Obama Joker artist revealed

[GeoffP]

But the "black man playing white" is at best subsidiary to the "Obama = crazy sociopath" meme. The Joker is very topical, but hardly racial. If it was about racism, why not just choose anything else with a white face? Why not just parrot old vaudeville themes? I can't speak to any such themes during the campaign, but what the hell is "black man clown for the white" meant to be? Is this a common meme?

 

[Pandaemoni]

It occurred to me, briefly, and I discarded it. What exactly would the racial slur be? That Obama really is white? That he is less Democrat because of it? That he likes poorly applied red lipstick? (That he resembles thereby a soccer mom? :shrug

I am not certain specifically what slur people involved were imagining, but the one that seems most obvious is that Obama is "playing white" and doing it poorly.

That said, the poster does not outrage me in any respect, I simply see how others could see it as racist. Whether there actually was an intended racist message is something I have no opinion on, save to note that it is not impossible and that I'd be surprised if the artist hadn't realized that some might take it that way.

Or is its meaning rather that he - like the Joker - is a madman without regard for rationality?

Clearly that is the primary meaning, but as I said in the other thread, not everyone who sees the poster will know who "the Joker" is, let alone will they all be aware of the Heath Ledger version (and make up) of that character. There are more people in the U.S. who would define "the Joker" as "a playing card" than as the archenemy of Batman, particularly amongst middle aged and older black men of the sort that struggled through the Civil Rights era.

Of course *we* who the Joker is, but we are posters on an internet science forum. We are nerds almost by definition.

Imagining this is about race is based on the drive to see it about race. Look at the way you're phrasing your comments - "well, he's a Democrat, but that doesn't mean he isn't racist".

It doesn't. I am sure I do not need to draw a Venn diagram, but there are Democrats who are racist. The Civil Rights struggle itself was largely a conflict between Democrats, divided based on racism of some of them. Hillary Clinton once referred to "hard working Americans, white Americans" not supporting Obama.

You're taking it as delivered that it must have a racial meaning, and therefore that the perpetrator (if he must be considered that) is thereby a racist, but ignoring the far clearer and more topical social-economic implication.

No, as I as said (perhaps more clearly in the other thread), I have no idea what was in his heart. I do not think it likely that the the issue of race never occurred to him as he whitewashed the face of the first black President, but that it occurred to him does not make him racist. I do agree that the comic book message was the primary one, but again not knowing what was in his heart I cannot exclude the possibility of more than one message at a time.

At the time the artist produced the image there was little basis to claim Obama was "a madman without regard for rationality." Instead the artist's complaint seems to have been that he lacked substance as compared to "hard working" Hillary Clinton.

 

[iceaura]

But the "black man playing white" is at best subsidiary to the "Obama = crazy sociopath" meme. The Joker is very topical, but hardly racial. If it was about racism, why not just choose anything else with a white face?

Subsidiary subshmidiary - he's playing around with Photoshop, and he hits paydirt. Or dirt, anyway. A two-fer. And the poster guy, recognizing a good thing when he sees one, lifts the image - because it speaks to him.

And one of the things it says, is "nigger".

Notice that the Joker images of Blago didn't catch on like that, even around Chicago where Blago is very big news and his behavior easy to take as Joker stuff.

 

[Orleander]

My 18 yr old son saw it and he said "Obama as the joker...are they saying he's a criminal or insane? " He's of a generation where white face and black face have no racial meaning.

 

[countezero]

I do not deny much of what has been posted, but it continues to trouble me that some here think that if someone else does not immediately recognize something as racist that they are either in on it or just stupid.

I still do not see any racial implications in the poster. I thought it was a riff on a cultural icon. A riff with poor taste, but nothing beyond what is usual in the realm of political satire. What's frightening is that if someone else dubs it racist, that's enough. Everyone has to accept it as such.

It reminds me of the noose hoopla in recent years. At the time I was working with quite an odd assortment of people. The younger crowd, both black and white, never even suspected hanging a noose up for halloween was sinister. We were all chastised by the older black crowd. Then, as is the case now, we just didn't "see" it. And I actually took that as a positive. Culture, so to speak, had moved on. The generational split showed that.

