View Full Version : why is incest bad


Asguard
10-01-02, 03:07 AM
ok i am asking for it here but i am drunk so i dont care:p

why is incest bad

homosexuality is ok because its a matter of choice

abortion is ok for the same reason (even if i dissagree with this one)

so whats wrong with screwing ur sister or parent or whatever if ur both over age?

i mean isnt it a matter of free choice?

hell i would rather someone who cared sleep with someone i cared about than some people i have herd about (like my cousins ex who beat her regully)

i actully knew a girl who dated her twin brother cause she didn't know they were related

she is not evil and nor is he, they had grown up apart and never knew eachother

Ok as i said i am drunk so i apolgise for the incoherance of this

Xev
10-01-02, 03:15 AM
Well I can't sleep, so we can have fun toghther!

I agree. I don't think you could ever have true consent in, like, a parent child relationship, even if both were of age, but, you know, I mean, consenting adults should be legally able to do whatever the fuck they want to each other, you know?


(God fucking hell, that's bad English)

Asguard
10-01-02, 03:23 AM
i herd that girls flirt with there fathers so that they can prove they are as good as there mother

i was even reading about a girl who became obsesed with the man her mother wanted to remarry

BW how do u concent when ur tied up like a stuffed pig

Xev
10-01-02, 04:20 AM
i herd that girls flirt with there fathers so that they can prove they are as good as there mother

Okay, that is like, more than I wanted EVER to know.


BW how do u concent when ur tied up like a stuffed pig

Sheesh, this is what I get for giving you helpful advice about titanium-alloy handcuffs. :p

Bachus
10-01-02, 04:44 AM
Originally posted by Asguard
i herd that girls flirt with there fathers so that they can prove they are as good as there mother



Does that also happen with adopted daughters? ;)

Asguard
10-01-02, 04:52 AM
im not sure

i would gess so if they were adopted as babys whats the differece

but if they were teenages when they were adopted i dont know

Bachus
10-01-02, 04:54 AM
Someone needs to do a study on that. Let's say if you adopt em at 18 or something ;)

Asguard
10-01-02, 04:56 AM
thats really stupid

you CANT adoped people over 18

they are at the age of concent

Bachus
10-01-02, 05:13 AM
I was just joking :)
Although i do wonder if older adopted children in time actually do get attached to their adoptive parents.

bbcboy
10-01-02, 05:24 AM
I hope so otherwise all my fantasies about "Torch sing trilogy" were futile":mad: :mad:

Bachus
10-01-02, 05:26 AM
To get back ontopic:

Wasn't incest bad because when i child is born from that it has a higher risk of getting a decease or something?

bbcboy
10-01-02, 05:27 AM
More like being in the shallow end of the gene pool. You only have to look at the royal family for evidence of this.

Bachus
10-01-02, 06:36 AM
And what about those small isolated communities? Since they don't get new blood are they doomed?

bbcboy
10-01-02, 07:20 AM
Possibly, but nature will have her way and with the world becoming smaller every day will they be so isolated for ever.

The other way of looking at this is in the animal kingdom. (I mean a little further down the food chain) It's a well known fact the mans intervention has brought about a variety of breeds of so called pedigree dogs and cats etc. These pedigrees are renowned for being sickly and not nearly so robust as your average mutt.

I can't remember where I read it it was so long ago but apparently us males are genetically programmed to spread it about bit. That's why we have the word "infidelity"

We can't help it guys it's in our genes.

So the good news is even if you do hump your sister you'll eventually get bored and move on to aunty flo :D

grazzhoppa
10-01-02, 07:55 AM
I don't have a sister, only a brother and that's not for me.

I see my mother as a provider, not a reproducer.

Futurist
10-01-02, 08:43 AM
it is evil, doing that must go to eternal hell, burned with eternal fire....

Asguard
10-01-02, 08:45 AM
hmmm

go fuck ur sister:p

Futurist
10-01-02, 08:51 AM
Originally posted by Asguard
hmmm

go fuck ur sister:p

that is animal's act, inhumane, deserve burned to death.

Asguard
10-01-02, 09:11 AM
why?

and dont quote the bible

this is ethics not religion

Neutrino_Albatross
10-01-02, 10:06 AM
Its a bad idea because it tends to reinforce negative gentic traits (its a major reason why european royal families were so completely screwed up :cool: )

Xev
10-01-02, 01:12 PM
that is animal's act, inhumane, deserve burned to death

Well fine then, go fuck your mother. :p

Neutrino_Albatross
10-01-02, 05:34 PM
Well fine then, go fuck your mother.
No we do not want futurist to fuck any of his family members. That would result in the reinforcement of his genic traits. This is not in the interest of humanity. His genes should be diluted or not spread at all. ;)

spookz
10-01-02, 05:57 PM
ahh the roleplaying games of my childhood (doc/patient, mom/dad)

;)

spookz
10-01-02, 06:04 PM
futurist

i believe in nipping shit in the bud.

so before you tell me to burn in hell,

go fuck your mom

this time in a very bad place


;)

prozak
10-02-02, 09:23 PM
Nothing is "bad", nothing is "good"

-BUT-

Incest makes for awkward dinnertime conversations.

spookz
10-02-02, 09:55 PM
a point well made, but it kinda depends on what you are eating

prozak
10-05-02, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by spookz
a point well made, but it kinda depends on what you are eating

I should have said "awkward FAMILY dinnertime conversations."

e.g. 'Daddy, why does my butt still hurt?' and 'But you said it tasted like cream of mushroom soup, Mommy... and that's what we're having.'

Bowser
10-09-02, 05:05 PM
Incest. I would think that most people are just naturally repulsed by the thought, much like homosexuality and other sexual oddities.

spookz
10-09-02, 05:20 PM
and does your thought correspond with reality?

Adam
10-09-02, 05:31 PM
Why is incest bad?

Have you seen my cousin? *shudder*

spookz
10-10-02, 12:04 PM
brothers touching sisters
sisters touching brothers

catch it all tonight on howard stern's "e! entertainment" show

;)

Bowser
10-10-02, 12:23 PM
"and does your thought correspond with reality?"

I believe that most people would not view their siblings in that manner. It isn't normal.

spookz
10-10-02, 12:40 PM
mais c'est normal!

spookz
10-10-02, 01:51 PM
because it frequently involves the sexual abuse of children


japan

"Ancient Japan resembled both India and China in having institutionalized Greek-style pederasty of boys - by priests as well as warriors - temple prostitution of both boys and girls, and widespread child prostitution, including the ancient geisha system.(149) Japanese brothels would start girls in sexual service at S to 7 years old.(150) Pederasty (shudo) by the aristocracy and priesthood is well documented since at least the 14th century, with young boys given by their parents to be used anally by samurais and by priests in monasteries - the buggered boys sometimes having been worshipped as gods incarnate in religious cults similar to those of the cult of the Virgin in the West.(151)

One of the most endogenous societies in the world, Japan has approved of incestuous marriages in court circles even in historical times.(152) Preferred sibling, cousin, uncle-niece and aunt-nephew marriages have been so extensive that genetics experts have discovered that the inbreeding has affected their size and health.(153) How often this incestuous marriage system occurred in traditional Japan is still largely unexplored. One indication of what is likely to be found is a 1959 study by Kubo showing that there were still rural areas in Japan where fathers married their daughters when the mother had died or was incapacitated, "in accordance with feudal family traditions.(154) Kubo concluded that incest was considered "praiseworthy conduct" in many traditional rural families. In the 36 incest cases he studied in Hiroshima, he found that there was often community moral disapproval of the families who lived in open incestuous marriages, but that the participants themselves did not think of it as immoral. In fact, when the father was unavailable to head the family, his son often took over his role and had sex with his sister in order "to end confusion in the order of the home." Other members of the family accepted this incest as normal.

