...

actually it signifies extremely bad character. as if two nukes and military occupation isn't enough of a payback.

american people are not more moral than others as much as they like to tout they are the beacon in the world and everyone else is not as lily clean. when it comes down to it, on an individual level, they are bad/good like the rest of 'em.

 

[chimpkin]

Americans have some seriously debilitating ignorance...

We mass-produce it here. I would say it's because of our crappy education system...but truthfully, I think any child who is really motivated to learn here can get a semi-decent education. They may still need remedials to get into college-our inner city schools for poor kids,as well as poorer districts, are horribly dumbed-down. But they can get an education...they just don't necessarily want it. We don't have a culture that values intelligence-in fact it sort of regards intelligence as somehow "unhip".

We Keep it Real, yo. Real Dumb. :wallbang:

actually it signifies extremely bad character. as if two nukes and military occupation isn't enough of a payback.

Sigh. I can't argue with that. We're not all jackasses...but I suspect they do constitute a majority. Basically, Americans remember what was done to them, not the bigger thing they did in response.
For instance, I expect people will be bringing up 9-11 as justification for whatever they want done in any Middle Eastern country some time hence, despite all the people we've killed in invading Afghanistan and Iraq.

Disputed quote of Adlai Stevenson:

(from wikiquote.org)
* Supposed response to a woman who called out to him: "Senator, you have the vote of every thinking person!"

"That's not enough, madam, we need a majority!"

 

[ElectricFetus]

Who's hysterical? I've not seen any mass hysteria and I've been watching Japanese Tv

Why do you think it become such an issue in the news, on this forum, if people did not have an such a disproportionate fear of it? People are dying under ruble and here we are talking about the nuclear power plants.

*Edit. The Japs are the least hysterical people I know of..

lets not make stereotypes, because then I'll just have to say that the Japanese people are the least sorry for there horrific war crimes then any other people I know of.

 

[chimpkin]

the Japanese people are the least sorry for there horrific war crimes then any other people I know of.

They still haven't apologized for the "comfort women" rape camps, have they? Or Nanking?
I generally admire Japanese culture, but there is a strong racist streak present.

I don't feel like swinging that tar-brush, though. It splatters.

 

[birch]

Sigh. I can't argue with that. We're not all jackasses...but I suspect they do constitute a majority. Basically, Americans remember what was done to them, not the bigger thing they did in response.
For instance, I expect people will be bringing up 9-11 as justification for whatever they want done in any Middle Eastern country some time hence, despite all the people we've killed in invading Afghanistan and Iraq.

Disputed quote of Adlai Stevenson:

no, this isn't just about in response to an aggression against america. america annexed hawaii, usurped their own government and put their base there. if anything is karma, then the attack on pearl harbor would be. that would be closer to correct.

but most americans think they are on the moral high ground.

 

[birch]

lets not make stereotypes, because then I'll just have to say that the Japanese people are the least sorry for there horrific war crimes then any other people I know of.

really?? let's examine this honestly and realistically. for instance, do you think most americans really gives two shits about what america has done or is it merely lip service if they do that at all?

we'll see how 'in touch' with reality your response will be.

 

[ULTRA]

I picked this up on one of my wire feeds..If anybody wants to support the relief effort..http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/13/tsunami-aid-and-relief-how-you-can-help/

 

[Trippy]

Great stuff, but who said that hydroenergy is the future?

WTF are you on about here?
This statement has precisely zero relevance to anything that I've said, and Hydro, at least, is renewable.

One way or the other it's strange to compare the two...

Is it?
Is it really?
What do you propose we compare it to, then, if not the death rates from alternative forms of energy generation?

...as if hydroenergy dam that breaks could negatively affect the whole country and all the surrounding nations..seems to me that a nuclear meltdown is more far reaching once it "breaks".

Really?
You think a nuclear meltdown must neccessarily kill more people than a dam failure?
Let's look at some figures, shall we.
Chernobyl. The ONLY Nuclear accident to occur (so far) tht has scored an INES rating of 7. If we take some of the more pessimistic figures, eg Greenpeace or IPPNW, then we get somewhere in the vicinity of 90-110,000 deaths, projected out to 2065.

Compare this to, for example, the Banqiao dam failure in China in 1975. Overtopped by a 1 in 2000 year rainfall event. 26,000 people were killed in the initial dam failure (versus the 28 who died as a result of the initial blast at chernobyl through raidation exposure), and an additional 145,000 people died during the epidemics and famine that followed the dam failure.

Is that so?

Yes, I've watched news broadcasts from the US, Canada, and the UK (among others) and they've all done the same thing. They've interviewed one official, and then two or three people from anti nuclear lobbying groups, one of whom explicitly and directly accused the IAEA of covering up the true magnitude of what is going on.