 

[iceaura]

What's frightening is that if someone else dubs it racist, that's enough. Everyone has to accept it as such.

If the great majority of the people who see it, including the guy who ripped it off and used it for a poster and the thousands who spread the image around with racial commentary, take it as racist, it is.

 

[GeoffP]

Pandaemoni

I suppose it's "not impossible" that's how it was meant, but it's far, far from the first thing that comes to my mind. As I said, I might have considered it subconsciously for a moment, but clearly it didn't pass my recall filter. And most people will know who the Joker is - the image is nearly iconic. I'd be astounded if less that 95% of any random survey of Americans wouldn't be able to identify the "original" Joker image from the most recent Batman movie, nerds or otherwise.

There are more people in the U.S. who would define "the Joker" as "a playing card" than as the archenemy of Batman, particularly amongst middle aged and older black men of the sort that struggled through the Civil Rights era.

Not trying to "Fisk" here, but - this is a confusion of Jokers. The question is about the image, not about other uses of the word "Joker". Such a comparison would be flawed from the get-go. In fact, I disagree even that more people would identify "Joker" with the card before the "Batman" character.

It doesn't. I am sure I do not need to draw a Venn diagram, but there are Democrats who are racist. The Civil Rights struggle itself was largely a conflict between Democrats, divided based on racism of some of them. Hillary Clinton once referred to "hard working Americans, white Americans" not supporting Obama.

Of course. But I don't believe this is one of those times. If the "sideline" of the poster was racism, I believe it failed so badly that I doubt there could have even been such an intent to begin with.

At the time the artist produced the image there was little basis to claim Obama was "a madman without regard for rationality." Instead the artist's complaint seems to have been that he lacked substance as compared to "hard working" Hillary Clinton.

Interesting - is this actually known? This, too, would be an unusual comparison. I actually see the Joker as being fairly industrious for his profession. Surely no lazy individual could produce acid flowers and punching glove extenders with such zeal. Or maybe he farms it out, I don't know.

Subsidiary subshmidiary - he's playing around with Photoshop, and he hits paydirt. Or dirt, anyway. A two-fer. And the poster guy, recognizing a good thing when he sees one, lifts the image - because it speaks to him...Notice that the Joker images of Blago didn't catch on like that, even around Chicago where Blago is very big news and his behavior easy to take as Joker stuff.

Well, whether he hit "paydirt" or not - and I have no idea of his salary for the work - I don't know what he was actually thinking. I can only gauge from his statements and his work, and so far I don't agree that it supports your hypothesis. As for Blago - Blago is small potatoes, frankly, compared to Obama. He seems more a profiteer than a mastermind crook (which I am doubtless right-wing media has precisely described Obama as at some point). For Blago, I'd choose something like...maybe Blackbeard, or Yellowbeard. Hard to evoke any common mainstream images of a profiteer off the top of my head. Someone from the Hudsucker Proxy, maybe, but that's not too mainline, and never was, unfortunately. And wasn't the poster seen around LA rather than Chicago? Who really knows Blago there, compared to Obama?

 

[GeoffP]

My 18 yr old son saw it and he said "Obama as the joker...are they saying he's a criminal or insane? " He's of a generation where white face and black face have no racial meaning.

Precisely. The younger generation is who this is directed at.

 

[iceaura]

Well, whether he hit "paydirt" or not - and I have no idea of his salary for the work - I don't know what he was actually thinking. I can only gauge from his statements and his work, and so far I don't agree that it supports your hypothesis.

They certainly don't contradict my hypothesis.

He's of a generation where white face and black face have no racial meaning.
”
Precisely. The younger generation is who this is directed at.

Recognizing the image as the Joker does not remove the racial loading of the whiteface on Obama - not even in Orleander's teenager, let alone a mid-twenties guy from innercity Chicago.

What would be your guess at general age range of the guy(s) who lifted the image, slapped various other titles on it, and phoned it around attached to various racial epithets?

As for Blago - Blago is small potatoes, frankly, compared to Obama. He seems more a profiteer than a mastermind crook (which I am doubtless right-wing media has precisely described Obama as at some point). For Blago, I'd choose something like...maybe Blackbeard, or Yellowbeard.