In traditional Japan, quite young girls were introduced into sex by older boys who visited their bedrooms at night with the complicity of the girl's parents (called night-prowling, yobai). The boys "assembled in communal huts and instructed slightly younger village males in sex approaches and techniques..." Although they recommended "gentle persuasion,"(155) there was no guarantee that all was so gentle in fact, since the parents "looked the other way" in accordance with custom while the older boys had intercourse with their young daughters.

Western observers even today often notice that Japanese mothers still masturbate their young children during the day in public and at night in the family bed - in order, they say, "to put them to sleep."(156) The average Japanese today sleeps with his or her children until the children are ten or fifteen years old,"(157) - one recent Japanese study found daughters still sleeping with their fathers over 20 percent of the time even after age sixteen.(158) Even when the home contains a dozen rooms or more, parents and grandparents feel "lonely" if they sleep apart from
the children in the family, and therefore go to bed with some child every night (the mean age in one study of children sleeping alone is 12.7 years).(159) Since so many families still practice what is termed dakine co-sleeping - with the parent or grandparent sleeping while physically embracing the child, a practice said to be beneficial to the health of the adult"(160) - and since most Japanese parents still regularly have sexual in-tercourse while the child is in bed with them,(161) one wonders how scholars can continue to maintain that nothing sexual usually happens to the Japanese child in the family bed, particularly since none have yet ask-ed the children themselves about their sexual experiences."


India

However high the rates of childhood molestation may turn out to be in contemporary Western countries, the incidence in countries outside the West is likely to be much higher. Because they have only recently moved beyond what I have termed the infanticidal mode of chiidrearing, whereby as much as half of the children born were killed by their parents,(89) the use of children for the emotional needs of adults is far more accepted, an attitude that fosters widespread incestuous acts along with other child abuse. Although the evidence is scattered and much remains hidden, enough exists to indicate the dimensions of what eventual scholarship will probably uncover.

Childhood in much of India begins with the young child being regularly masturbated by the mother, "high caste or low caste, the girl 'to make her sleep well,' the boy 'to make him manly..."' This practice has been said to be widespread by many reliable observers, including Catherine Mayo - whose extensive investigations in India in the 1920s led to the first child marriage laws(90) - a physician,(91) an ethnologist,(92) a religious scholar (93) and a sociologist.(94) As is the case with virtually all non-Western cultures, the child sleeps in the family bed for several years and regularly observes sexual intercourse between the parents. The extent to which Indian parents go beyond this and overtly have sex with the child cannot be determined. Rampal, the sociologist who recently did interviews modeled on the Kinsey studies about contemporary Indian sexual practices, concludes that "there is a lot of incest...It is hidden along with other secrets of families and rarely gets a chance to come out, like seduction at the hands of trusted friends of the family... To arrive at even a passable estimate of incest cases would be to touch the hornet's nest.. no one will ever confess to such a deed, therefore, any attempt to collect statistics may prove to be futile at present."(95)

Boys as well as girls are reported as being masturbated and raped by the men in the family, including fathers, older brothers, uncles and cousins.(96) By the time children are four or five, they are usually taken to bed at night by others in the extended household. "A particular uncle may like her to sleep in his room, which is considered a great gesture of closeness."(97) As one girl describes it: "I hardly ever slept with my parents after I was four. I rotated almost every night between my various uncles and sometimes my grandmother. But it was difficult to have any space in her bed because all the grandsons slept in her bed.. So I prefer-red to sleep in bed, who was very nice and put his arms around me in winter."(98) This practice is similar to the customary sharing of their wives by brothers, who have free sexual access to each other's wives, an ancient practice still approved of in some areas in India.(99)

So acceptable is sex between close relatives in India that uncle-niece and cross-cousin marriages were preferred among certain Indian groups.(100) As the old Indian proverb has it, "For a girl to be a virgin at ten years old, she must have neither brothers nor cousin nor father." These sleeping patterns with relatives who live in common residences continue even after marriage, since husbands are often cold to wives, and sex with the husband's younger brother is covertly encouraged by the family to give the wife someone to be "close" to.(101) Grandfathers often call the little girls "my little wife," give them candy and "play the role of an old seducer," teasing them by saying "Don't you want to marry me?"(102) One observer stuns up traditional Indian sexual stimulation during childhood as follows: "The little Hindu girls are deflowered by the little boys with whom they play, and repeat together the erotic lessons which their parents have unwittingly taught them on account of the general promiscuity of family life throughout India. In all the little girls of less than ten years of age the complete hymen is wanting.. Incest is often the rule rather than the exception."(103)

In addition to direct incest by parents, the seduction of little girls who are taken in as wards or servants is quite common. Many older men, Rampal reports, "get down to seducing young girls whom they give protection at home for any reason - education, service, relationship, close friendship with father or brother. [They] take full advantage of the girl's innocence and her lack of experience in dealing with men who desire them sexually. The girls generally regret such relationships because of [the] extreme dualism of calling their secret lovers as 'uncle' or 'brother' before others and indulging in coitus in the privacy of [the] bedroom..."(104) Fathers sometimes encourage the seduction by giving a daughter to a friend to be brought up "as his own daughter" so the friend "then initiates her to incestuous coitus."(105)

The sexual use of boys and girls goes back as far as records exist and includes all cases in India. As Mayo says, "For a period so long that none knows it beginning, the Brahmin has been intensively cultivating, and with priestly authority handing on, a passion for immature girl-children in sexual use." (106) Temple prostitution of both boys and girls has a long history, and Mayo reported in 1927 that "the little boy...is likely, if physically attractive, to be drafted for the satisfaction of grown men, or to be regularly attached to a temple, in the capacity of prostitute. Neither parent as a rule sees any harm in this, but is, rather, flattered that the son has been found pleasing."(107) Both priests and visitors used the boys and girls sexually, most of the children being "of good caste." One community of temple prostitutes numbered two hundred thousand members, according to government statistics.(108)

Child marriage has been the rule in India at least as far back as 300 B.C. The rationalization for child marriage - like that for extreme seclusion of girls, purdah(110) - is that it is necessary to protect the girl from the seductive males around her. Indian mothers of higher castes admit that they are "afraid to leave their daughters of [age eleven] at home, even for one afternoon, without a mother's eye and accessible to the men of the family. Far down the social scale the same anxiety is found. The Hindu peasant villager's wife will not leave her girl child at home alone for the space of an hour, being practically sure that, if she does so, the child will be ruined." (111) Therefore, the child has traditionally been married off as early as six or seven years of age.

While child marriages are consciously excused as defenses against seduction by males, they also, of course, carry out the seduction, since child marriages have generally been consummated right away and since the groom is almost always decades older than the child bride. As the Mahabharata says, "Let the man of thirty years wed a ten-year-old wife, a nagnika (one that has not yet menstruated), or let the man of twenty-one get one seven years old."(102) Since prior to the 1929 child Marriage Restraint Act most Indian girls were married and began sexual intercourse before age 12, they moved from familial incest to sex with older men chosen by the family while they were still children.(113)

Fathers who allowed their girls to reach puberty without being married were condemned by their religion to hell. Therefore, the first child usually was born shortly after the onset of puberty, almost always dying during childbirth because of the physical immaturity of the mother.(114) When attempts to outlaw child marriage were made in 1929, nine volumes of testimony were published by the Age of Consent Committee, most of them defending child marriage. The complaint was that it was the foundation of the Indian family, since "the girl-child must 'get herself disciplined' [raped] through actual consummation of marriage 'to look upon one individual...as her lord and husband..."(115)