Frankly it's disgusting.

All we actually know is this:
The primary containment was vented to preserve structural integrity.
This venting resulted in the build up of Hydrogen gas in the secondary containment.
This hydrogen gas was subsequently ignited.
Samples taken have indicated the presence of Iodine and Caesium in the air.
That's it.
The presence of I and Cs in the air simply indicates that one of the fuel rods has been damaged. This could have been a partial melt (the contents of that fuel rod melted) or it could simply mean that the rod has split its casing.

...Well, I've seen just as many pro nuclear people speaking up in the media, who are downplaying the whole thing, claiming that in their country this won't and can't happen, and so on.. I mean, you gotta love em too those pro nuclear experts.

And they may well be right.
M8.9 earthquakes and 10m Tsunamis don't just happen.
And there in lies perspective.
This plant survived an earthquake, and tsunami, and the backups kicked in normally, and the backups for the backups operated normally when those inexplicably failed It's just a shame that they weren't able to get the mobile backups for the backups of the backups up and running properly.

...Yeah, I heard about this deliberate venting, too, and I hope that they manage to get it under control.

The venting is to maintain the structural integrity of the reactor vessel and the primary containment precisely so they don't have a catastrophic failure. So far this is no worse than the Sellafield incidents between 1955 and 1979.

 

[adoucette]

"kaboom"?

NO

Nuclear power plants can't create a nuclear explosion.

Arthur

 

[ElectricFetus]

really?? let's examine this honestly and realistically. for instance, do you think most americans really gives two shits about what america has done or is it merely lip service if they do that at all?

we'll see how 'in touch' with reality your response will be.

no, not really, I was just making a statement about not making stereotypes, the stereotype was not meant to be taken factual but as a example of what not to say or think.

 

[Trippy]

"kaboom"?

As Arthur says.

No.

China Syndrome on Wiki

This is what happens during a meltdown,

3 is a steam pipe from the reactor, 1 is what they call Corium

These are images from within the Chernobyl station basement(s).

 

[ULTRA]

Slideshow of some amazing (and moving) pictures from reuters: http://www.reuters.com/news/pictures/slideshow?articleId=USRTR2JQY6#a=1

 

[drumbeat]

lets not make stereotypes, because then I'll just have to say that the Japanese people are the least sorry for there horrific war crimes then any other people I know of.

To be honest, I've found quite the contrary. There is a lot of sorrow and shame about the past in Japan from many people, in particular because of the two atomic bombs.

It greatly effects books, manga, art and film as well, where having whole cities destroyed is a common theme. eg: Akira, Godzilla.

Not to stereotype or anything...

 

[ElectricFetus]

To be honest, I've found quite the contrary. There is a lot of sorrow and shame about the past in Japan from many people, in particular because of the two atomic bombs.

It greatly effects books, manga, art and film as well, where having whole cities destroyed is a common theme. eg: Akira, Godzilla.

Not to stereotype or anything...

Again my statement was a example of stereotype, not to be take factually.

Anyways I don't think feeling sorry that they got their asses kicked is the same as feeling sorry for murdering, raping and pillaging millions. Uwe Boll put it best in this joke "My father died in the death camps too... he fell from a guard tower."

 

[chimpkin]

I'd say that most Americans are only made to learn about Pearl Harbor in history classes, they don't learn what we did to antagonize the Japanese beforehand, nor about the conventional firebombing of Japanese cities afterwards.
Remember, American people, on the whole, don't learn more than they're made to. Let's hear it for compulsory education!

A public statement made by eight Japanese intellectuals on August 14, 1982, called on both government and people to recognize and apologize to the Koreans for Japan's aggression and colonial injustices, including former comfort women who were recruited under the guise of the "volunteer labor corps" (Teishintai /Chongsindae in Japanese and Korean) and who perished in the South Seas.

http://www.jpri.org/publications/workingpapers/wp77.html

There does seem to be at least a small movement towards atonement and renunciation of imperialism. Does not seem very significant, though.

Once again, that tar-brush splatters...America has a long history of imperialism, was created through evicting the native inhabitants, and we mostly haven't apologized for it, or compensated anybody for anything.

I guess if Yellowstone blows up sometime soon, there'll be people saying we deserved it...
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...one-park-supervolcano-eruption-magma-science/

The pictures are just horrible, Ultra...I wouldn't wish that on anybody.

 

[Cowboy]

I'd say that most Americans are only made to learn about Pearl Harbor in history classes, they don't learn what we did to antagonize the Japanese beforehand, nor about the conventional firebombing of Japanese cities afterwards.

But then, of course, we'd need to teach kids why we decided to "antagonize" the Japanese beforehand. Ever hear of Nanking?

 

[drumbeat]

This thread has gotten daft now.