Driftglass's image was plagiarized nationally - and the various plagiarizations did not find it necessary to put Blago in whiteface, either.

 

[GeoffP]

They certainly don't contradict my hypothesis.

Well they support mine more, if you will.

Recognizing the image as the Joker does not remove the racial loading of the whiteface on Obama - not even in Orleander's teenager, let alone a mid-twenties guy from innercity Chicago.

Well, I don't believe in the racial loading, since the meme clearly isn't that. I'm sure there are lots of other ways in which that could be done. If the theoretical innercity Chicagan did define it as racist, how do I know s/he's not seeing it through tinted glasses? (Before you get angry about the last part, I'm sure others would describe my view in the same way. They're wrong, of course, but I'll try not to be offended.)

What would be your guess at general age range of the guy(s) who lifted the image, slapped various other titles on it, and phoned it around attached to various racial epithets?

I couldn't really begin to make a serious guess. Young conservative? Old conservative? Who is phoning it around?

Driftglass's image was plagiarized nationally - and the various plagiarizations did not find it necessary to put Blago in whiteface, either.

Well, Blago wasn't the topic of the story; nor was this in point of face "whiteface", either. You could certainly do a Joker of Blago. Has the same not been done of G.W. Bush? Was that also a racial insult?

 

[iceaura]

Well they support mine more, if you will.

No, they don't. You are hypothesizing an absence of significant racial loading, and pointing to a presence of dominant Joker loading as evidence.

Well, I don't believe in the racial loading, since the meme clearly isn't that.

You are ignoring the obvious collusion of memes - plural - that are my explanation for the immediate (and overtly racist) viral spread of the poster.

Take the racism out of that poster, and IMHO most of the spread of it never happens. As a mere Joker image, my guess is that it doesn't take off as it did. (Or as a mere whiteface image, for that matter.)

Recall that the original Joker was made up to look degenerate, degraded - somebody who looked as he did because he did not care about his image, even for purposes of con or deception, and deliberately or carelessly deflected honor or respect or accolades. That is not the desired - or achieved - meme.

Well, Blago wasn't the topic of the story; nor was this in point of face "whiteface", either. You could certainly do a Joker of Blago

Jokers of Blago have been done, and like most Jokers of people most are not in whiteface. I mentioned that, in the first place, as a response to a post claiming whiteface was inevitable and necessary for the Joker image.

 

[madanthonywayne]

No, they don't. You are hypothesizing an absence of significant racial loading, and pointing to a presence of dominant Joker loading as evidence.
You are ignoring the obvious collusion of memes - plural - that are my explanation for the immediate (and overtly racist) viral spread of the poster.

That is such BS. It's a cool looking picture comparing Obama with the villian from a popular movie. It's certainly a more clever caricature than the unending array of Bush/Hitler images we've been subjected to by the left for the past 8 years.

And I could have posted many, many more such images but for the 3 picture limit. These pictures, despite the endless iterations, never really caught on. The Obama picture did. Now you want to pull out the race card to delegitimatize Obama's critics. Give me a break.

 

[iceaura]

These pictures, despite the endless iterations, never really caught on. The Obama picture did. Now you want to pull out the race card to delegitimatize Obama's critics.

That's beautiful.

Even guys like madanthony have noticed the level of legitimacy possessed by Obama's "critics" - at least, those from the right. The ones who supposedly don't really notice the racial implications of whiteface clown posters of the man.

The critics from the left - such as myself - are not delegitimized quite so conveniently.

 

[GeoffP]

No, they don't. You are hypothesizing an absence of significant racial loading, and pointing to a presence of dominant Joker loading as evidence.

I respectfully disagree. That is essentially my hypothesis, yes: but the data support it. If virtually the entirety of the poster is meant as "Joker loading" (an excellent term), then there is little or none that can be ascribed to racism.

You are ignoring the obvious collusion of memes - plural - that are my explanation for the immediate (and overtly racist) viral spread of the poster.