Mayo said most of this committee testimony was too obscene to even repeat in its insistence on the necessity for child sex. TheCommittee was overwhelmed by those who insisted that the children were so oversexed that by the time they were seven years old that child marriage was their only salvation. "Little children, both boys and girls, they lament, naturally develop an unnatural, perverted and exhausting precocity, under the stimulus in which they are steeped" - that is, the family incest during the first seven years. Mayo reported numerous testimonies that blamed the little girls for their rape, claiming that early marriage was an absolute necessity, since "Cupid overtakes the hearts of girls... at an early age... . A girl's desire for sexual intercourse is eight times greater than that of males.. When there is appetite, it is the best time for giving food..."(116)

The result of this early incest was a society where adult sexuality was considered extremely dangerous, where people suffered agonies of guilt every time they engaged in sex with their spouses, where all sexual intercourse between men and women was considered polluting and where popular movies still frequently need detailed rape scenes to satisfy the male audience. (117) As might be expected, Indian religion has been permeated by perverse sexual fantasies, worship of the penis and extreme fears of loss of semen, including the worship of an incestuous penis-god, Siva - where women were expected to kiss in public the genitals of naked priests. Even today in cults such as the Hindu Sakti sect incest is advocated as "a higher grade of sexual intercourse and an advanced step toward religious perfection."(118)

The Indian subcontinent provides a veritable Galapagos of psychohistorical variations of incestuous behavior, providing examples of a wide range of evolutionary stages that can be useful in comparative historical studies of other societies. In some endogamous Indian groups, such as the Baiga, actual incestuous marriage is practiced between men and their daughters, between women and their sons, between siblings, and even between grandparents and their grandchildren. (118) "My impression is that most of them have little or no innate repulsion towards incest," Says Elwin, their ethnographer, (120) the viability of their society disproving by itself all theories about the impossibility of incestuous marriage.

Variations on the fully incestuous life style of the Baiga are numerous, and regular sexual intercourse during childhood is widespread in many Indian groups. One of the best documented is the Muria, who make their young children a part of their sexual activities in the family bed. Then, when their children are five or six years old, the parents claim they are getting too old to continue to take part in family sex, so they send them to a dormitory set up by the adults for the sexual use of the children by adolescents and older men.(121) The Muria claim it is the children's fault they have to be removed from their homes and sent to the sex dormitory:


"Some children are very good and understand [why they have to be banished from the family bed], but others are stupid and insist on crowding into the parents' room..." The adults supervise and encourage all the sexual activities that take place in the dormitories. Although at times children as little as two years of age are taken to sleep in the dormitories, they are usually not required to be part of the sex activities until 5 or 6, since if they are made to have sex at 3 or 4 they often "wet their beds [and] wake up crying."(122)


When being introduced into the sex dormitory, the children are made to fag for others and are "hammered into shape" by the adolescents in charge. The young children start their sexual activities by massaging the older children, and are only then "initiated" into actual intercourse. Intercourse begins at age 5 or 6, initiated by an adolescent or adult: "A big girl teaches a little boy by letting him fondle her breasts and hug her. Then she opens and spreads her legs and makes the little boy lie on her breasts. She shows him how to open her clothes and insert the little penis with his hand."(123)

There are two types of dormitories: the classic model, where girls cannot sleep with a partner for more than three days at a time, under threat of punishment; and the "yoking" model, where partners are "married" to each other for longer periods. The children are usually assigned partners by those in charge. Although sometimes a girl can name her own partner, she cannot choose not to have sex, or she will be gang raped:


"Should a girl refuse to come when sent for, a number of young boys are dispatched to bring her by force. When she is brought, should she refuse to elect a mate, a number of older boys violate her one after the other, until she names the boy she would have for her mate."(124)


The children have intercourse in one another's presence, with certain relatives, such as younger brothers, taking over if the older brother is ab-sent for a time.(125) "Everyone belongs to everyone else" is the spirit of these dormitories; "you change from girl to girl just as you change your rings from finger to finger," lest one be "ruined by love."(126) (All these rules, of course, are set down and changed at will by the parents, not the children.) Older married men often visit the dormitories and have sex with the children, particularly when their own wives are having their period and are considered polluted.(127) The sex dormitory system of the Muria - which is similar to that of a number of other Asian and African groups(128) - been highly praised for its "enviable" positive attitudes toward sex both by the ethnologist who studied them and by other anthropologists reporting on his research.(129) The dormitories are called a "happy, exciting world," in contrast, says the ethnologist, to other Indian villages where there was more child rape than in dormitory villages.(130)

baiga tribe (http://www.lib.virginia.edu/area-studies/SouthAsia/Ideas/CP/ch09baiga.html)

muria (http://www.therai.org.uk/film/catalogue_2/50_muria.html)


i rarely freak out at this shit but whats up with these indians?



[u]middle east

"The sexual use of children in the Middle East is probably as widespread as in the Far East.(172) Historically, all the institutionalized forms of pedophilia that were customary in the Far East are extensively documented for the Middle East during its earlier infanticidal childrearmg mode, including child marriage, child concubinage, temple prostitution of both boys and girls, parent-child marriage (among the Zoroastrians), sibling marriage (among the Egyptians, among both royalty and commoners), sex slavery, ritualized pederasty, eunichism, and widespread child prostitution. Furthermore, as in India, there are parts of the Middle East where customs from earlier times have been maintained intact, so that more detail is available than is usually preserv-ed in historical documents.

In the oasis of Siwa, for instance, mothers regularly give their boys to older men for sexual use, both related and outside the family, and fathers regularly lend their young sons to each other, similar to the Central Asian Islarnic tradition of bacaboz, where most fathers trade their sons with others for sexual use.(173) Pederastic marriages and pederastic prostitution have been so widespread in Siwa until just recently that everyone is accustomed to the proposition that men normally love boys more than they do women, saying: "They will kill each other for a boy. Never for a woman."(174) Muslim holy men (imaam) regularly have boys available for sex, saying the ingestion of the imaam's semen is necessary for absorbing his spiritual powers, sometimes even extending to formal marriage with the boy.

Sex for boys in the Middle East is said to begin in infancy and continue throughout childhood. Parents and others masturbate the infant's penis in order "to increase its size and strengthen it," and older siblings have been observed playing with the genitals of babies for hours at a time.(175) As the boy gets older, mutual masturbation, fellatio and anal intercourse are said to be common among children, particularly with the older boys using the younger children as sex objects as a reaction to the over stimulation of the family bed. Pederasty of boys by the men in and near the ex-tended family is said by an Arab sociologist to be common, since "the mere sight of pretty boys is regarded.. .as disturbing and terribly tempting."(176) Moralists often find it necessary to issue warnings such as these: "A man should never spend the night in a house with beardless boys" and "Do not sit next to the sons of the rich and noble: they have faces like those of virgins and they are even more tempting than women."(177)

By the time of circumcision - a traumatic ritual(178) that is usually performed at ages 3 to 6, whose unconscious purpose is to purify the boy and cleanse him(179) of the molestation to which he has been subjected - the boy is supposed to stop wearing the dress-like shin that allows ready access to his genitals and begin wearing pants. However, since he often continues to sleep in the parental bed, to have sex with siblings and cousins, to experience sexual attacks at school and to attend nude public baths (hammam) with his mother and sisters,(180) his sexual over stimulation often continues into the 7- to 14-year-old phase. Much of the incest may occur in the baths. Bouhdiba reports: "The hammam...is a highly eroticized place - so much so indeed that the name has come to signify for the masses the sexual act itself... 'going to the hammam' quite simply means 'making love'.. .Every Muslim can relive his childhood in terms of his experience of the hammam. . notoriously a place of homosexuality, male and female.. .there the child has all the time in the world to contemplate, examine and compare sexual organs [so that] every Muslim is fixated on his mother..."(181)

As girls in the Middle East are considered worth less than boys, it may be that their incestuous use during childhood is even more prevalent. One report found that four out of five Middle Eastern women recalled having been forced into fellatio between the ages of 3 and 6 by older brothers and other relatives.(182) A female Arab physician who recently conducted an extensive study of childhood seduction reported that "most female children are exposed to.. incidents of sexual assault" during their early years by "the brother, the cousin, the paternal uncle, the maternal uncle, the grandfather or even the father. If not a family member, he may be the guardian or porter of the house, the teacher, the neighbor's son, or any other man." (183) The molestation, she says, begins with masturbation or fellatio and then proceeds to intercourse. "In most cases the girl surrenders and is afraid to complain to anyone, since, if there is any punishment to be meted out, it will always end up by being inflicted on her. It is she alone who loses her honor and virginity. The man never loses anything..." The incidents are termed "frequent, but remain hidden, stored up in the secret recesses of the female child's self, since she dare not tell anyone of what has happened to her..."

