Objective Reality

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by fess, Nov 13, 2008.

  1. fess Registered Senior Member

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    I would say shape is relative. Any 'real' object's shape depends on the size of the measuring unit. A seemingly flat surface becomes quite irregular if you look closly enough. The closer the observer looks, the more it changes

    Maybe you can say the same about mass. Wouldn't an object have to have an effect on something else to say that it has mass? e.g. bend space-time. If so, mass is relative to its environment

    I think color & firmness are definately perceptions of an observer.
     
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  3. Enmos Valued Senior Member

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    Wot ? lol

    No dude, it doesn't change. It was like that all along, you just didn't look close enough.

    No.

    Our perception of it is completely subjective, but it's nonetheless based on objective data (for color it is reflecting only certain wavelengths for example).
     
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  5. Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Unless reality agrees.

    All properties of the universe exist whether or not there is a conscious perceiver; however, to make a list of them would likely require a conscious perceiver.

    Universe.

    In science an observer is any system capable of receiving information. Rocks are observers for example.

    I suspect your question is concerned with sapient observers, in which case the question doesn't make sense. You might as well have asked why birds don't poop elephants.


    No. 'God' is a human psychological phenomenon called anthropomorpism which looslely equates to putting human characteristics on non-human events/objects. Think about commercials with talking toasters, bugs bunny, mother nature, father time, and the grim reaper.

    Truth is when a notion / concept in your mind corresponds with actual reality. That whole paragraph has zero correspondence and therefore is not true.
     
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  7. fess Registered Senior Member

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    For an object to exist it must have properties, Properties are descriptions, descriptions require describers
     
  8. Enmos Valued Senior Member

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    Properties are not descriptions.
     
  9. Mr. Hamtastic whackawhackado! Registered Senior Member

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    If I perceive myself to be walking in a perceived forest and perceive a tree lying on the ground, I will accept the possibility of it having once been rooted and upright. I will also embrace the possibility that it all popped into existence for me to perceive just prior to my perceiving it.

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  10. Mr. Hamtastic whackawhackado! Registered Senior Member

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    For any object to exist, it must do so without my perception. How can I be sure it exists in the absence of my direct perception?
     
  11. Simon Anders Valued Senior Member

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    Actually they are. In fact if there is a property that is not a description you cannot talk about it, nor can you prove it exists.

    But can you give an example of a property that is not a description.
     
  12. Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Incorrect. Properties are not dependencies of objects. They are unique qualities of objects.

    Incorrect. They are qualities of objects. Humans of course can differentiate between these qualities and assign them sequences of phonetic and / or visual patterns (i.e. spoken and written phrases).

    Sort of correct... but good enough.
     
  13. Simon Anders Valued Senior Member

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    They are perceptions of objects or effects of those objects.
     
  14. Mr. Hamtastic whackawhackado! Registered Senior Member

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    Crunchy-Isn't quality something perceived? :shrug:
     
  15. Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Perceptions of objects are well perceptions of objects. Effects are effects. The concept of a property is the concept that objects and events have unique qualities. Whether or not there are people to conceptualize this, objects will still have those qualities.
     
  16. Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Quality is a human concept that references an object or events differences. Those differences are there whether or not a human is perceiving them.
     
  17. glaucon tending tangentially Registered Senior Member

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    All correct. Qualia only obtain within the realm of perception.

    Sorry CC, you are incorrect:


    my emphasis

    You can't see how this is contradictory?
     
  18. Vkothii Banned Banned

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    Once again, I see the philosophers are getting tangled up in what 'property' is, what we mean by 'the meaning' of this and that.

    This is a recording: everything in your head that you can 'remember' is because of little particles called 'neurons'. They 'talk' to each other, and we sort of 'hear' what they say because something 'arrives' from the store, delivered by the 'neural delivery' service.
    Recording ends. 'click'

    What shape or quality, is a tree that's fallen over? What if there are two?
    Does it matter? Is there any difference between 'a tree' and 'some trees', or any number of trees? Or any of anything? What's 'different' about 1? Compared to 'more than' that many?
     
  19. Simon Anders Valued Senior Member

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    .
    Cart before the horse. In fact your whole theory rests on ideas dragged out of perceptions. The map called brain or neuron (which is not a particle) can not be more real than the territory.

    I assume this is metaphorical, but even so it causes all sorts of problems since it implies a mediation between 'us' and perception.

    It's a big difference for that second tree that's fallen over and for all the incoming decomposers and perhaps for me if I am collecting wood for the window or if I loved to sit under that second tree.

    But then i am not sure what you are getting at here.
     
  20. Simon Anders Valued Senior Member

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    Whatever is there that are there whether or not a human is perceiving it or not is not something we can talk about. Any property we can make sense of is one that is 'for us': IOW needs our presence to mean anything. The observer is included in that property. It is not the same property for the alien who sees only infrared or the bat avoiding it in its night swing toward a mosquito.
     
  21. Vkothii Banned Banned

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    Have you ever looked down a microscope at any 'cells'??

    If you haven't, here's a hint: they look like particles, enclosed by a boundary (something like a bubble); neurons have extensions in their 'membranes' or boundaries. Bio 101.

    Are you sure that the representation of "the territory", i.e. neural structure/interaction, a pattern IOW, can not "be more real" than what it represents? You mean something like: "waves on a surface cannot be more real than the surface"?? WoFo does that mean?
     
  22. Simon Anders Valued Senior Member

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    Yeah, I've had bio 101. They did not look like particles to me, and, definitely, neurons even less than other cells. Particles with bubbles around them is getting closer. I suppose if one used low magnification then some cells might look like particles. But then I am not sure why we should bring in what they look like in those magnifications.

    I don't think the analogy is quite right. A diagram of waves is not more real than waves or my experience of waves. And it cannot be. Because it is dependent one experience for meaning, validation, relevence....etc.

    There is nothing more real than experience.

    This does not mean that one's interpretation of that experience is always correct, but that is another issue.
     
  23. Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

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    I don't see how it's contradictory. On one hand we have objects and events which have differences. On the other hand we have a humans whom detect those differences and assign linguistical patterns to them.

    It's quite clear that the former's existence is not dependent on the latter.
     

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