I've seen your statement about the intent of the artist, and you seem to have deferred on that to the a priori position that the artist likely wasn't racist. But my understanding from the LAT article was that it's been going around virally with the phrase "SOCIALISM" stamped underneath. That's the one and only context I've seen it employed in. From the article:

Then the counter exploded after a still-anonymous rogue famously found his image, digitally removed the references to Time Magazine, captioned the picture with the word "socialism" and hung printed copies around L.A., making headlines.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2009/08/obama-joker-artist.html

Do we really know the poster has been virally sent around with racist messages? I haven't seen them myself.

Take the racism out of that poster, and IMHO most of the spread of it never happens. As a mere Joker image, my guess is that it doesn't take off as it did. (Or as a mere whiteface image, for that matter.)

You forget I'm married to a conservative. I think the shock value for them is the public criticism or insult to Obama, who you must admit is a bit of a Messiah figure to the true believers. (We cynics know better. ) It's probably something of a surprise and a thrill that someone so strongly lauded by the Dem end of the American political sphere is being associated with the Joker, a known sociopath. In fact, if anything, the viral publication is a bit off-kilter, since I wouldn't call the Joker a socialist; that being said, the implication is hardly racist. I think the meme behind it was excited deflation - particularly since the artist is in Chicago.

Recall that the original Joker was made up to look degenerate, degraded - somebody who looked as he did because he did not care about his image, even for purposes of con or deception, and deliberately or carelessly deflected honor or respect or accolades. That is not the desired - or achieved - meme.

Maaaybe. I got the impression that the care going into looking degenerate was part of his intense nature, actually. It always appeared to me as though the appearance was meant to frighten, to shock: the viral poster (I guess that's the point here) is meant to do the same so far as I can tell. Shock, fear, alarm - "Look! Here comes a socialist, and he's a psycho!" They did the same to Bush, I'm almost positive. Hell, there's a program online (which I fully intend to get) to do just that.

Jokers of Blago have been done, and like most Jokers of people most are not in whiteface.

?? They have? They aren't? Whiteface is the key to "Jokerdom", frankly. How could they be of a Joker without a white face? Every image I've ever seen of a Joker is in whiteface from Casar Romero (who stole the show) on up. White face, green hair, purple jacket.

I mentioned that, in the first place, as a response to a post claiming whiteface was inevitable and necessary for the Joker image.

Well...it is, frankly.

 

[iceaura]

?? They have? They aren't? Whiteface is the key to "Jokerdom", frankly. How could they be of a Joker without a white face? - -
White face, green hair, purple jacket. - -

Oh, you have to put some clown makeup on - but the bedraggled appearance is the original Joker, and the key to Jokerdom. That poster of Obama was not bedraggled - it was a clean, simple whiteface. Not smudgy. And the (unkempt) green hair w/ purple jacket turns out to be unnecessary, for the artist's satisfaction.

It's probably something of a surprise and a thrill that someone so strongly lauded by the Dem end of the American political sphere is being associated with the Joker, a known sociopath.

I admit to being out of the loop about any widespread ecstatic veneration of Obama - I put most of that exaggeration down to the usual suspects, the ones who inform us that Reagan was wildly popular and "everyone except a few kooks" supported the invasion of Iraq. So I may have missed out on a large population of people who would be shocked, surprised, or thrilled, by seeing Obama presented as the Joker by the 27%. It looked like same old same old, to me - been getting a steady diet of this lame-ass point-missing semiotic-illiterate noise since the 80s. What is even unexpected, let alone thrilling, about seeing cartoons of any national Democratic politician as a sociopath?

In fact, if anything, the viral publication is a bit off-kilter, since I wouldn't call the Joker a socialist; that being said, the implication is hardly racist.

The racial implications of putting Obama in whiteface can hardly be avoided by calling the Joker a Socialist - which, as you notice, is off-kilter.

A black guy in whiteface as a Socialist, on the other hand, is more on kilter among the wingnut crowd, not so?

 

[Buffalo Roam]

I find this truly delicious, a Palestinian view point, Obama doesn't measure up, and isn't the return of the Hidden Imam.

I also like the point of;

Alkhateeb says he wasn't actively trying to cover his tracks, but he did want to lay low. He initially had concerns about ...... connecting his name with anything critical of the president -- especially living in Chicago, where people are "very, very liberal," he said.