Girls are reported to be sexually assaulted at school and in the streets,(184) and child marriage has proved as difficult to stamp out in many areas as it has been in India.(185) The assaults are accompanied by severe physical and psychological damage, according to research by one group of medical experts at the Ministry of Justice in Cairo, and usually go unpunished even in those rare occasions when they are brought to the attention of authorities, "in order to avoid scandal.(186) Since the girl's hymen must be intact when she gets married, surgical repair is sometimes requested in order to conceal the loss of virginity through the assaults. As in the Far East, young servants are particularly favored sexual objects, both for men whose wives are absent, menstruating, pregnant or frigid and for adolescents who sometimes feel less guilty having sex with ser-vant girls than with their sisters.(187)

Arab women, of course, are often aware that their spouses prefer having sex with little boys and girls to having sex with them. Their retribution for the men's pedophilia comes when the girl is about age 6, when the women of the house grab her, pull her thighs apart and cut off her clitoris and sometimes her labia with a razor, thus usually ending her ability to feel sexual pleasure forever."



usa

"It is possible to correct the incidence rates statistically for these factors, Although only 11 percent of Russell's respondents recalled being victimized before the age of five, another study shows the most common age of sexual abuse reported to authorities is four years, while other studies report that from 21 to 50 percent of reported sexual abuse victims involve children under five.(54) Since few people consciously recall traumatic events of any kind before the age of five, and since the graph for sexual abuse distribution by age runs roughly level from ages two to sixteen,(55) the incidence figures stated above should be increased by at least an additional 50 percent(56) to account for these three factors, Therefore, the corrected incidence rates are at least 60 percent for Girls and 45 percent for boys. Until someone is courageous enough to directly question the children themselves whether they have been molested - a simple procedure that has never been done in any published study to date - 60 and 45 percent should be considered as the most reliable national incidence rates we now have available for the U.S."


europe

"Even though there are no reliable statistics for most European countries, a recent flurry of books, articles and telephone "hotlines" has begun to reveal widespread sexual molestation. A recent BBC "ChildWatch" program asked its female listeners - a large though biased sample - if they remembered sexual molestation, and, of the 2,530 replies analyzed, 83 percent remembered someone touching their genitals, 62 percent of the full sample recalling actual intercourse.(85) Official estimates of German children sexually abused and raped each year now number over 300,000, and sexual abuse hot lines are becoming more widespread.(86) The establishment of Italian "SOS-infanzia" hotlines - initially much resented by the public - have begun to reveal widespread pedophile networks, baby prostitution and Boy Scout/Girl Guide molestation, as well as the widespread sexual abuse of children within famines, with a particular emphasis on the pederasty of boys. (87) Finally, the most careful European study to date is a recent unpublished German survey by the Iinstitut fuer Kindheit that for the first time anywhere dared to ask the children themselves about their sexual experiences. I have been told that these researchers found an 80 percent childhood sexual molestation rate among Berlin school children.(88) The exact details of this study will certainly be revealing when it is published. It may be that direct questioning of children rather than relying on retrospective memory may produce even higher real incidence rates of sexual molestation than our 60 percent and 45 percent estimates for the U.S."


thailand

"The sexual use of children in the remainder of the Far East follows the pattern of India and China. In Thailand, for instance, a survey in 1990 found that 75 percent of Thai men had had sex with child prostitutes, from 20 to 40 percent of them HIV-infected, so that Asia is about to become what one expert terms "the epicenter of the AIDS epidemic."(171) The rising incidence of AIDS among children around the world is just one index of how widespread their sexual use really is."


The Universality of Incest (http://www.psychohistory.com/htm/06a1_incest.html)

Bowser
10-10-02, 05:11 PM
Those are some primitives.

bbcboy
10-10-02, 05:22 PM
Congratulations to spookz for what could possibly be the longest post in the history of forums and tomorrow when I'm sober I'm gonna read it! :) ;) :)

spookz
10-10-02, 05:27 PM
liar! you aint gonna read shit!

;)

shubie
10-24-02, 02:14 PM
I can't fathom the idea of fucking my own family blood. It's disgusting and it just isn't right. However, as far as adopted families go I don't see anything wrong with it (been there, done it ) because in that instance the name of mother and father is merely a title through legal measures to permit people to obtain a makehift family when they are unable to have their own through natural order. that doesn't make you blood relatives.
P.S, old Xev could use a good spelling / vocabulary lesson. ;)

Empty Dragon
10-24-02, 05:59 PM
I don't think I wil ever get that out of my head...... I do not understand how so many would follow that with out question? I just don't understand that what so ever? Born into a life like that I cannot even comprend the pain and emtpyness. That would follow once you ae born your made a slave, I just don't understand it. Why? Where're human and that means we can choose to act upon our animal instincts, I don't understand it at all are people so weak as not to be able to control their sexual urges and are willing to rape another jsut to staisfy them. Does the reprecusions on the victim ever come into there mind, do they have a mentality where it is justified? If they experienced it do they not realize what pain it will cause. Male children being raised to rape women, I mean that to me is horrible. I can even concieve of the suffering that would resault of that. Don't people even care, I don't know that just boogles my mind, I don't understand that mentality. I realize humans can be foolish? Then to they return to live thier lives like nothing? Every human has thier worth but how can one still believe that, sure mabye they have potential but they most likey will never realize it? Warrior using children as sex toys and raping, they ahve know right to be called warriors, they're nothing more then soldier. I have never imagined something so horrible not even the worst pain i have felt in my life could compare to that. I cannot even concieve that such event ae taking place at this every moment. And there is nothing any of use can do, how long will these practices continue for another 2000 years, will this needless suffering ever stop?

Can humans ever make peace with themselfs and the world around them?

Why is insect bad? If it is by to consenting "aware" adult I would believe that is there business I would hold desire to control thier actions or or pass judgment to then. But to impose such practices on one who does not have the knowledge or intilectual compasity to relize the implication of trhe actions to me is nothing more then rape.

spookz
10-24-02, 07:15 PM
Originally posted by shubie
I can't fathom the idea of fucking my own family blood. It's disgusting and it just isn't right. However, as far as adopted families go I don't see anything wrong with it (been there, done it ) because in that instance the name of mother and father is merely a title through legal measures to permit people to obtain a makehift family when they are unable to have their own through natural order. that doesn't make you blood relatives.
P.S, old Xev could use a good spelling / vocabulary lesson. ;)

do elaborate a little more please (fucking adopted families)

why dont you msg xev and offer her a lesson? i am sure she will be grateful and repay you for your kindness

ps: welcome to sciforums

:)

CounslerCoffee
10-24-02, 07:25 PM
This is kinda a funny thread because something like this came up after I went to my family reunioun a few weeks ago.

My Second cousin is really hot and I would go out with her. I was just wondering if it was wrong to think that because shes my SECOND cousin. But then again I do live in Kentucky, you guys know our saying "Incest is the best.".

I asked a close friend if liking my second cousin was wrong and she said "Coffee! Thats digusting.". What do you guys think?

Adam
10-24-02, 07:30 PM
All humans come from incest. Every one of us has incestuous relations in our ancestry. Go back far enough, and we all came from small incestuous groups, most likely. Various royal groups over the ages have insisted on incest to maintain the "purity" of bloodlines and such. Breeders of horses and dogs and various other animals deliberately use incest to bring out certain traits.

Blah. If the relative is too close, procreation can produce defects. Otherwise, I really don't give a damn.

EDIT: But I will tell April. :p

CounslerCoffee
10-24-02, 07:33 PM
But I will tell April.

Thank God (if he does excist) shes not here right now.

In the meantime Id just like to say that I still think that my second cousin is hot.

Has anyone here ever had sex with a cousin?!

spookz
10-24-02, 07:41 PM
its so wrong

notme2000
10-24-02, 11:03 PM
You know what, I suppose if they are both of legal age, consenting, and have thought it through it isn't morally wrong, though I still think it's stupid (and kinda gross in my opinion, but that's cause I'd look at my sister as a sister, not a potential lover). Stupid cause you have your family for life. If you fall in love with your sister, get together, break up... That's it... We all know it's hard to "stay friends", and so you'd probably lose someone that, otherwise, would have been with you your whole life....

In conclusion, under certain circumstances, in which no one is the prey, and they are both consention, legal age (preferrably even older) etc... Then it aint morally wrong, but I wouldn't think it'd be worth it anyway.

CounslerCoffee
10-24-02, 11:27 PM
notme2000,

I dont like my sister or anything...thats just nasty. I was wondering about second cousins? WHat about that?

notme2000
10-25-02, 12:29 AM
Coffee, go for it... Why not? It's not like you were raised looking at her as a sister or anything, or are even that related, lol. Just make sure she wants to too eh? lol

Rowen
10-25-02, 06:02 PM
Second cousins are not that close when you look at incest. People marry their first cousins sometimes so second cousins really arent that bad. To agree with Adam, royalty always used to marry their cousins and we all basically somewhere are going to be screwing someone were distantly related to.
Have you asked her what she thought about it?
Last qtn.
Do really have a problem with it, or do you just feel guilty because it is not a "norm" with society?

Just remember (im going to hate myself), If it feels good do it/ even if you shouln't.

Fuck shouldn't!

Rowen

CounslerCoffee
10-25-02, 06:41 PM
Oh no! YOu guys got it all wrong. I only see her at my family unioun once a year and we always hang out and do stuff. THats it. I just thought that she was hot and was wondering if that was wrong. Which by everyone elses opinion it isnt. Were not that related as far as I know.

She lives in Germany, very far away. Shes not German, she lives on a army base or something. But anyways I wouldnt go out with her but if I could I would. Everyone else in our family though would disagree. My family has strong Irish Catholic beliefs.

Ah well screw it. I would if I could, but I wont cause I cant.

mistermistoffolees
02-07-04, 11:33 PM
I think it's got to do with that whole genetic thing. You know, relatives having children with weird genetic fuck ups. I apologise for the profanity.

chunkylover58
02-08-04, 12:33 AM
I heard about a study once where women were given sweaty T-shirts from various different men. They didn't know from whom the shirts came, but they were to sniff them and see which odor "turned them on" the most ... sort of a pheremone thing. One of the shirts had the sweat of a close male relative ... brother or father. Without variance, the women were most repulsed and least attracted to the odor on those shirts of their relative. They were more attracted to the odors that were provided by the men who were much farther away from them, genetically. (Interesting to note, they were also repulsed, but to a lesser degree, by sweat odor from men farthest removed from their own genetic background).
Apparently, there is a biological "security system" that would attempt to keep incest, and thus, swimming in the shallow end of the gene pool, from happening.

daydream_believer
02-12-04, 03:52 AM
okay, i think we can be made to think anything. why was incest ever considered wrong? coz it screwed up genes. what if they're the same sex? then there's no mucking with a gene pool so no problem, right? but no, everyone still thinks it's wrong. even if the reason isn't there. personally, i think that parent/child is way wrong. coz it's the parent's role being stuffed up. but brother/sister or sister/sister or brother/brother isn't so bad......so long as they don't produce a child. also, i think it's especially ok for identical twins, as their bond is so close that sometimes the only other person they really could love is their twin... but so long as it's love, not just random sex......

btw, i'm a huge fan of Elladan/Elrohir (elrond's twin soons in LOTR) so i think twins are allowed to be incestuous......besides, i've been studying mollecular biology and we don't really have as much free will and morals and stuff as we think, it's all just chemicals and dna......we are animals.....remember that all!

tablariddim
02-12-04, 07:17 AM
Trouble with incest, is that where it does happen, it tends to start with the parent or older sibling abusing the child. A clever manipulator could probably cultivate a 'natural' desire in the child to actually want to have more sex with the family member even as they grew older, but I think it would be extremely rare for incest to begin when both members were well past puberty.

Latest research assumes that we are actually genetically predisposed to search for a mate that has a completely different 'smell' than our own blood relatives. Of course, this doesn't mean that a person cannot be sexually attracted to their own child, especially if the child has acquired the spouse's smell!

chunkylover58
02-12-04, 07:40 AM
also, i think it's especially ok for identical twins, as their bond is so close that sometimes the only other person they really could love is their twin... but so long as it's love, not just random sex......



I always wondered what really went on with Fonzi and the Hooper triplets. One at a time? Or did the sisters have at it with one another, as well? I guess this explains it....

daydream_believer
02-12-04, 04:29 PM
mwhahahaha....just had to say, if I had a twin of the same sex as me who was up for it.....we'd be lovers......

but parent/child or with a child resulting from the union is very bad.....

Bubblecar
02-14-04, 01:52 AM
Incest between close relatives of opposite sex is socially taboo for obvious reasons. Homosexual incest (between siblings) is equally taboo but the reasons behind this are less clear - except insofar as homosexuality itself is perceived to "threaten" the power structure of the nuclear family etc. It's a murky area.

Mrs.Lucysnow
02-14-04, 02:34 AM
Xev why don't you believe their can be consent between parent and child even if the child were an adult?

otheadp
02-14-04, 02:35 AM
it's not ok now because it's socially unacceptable
maybe one day it will be socially acceptable
we'll see public sexual display between siblings and parents/children

it's getting there... many pornos now feature twin sisters "servicing" one guy, or just going down on each other

spudbud21
02-19-04, 08:14 PM
Incest isn't wrong look at. "Adam and Eve" come on they were pretty close relitives.

alain
02-20-04, 03:56 AM
Bowzer "Incest. I would think that most people are just naturally repulsed by the thought, much like homosexuality and other sexual oddities." Heres a question for you, shut up and stop being a homophobe" (the first bit is ok, it just isnt called a sexual oddity)

As long as there is no baby (but one genration of incest is unlikely to doo much) then it is fine, a baby wouldnt be acccepted by society. parent to child is just sick, but thats the age difference really.