Firas Alkhateeb

"After Obama was elected, you had all of these people who basically saw him as the second coming of Christ," Alkhateeb said. "From my perspective, there wasn't much substance to him."

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2009/08/obama-joker-artist.html

 

[Pandaemoni]

And most people will know who the Joker is -

"Most" as in a "majority" of Americans? I am not sure that is true. A majority of Americans would not even be able to tell you who Iago is.

the image is nearly iconic.

An image from last summer of a particular (and now dead) actor, playing that particular role? If you has said that the DC comic image of the classic Joker was nearly Iconic, I'd have seen that as plausible, but The dark Knight has not exactly entered the annals of beloved national treasure just yet.

As far as I know (and maybe I am wrong) no one ever portrayed the Joker looking that way save Heath Ledger. So that is not even the icon in my mind's eye for "The Joker" let alone an independently iconic image.

It seems to me that if you are a 50-70 year old black man, keeping up on the latest comics and their related movies is not something you are likely doing,

I'd be astounded if less that 95% of any random survey of Americans wouldn't be able to identify the "original" Joker image from the most recent Batman movie, nerds or otherwise.

I find that astounding myself. At anything less than 95% you'd be astounded?!!? This is America, and in America only 43% are unaware that George Washington led the Continental Army during the Revolution, but 95% know Health Ledger's Joker? How many know Cesar Romeros? 99.9%?

As of 2007, only 93% of people could identify an image of Arnold Schwarzenegger, as per this study:

http://people-press.org/report/319/...e-changed-by-news-and-information-revolutions

Other than in the movie itself, I don't believe I have ever seen images of Heath Ledger as the Joker. The movie only earned $530 million domestically. If you assume $8 per ticket, that is only 67 million tickets sold. Even if no one ever saw it twice, that is only 22% of the country. For something drawn form the comics, that's pretty good, but repeat viewing from comic-fans may bring that number down substantially.

I am sure there were still pictures from the filming, but I don't recall seeing them on TV or billboards, magazine articles or elsewhere.

I have to wonder if it is not possible that the tendency to assume we are the norm and that others are by and large like us in a variety of ways, may have led you to overestimate the number of people who are fans of or generally exposed to comics and related media.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Interesting. When I first saw the poster I didn't think it had anything to do with race at all and I still don't. I thought he was being cast as 'the joker' the 'intelligent evil maniacal' one just like in Batman. All white actors who played the joker needed white face makeup in order to play the part. Its meant to hide the scars that formed the smile on the character's face. Remember the joker is supposed to be deformed underneath the make-up.

Heath was awesome in that role.

 

[S.A.M.]

Was he supposed to admit that he thought about race while doing it? The fact that he's a Democrat or that he didn't openly admit the thought occurred to him isn't evidence of much. Democrats are just as racist and anybody else and virtually nobody *admits* to being a racist in this country. Even people who want all the blacks to move back to Africa sometimes claim they are not racist here.

All I can say (as I wrote before) is I don't know what he was thinking, but he's not a deep thinker if the possible racial interpretation never occurred to him.

He's a Palestinian. Maybe his social context is different?

According to his statement:

Alkhateeb told the Los Angeles Times - which unmasked his identity - that the poster had been meant more as a joke than as a political statement. The original draft of the image was meant to satirize, or in this case "jokerize," Obama's picture on the October cover of Time Magazine

The image has sparked debate among Americans of whether its message is racist, if it is related to the ongoing conversation of reforming health care, and of just how liberal the new U.S. president may be.

But for Alkhateeb, none of this seems to matter. "After Obama was elected, you had all of these people who basically saw him as the second coming of Christ," he told the Los Angeles Times. "From my perspective, there wasn't much substance to him."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1108927.html

I agree with his statement, there isn't much substance to Obama.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Pandaemoni: All I can say (as I wrote before) is I don't know what he was thinking, but he's not a deep thinker if the possible racial interpretation never occurred to him.

Well it didn't occur to me. It could be something that some are reading into it but was never intended. I saw it as suggesting Obama had the qualities of the Joker. Hell it may not even be that, he could have simply found that Obama's face reminded him of the Joker. You have to admit that after Heath, Obama's joker is better than Jack's.