Lemming3k
02-27-04, 04:10 PM
Adam and eve only proves incest is ok in the bible, adam and eve didnt exist in reality, incest isnt socially accepted, and its not common because opposites attract, opposites attracting is chemical attraction at its best, without knowing it we look for people genitically different from ourselves, the more different the better, its about reproduction and evolution, if you reproduce with someone from the same genepool you dont produce anything 'improved' if you reproduce with someone drastically different from yourself with different imunities, then you could produce a child with all of the adults immunities combined, you dont get that from incest.(as for gay incest its just not socially accepted)

SwedishFish
02-27-04, 04:30 PM
i'm conflicted here. beyond the biological/evolutionary factors preventing relatives from being attracted to each other there is a huge eww factor. but if someone else wants to do that and everyone involved is a consenting adult, then my saying eww is much like other things people do that people say eww to such as homosexuality. both are not evolutionarily sound but otherwise harmless (unless the related couple breeds-then we have problems). so i don't know where i'm going with this. i say eww but whatever floats your boat.
i think i'd throw up if the idea ever came up about committing incest with my brother.

rainbow__princess_4
02-29-04, 12:40 AM
incest and twincest is only frowned upon because there's the chance of children being born with fur... if you can guarentee there'd be no children then go for it. The only problem is the birth defects, otherwise it really doesn't matter.

sargentlard
02-29-04, 01:19 AM
incest and twincest is only frowned upon because there's the chance of children being born with fur... if you can guarentee there'd be no children then go for it. The only problem is the birth defects, otherwise it really doesn't matter.
Umm...birth defects show up after considerable procreation. The first crop is healthy and normal....and there is no fur. There is breakdown of gentic material, not mutation of it into unheard of traits.

rainbow__princess_4
03-04-04, 12:05 AM
Yup, i totally agree with daydream...

rainbow__princess_4
03-04-04, 12:07 AM
And also I didn't literally mean fur... and i know that its not instantaneous but surely you can see everyone's point? That if there's no kids then its no matter?

rainbow__princess_4
03-09-04, 02:24 AM
I was just wondering if it was wrong to think that because shes my SECOND cousin. But then again I do live in Kentucky, you guys know our saying "Incest is the best.".
Well in Australia it's common belief that Alabama is the incest/twincest state... in New Zealand it's Texas, in the USA it's Arkansas... so WHAT THE HELL IS THIS ABOUT KENTUCKY??!!!

alain
03-10-04, 05:51 AM
"Well in Australia it's common belief that Alabama is the incest/twincest state... in New Zealand it's Texas, in the USA it's Arkansas... so WHAT THE HELL IS THIS ABOUT KENTUCKY??!!!" yes, but in Australia, we also believe that New Zealand is the home of bestiality (in this case sheep)

rainbow__princess_4
03-12-04, 12:17 AM
YAH! LOVE THOSE SHEEP! and yeah, dammit! How can all these damn aussie's know about me and my kiwi pals without being there? hmmm... oh and also to everyone else on alain's behalf, it is ONLY in the case of sheep... WHAT ABOUT SWEDEN!

dandaldaks
12-28-11, 04:41 AM
I am 16 and I have you know, gotten with my sister once,
but the thing is people just say incest is bad, that being their only reason.
the more i think about it, the more i feel that they have nothing to back it up. Btw i am not talking about inpregnation, that would be weird, I am talking about just casual playing around

Bells
12-28-11, 08:07 AM
Firstly.. You join this forum and the first post you make is to tell us you have had sex with your sister in a thread that dates back to 2004?

Why?

So why is incest bad..

1) Depending on the differences in age between yourself and your sibling, it could be deemed child abuse (more to the point, child on child sexual abuse - is she old enough to consent? Were you old enough to consent when this, ermm, started)..

2) If she falls pregnant, well, just look up inbreeding and you would get a fair idea. You consider it "weird" if she became pregnant, but frankly, you would be lucky if it was just the pregnancy that was weird.

3) It's actually illegal.

4) I have to say it.. Dude, it's your sister..

kx000
01-07-12, 03:03 PM
Its bad because it breeds perversion. It makes fucked up children come out of the oven, and it gets out of control. Coming from someone who notes sexual desire from family members, me, and them being over 18 I still see it as wrong and immoral. Im a son, and a brother, not a sexy poster. Yes, me being ogled by my family makes me think the world is not worth it. The word is going to turn into a giant on going orgy where public executions are the norm, and ignorance runs rampid. This is post-faith, post-science,I call it The. FUTURE.

How can my mother think it is okay to desire me sexually? How is this positive towards my well being? Incest is selfish, ignorant, dangerous, immoral, and pestilent. How can one get a extra desire from someone merely because its a family member? Incestuous thoughts are a psychological issue.

Enmos
01-07-12, 05:28 PM
How can my mother think it is okay to desire me sexually?

:eek:
You are joking, right?

KilljoyKlown
01-07-12, 07:06 PM
I have to say this thread has brought out a larger selection of forum members than I've ever seen in any other thread before.

I feel like I should ask if anyone knows of any good incests stories? (or is that an oxymoron?)

The question I have, is most sexual child abuse incest? I would guess yes. That would mean that incest is not the primary motive in having sex with a family member, but an adult wanting sex with an easily accessible child.

Bowser
01-07-12, 09:04 PM
Knew a guy in the army who said he had boinked his sister when he was a kid. He couldn't understand my dismay when he he told me this. I'm not sure where people get the mentality that allows them to participate in such activity. Maybe it's more excusable when it involves two kids. I just don't know how they could look each other in the eye afterwards.

michael_taylor
01-07-12, 09:23 PM
Why is incest bad?

In general terms because populations who don't avoid incest are more prone to degenerating into sickly cretins, and are out-competed by the ones who do avoid it.

Unless you meant morally, in which case there are lots of different answers, crudely summed up by "because everyone says so".

KilljoyKlown
01-07-12, 09:31 PM
Knew a guy in the army who said he had boinked his sister when he was a kid. He couldn't understand my dismay when he he told me this. I'm not sure where people get the mentality that allows them to participate in such activity. Maybe it's more excusable when it involves two kids. I just don't know how they could look each other in the eye afterwards.

I never had a sister so I wouldn't know, and all my friends who had sisters all thought yuck! to that.

Shogun
01-07-12, 11:49 PM
I am 16 and I have you know, gotten with my sister once,
but the thing is people just say incest is bad, that being their only reason.
the more i think about it, the more i feel that they have nothing to back it up. Btw i am not talking about inpregnation, that would be weird, I am talking about just casual playing around

OMG! WHAT THE HELL?!

:facepalm:

Dude...she's your sister dammit!

That should be reason enough!

That's shouldn't be the first thing you post on ANY forum...

You know...life is not a Game of Thrones...

Shogun
01-07-12, 11:51 PM
I never had a sister so I wouldn't know, and all my friends who had sisters all thought yuck! to that.

I'd imagine it'll be like banging your best friend that's a girl that you grew up with? Well...100x the weirdness

No...just not something to do...

chimpkin
01-08-12, 11:04 PM
dandaldaks:
...but the thing is people just say incest is bad, that being their only reason.
the more i think about it, the more i feel that they have nothing to back it up...

Because after a few generations of inbreeding, your family will look like this:
http://weirdcrime.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Kirsty-and-Richard-Finlayson.jpg
Since the subject came up...I thought it was a great time for a repost of our happy couple! :puke:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/3792109/Brother-and-sister-in-lift-sex.html

Asguard
01-09-12, 12:36 AM
Chimpkin a) you DO realise those photos are designed to be as ugly as possible and b) do you want to post pics of you and your wife so that everyone can judge wether you are both atractive enough to be ina relationship?

Reiku
01-09-12, 12:58 AM
I'm shocked reading half of this.

Incestry is just wrong, period. I can almost accept a bit of fooling around at young ages... I guess it happens all the time. But full on sex, knowing what you are doing with a family member... I mean it just shouldn't be done. The very fact that all sorts of conditions can be obtained from inbreeding... I mean... It's natures way of telling us not to do this kind of thing!

Asguard
01-09-12, 01:00 AM
I'm shocked reading half of this.

Incestry is just wrong, period. I can almost accept a bit of fooling around at young ages... I guess it happens all the time. But full on sex, knowing what you are doing with a family member... I mean it just shouldn't be done. The very fact that all sorts of conditions can be obtained from inbreeding... I mean... It's natures way of telling us not to do this kind of thing!

Actually it was the mark of nobility until recently.

chimpkin
01-09-12, 01:21 AM
Chimpkin a) you DO realise those photos are designed to be as ugly as possible and b) do you want to post pics of you and your wife so that everyone can judge wether you are both atractive enough to be ina relationship?

We aren't breeding, or inbreeding, or related.
Nor are we having sex in elevators.
They are candid photos, yes.
But those two have That Innsmouth Look going on...
http://neomitosofia.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/the_innsmouth_look_by_vomitoryfecalius.jpg?w=450&h=210


I actually have no problem with ugly people having babies together.
Ugly blood relatives? Even pretty blood relatives? That's a problem.


Actually it was the mark of nobility until recently.

Yes. The Habsburgs ended due to inbreeding.

As a result of generations of Habsburg inbreeding, the House of Habsburg became extinct in the male line in the 18th century: The Spanish branch ended upon the death of Charles II in 1700 and was replaced by the Anjou branch of the House of Bourbon in the person of his great-nephew Philip V. The Austrian branch went extinct in the male person in 1740 with the death of Charles VI and in the female person in 1780 with the death of his daughter Maria Theresa and was succeeded by the Vaudemont branch of the House of Lorraine in the person of her son Joseph II. The new successor house styled itself formally as House of Habsburg-Lorraine (German: Habsburg-Lothringen), although it was often referred to as simply the House of Habsburg.
A lot of the rulers were insane, also.
I may be related to them...:o
Which would explain a few things.

Asguard
01-09-12, 01:28 AM
Umm you do realise that every young girls pin up boy (prince harry) comes from a family whos whole claim to fame is that they are fucking there relitives

chimpkin
01-09-12, 01:40 AM
Umm you do realise that every young girls pin up boy (prince harry) comes from a family whos whole claim to fame is that they are fucking there relitives

I only vaguely know who that is.
You know I stopped following news last year.
Some moderately decent-looking redhead kid whose claim to fame is getting born into the right family? think I've seen him while waiting to get rung up.
We kind of overthrew the monarchy here a long time ago.
What sauces the tacos of romantically-addled teenage girls doesn't concern me.

kx000
01-09-12, 02:05 PM
Umm you do realise that every young girls pin up boy (prince harry) comes from a family whos whole claim to fame is that they are fucking there relitives

Can I inherit the U.K. Im descended from Welsh nobility and im not inbred. :) Plus, im a bad man.

kx000
01-09-12, 02:07 PM
Actually it was the mark of nobility until recently.

No it was the mark of greed to keep all the wealth of the world doing whatever necessary including genocide, and incest. LULZ x Infinity

spidergoat
01-09-12, 03:06 PM
so whats wrong with screwing ur sister or parent or whatever if ur both over age?
Nothing.


i mean isnt it a matter of free choice?
It is, there is no US law against it.

Me-Ki-Gal
01-09-12, 03:31 PM
You can fuck em but can't marry them is what I understand . I think more people fuck there sisters than you all think . A thing like that people would not want it to get out as there secret love affair would be to much for public opinion .

Lots of people fuck there sister in the past as some of you pointed out . I will give you just one biblical account for bible buffers . Abraham . Yeah the great father of modern religion . He married his sister and fucked her . Yeah Issac is the proof he was fucking his sister . See early on in the story it tells how he told Pharaoh that she was his sister as to save his own life as her beauty was to irresistible for other men . He was afraid they would kill him and take his wife if they knew they were husband and wife . Well Pharaoh took to the lovely woman and was about to fucker when he found out she was Abraham wife also. So he didn't lie about her being his sister . This is made perfectly clear in the chapter as there was no punishment from God for one thing . The Pharaoh was punished for his lust-fulness which makes Me wonder if he real Fucked her or not . He might of fucked her and that is why the story reads in a mysterious way it does

kx000
01-09-12, 06:00 PM
Sister to save her life... Incestuous reproduction, and adultery are sins.

spidergoat
01-09-12, 06:03 PM
Who cares? Sin is just a religious thing. Reproduction is problematic, but activities between consensual adults is just fine.

kx000
01-09-12, 06:09 PM
Who cares? Sin is just a religious thing. Reproduction is problematic, but activities between consensual adults is just fine.

Incestuous reproduction is a terrible thing, and a sin holds weight on your soul, literally (or mind).

Ghostintheshell
01-09-12, 06:20 PM
Incest is one of the few acts that can be deemed "wrong" from a biological perspective. It weakens the gene pool and can lead to higher incidences of recessive traits being passed on. It decreases the reproductive fitness of the species as a whole; therefore it goes against what we are hardwired to do - reproduce whilst maintaining diversity and high fitness levels on a genetic level. Going against that is wrong, in the same way that sex with children is wrong - it serves no positive reproductive purpose and impacts negatively on the species as a whole (though in different ways).
Also, hello!

Ghostintheshell
01-09-12, 06:23 PM
Also to Knowledge91 - sin is just a religious concept but it can be applied to other areas. In this case incest could be deemed a sin against nature and against the future fitness of our offspring. In a sense this is the greatest sin available to us, as thats the thing we are really meant to guard against as a biological organism.

KilljoyKlown
01-09-12, 06:44 PM
Incest is one of the few acts that can be deemed "wrong" from a biological perspective. It weakens the gene pool and can lead to higher incidences of recessive traits being passed on. It decreases the reproductive fitness of the species as a whole; therefore it goes against what we are hardwired to do - reproduce whilst maintaining diversity and high fitness levels on a genetic level. Going against that is wrong, in the same way that sex with children is wrong - it serves no positive reproductive purpose and impacts negatively on the species as a whole (though in different ways).
Also, hello!

I've heard there is usually not much of a problem with first generation incest babies, but if incest continues in second, third and fourth generation incest we start getting less survivable humans.

At one time in our human past when our species almost didn't make it, it was estimated there were only a few thousand humans left in the world. So the gene pool was very tight and there must have been lots of incest or next closest thing to it.

Is it possible that many of the characteristic differences in the races we have today got that way because of lots of inbreeding during that close call with extinction?

spidergoat
01-09-12, 06:52 PM
Incest doesn't automatically lead to reproduction. You might as well argue that people with genetic defects should also not have sex.

Ghostintheshell
01-09-12, 07:14 PM
@Killjoy - What time in our past do you mean? I'm afraid i dont know enough about that instance to comment on it but i'll look it up.

But i don't think that characteristic racial differences occurred due to inbreeding - i think that it was a gradual environmental effect on the peoples living in various ecological niches. For example more black people are taller an thinner than northern europeans - this is to do with surface area and body heat (Small, stout people lose body heat at a slower rate and vice versa for tall, thin people.)




@Spider - Incest may not lead to reproduction but the entire act is one of a reproductive nature. Thats why the act exists, why it feels good and why it dominates most of our concious and unconcious thoughts throughout any given day. I thought it was not unreasonable to equate the two. But when you look at someone you want to have sex with its most likely because messages are being sent to your brain and body along the lines of "that person would make a good other half to help produce my progeny".

That is not always the case of course, as we are capable of out-thinking our bodies sometimes but when you get down to it we are still very much animals and those reproductive signals are the same in humans and other mammals alike.

I dont agree with "You might as well argue that people with genetic defects should also not have sex. " People can have sex with whomever they want as long as its consensual, i am a great proponent of personal freedom etc. and would never stand in the way of something like that. Whether people with genetic defects should have CHILDREN is a different matter.

I can see what you mean but i am thinking more about the reasons behind the act and the possible consequences of such an act as opposed to the act itself. The act itself, in isolation, without consequence or a reason behind it that contradicts reproductive fitness, i guess would not be "wrong" but that situation can not exist.

KilljoyKlown
01-09-12, 07:16 PM
Incest doesn't automatically lead to reproduction. You might as well argue that people with genetic defects should also not have sex.

We are not hard up for people now, so rounding them all up for forced sterilization sounds good to me. <Just kidding>:D

KilljoyKlown
01-09-12, 07:21 PM
@Killjoy - What time in our past do you mean? I'm afraid i don't know enough about that instance to comment on it but I'll look it up.

But i don't think that characteristic racial differences occurred due to inbreeding - i think that it was a gradual environmental effect on the peoples living in various ecological niches. For example more black people are taller an thinner than northern Europeans - this is to do with surface area and body heat (Small, stout people lose body heat at a slower rate and vice versa for tall, thin people.)

I don't know if they all were but the stuff like the characteristic Jewish nose for instance?

pink:noise
01-09-12, 07:54 PM
Incest is one of the few acts that can be deemed "wrong" from a biological perspective.And "wrong" from an intellectual point-of-view.

Observing healthy family members—not dysfunctional ones—interact together, I've come to notice the odd bond not shared with outsiders. There's a surprisingly sophisticated sense of civility towards the members of their unit. It's really really odd to me.

There's a sort of respect among them that isn't forced nor even observed but rather defined in gesture, like an impulse.

There's never really any true loneliness, even when hundreds of miles apart—like a psychic presence, a soft armchair placed in a reserved corner of the mind.

There's agreement. Even in discord they agree to disagree. Or simply disagree very agreeably.

There's good will between them, and they all enjoy a good family get-together, doing simple things like roasting marshmallows over a camp fire and laughing over their exploits with the outside world. I bet discussing the strange topic of incest by outsiders (who else, right?) would produce hollers of laughter amongst them—they're that solid.

Ghostintheshell
01-09-12, 08:33 PM
@ Killjoy - i dont know about the "characteristic Jewish nose", i heard somewhere that images of people with crooked noses and such actually originated from fear of old people. Back in the day when life expecancy was not so high - old people were rare and unusual to see. When you stop growing in young adulthood, your cartilage continues to grow which give old people disproportionate nose and ear size.
When this was rare it was naturally not well understood, which brings about fear, fear of the unknown. As time went on the attribute of a crooked nose was given to "evil" types like witches and other "public enemies" of any given time - like people from arabian descent, or Jewish people.

I don't think that there is much truth in it to be honest, i know many people with crooked noses that are not Jewish and none of the Jewish people i know have crooked noses. Its possible that once a stereotype is established that it then becomes easier to notice. For example if one Jew in a hundred had the crooked nose, you may notice it and think "Jew with a crooked nose! How stereotypical!" even though there are far more exceptions to this "rule" than actual adherences to the "rule".

kx000
01-09-12, 09:10 PM
I'll give you a hint. Sin is something that holds weight on your "soul."

Ghostintheshell
01-09-12, 09:19 PM
So "sin" is entirely subjective. Or even, if you dont give it weight then its not a sin? True, but for the purposes of any kind of debate regarding morality i think its prudent to not bring up the whole subjectivity of morality unless its in a thread of its own, otherwise we will go round in a (small) circle.

Reiku
01-10-12, 01:56 AM
Actually it was the mark of nobility until recently.

I don't know of any cases of English monarchs were their father pumped their daughter, or gave their son a hand job.

I know the Royal Lines kept their relations very close and a lot of problems arose from this. The reason why they did it was because they saw themselves like the Gods... The Gods did it with other Gods, so why not royals?

Pointless straw man though. Whether the nobles did it or not is not the point. It's simply wrong, and anyone in an adulthood doing that kind of thing should be ashamed. Your parents, brothers or sisters are not there for fuck buddies. As I said before, the conditions which can account for many ranges of birth defects is natures way of saying DON'T DO IT.

Reiku
01-10-12, 01:59 AM
Umm you do realise that every young girls pin up boy (prince harry) comes from a family whos whole claim to fame is that they are fucking there relitives

Yes, it did happen. Not Father on daughter no less, or mother on son.

I don't know if any sisters and brothers did it. I guess it would not have been unheard of. Needless to say, it is wrong still, whether royals thought that was ''just'' back then. As I said, they considered themselves as Gods, so they applied to rules of the Gods on them too.

Reiku
01-10-12, 02:01 AM
Of course, not only did they see themselves as Gods, but it was also a way to keep the money in the family.

Asguard
01-10-12, 02:16 AM
In your opinon, my opinion is based on the "consenting adults" and "none of my buisness" type

kx000
01-10-12, 03:03 AM
Incestuous reproduction is my concern. I don't even want the slimmest chance of a incestuanus getting mixed up in my blood line.

Reiku
01-10-12, 04:34 AM
Incestuous reproduction is my concern. I don't even want the slimmest chance of a incestuanus getting mixed up in my blood line.

Agreed.

Bells
01-10-12, 04:53 AM
In your opinon, my opinion is based on the "consenting adults" and "none of my buisness" type

Incesteous relationships, even between "consenting adults" has a level of power imbalance in the relationship. A sexual relationship between a parent and their adult child is one that is, well, fucked up for lack of a better term. The relationship will never be 'equal'. And it is damaging. It warps what that adult child, for example, will believe is a normal relationship with one's parent(s).

And that can lead to their having some difficulty in forming actual relationships with other people. Or adapting in those relationships.

Asguard
01-10-12, 07:09 AM
Bells a)not all are parent child and b) acording to someone the other day on another site, any relationship involving a man and women has such a power inbalance as to be rape.

Bells
01-10-12, 09:31 AM
Bells a)not all are parent child and b) acording to someone the other day on another site, any relationship involving a man and women has such a power inbalance as to be rape.

a) That power imbalance could very apply to any familial relationship. But it goes further than that. Some suggest it is taboo for a valid reason (http://www.livescience.com/4363-kinship-detectors-prevent-incest-cases.html).

b) That someone may have some issues.

darksidZz
01-10-12, 09:58 AM
I can only say i was attracted to a cousin but it looses meaning after awhile. i hhave never though my sister was pleasing ad the thought of her dating ssicckens me lol ahem

Kittamaru
01-10-12, 10:26 AM
If ABSOLUTELY nothing else (and I'm playing devils advocate here), incest is bad due to the lack of genetic variance... after all, look at the issues that crop up when in-breeding occurs.

Asguard
01-10-12, 04:12 PM
a) That power imbalance could very apply to any familial relationship. But it goes further than that. Some suggest it is taboo for a valid reason (http://www.livescience.com/4363-kinship-detectors-prevent-incest-cases.html).

b) That someone may have some issues.

To the second i agree whole heartedly (one of the most insulting statements i have ever read for BOTH genders)

to the second your article could just as well be about homosexuality you know

oh and about power imbalances, one word for you S&M

spidergoat
01-10-12, 04:17 PM
That's two words.

spidergoat
01-10-12, 04:19 PM
I'll give you a hint. Sin is something that holds weight on your "soul."

Mostly due to the guilt trip placed on you by those who invented the word.

Asguard
01-10-12, 04:22 PM
That's two words.

Actually technically its 3 but its one acronim

quadraphonics
01-10-12, 04:53 PM
Incesteous relationships, even between "consenting adults" has a level of power imbalance in the relationship.

Not to defend incest, but there are power imbalances in all relationships. It is unclear whether equality is necessary or even conducive to stable, satisfied relationships.

Bells
01-10-12, 06:34 PM
To the second i agree whole heartedly (one of the most insulting statements i have ever read for BOTH genders)

to the second your article could just as well be about homosexuality you know

No actually, it could not. The article mentions what they call a "kinship detector". This is not about homosexuality, for a simple reason:


The research suggest humans automatically and unconsciously gauge the relatedness of people they meet beginning from a young age. People use at least two separate and obvious cues to determine whether someone is a brother or sister: If an individual is younger than us, we unconsciously observe how much time they’ve spent with our mothers; if they are older, we note how long we’ve lived with them.

What we do with that information was not so obvious until the new study was done.

If through this process we conclude that an individual is a sibling, then three things happen: We’re more inclined to go the extra mile for them; our yuck-factor at the thought of even making out with them shoots up; and our aversion to sibling-incest increases.


http://www.livescience.com/4363-kinship-detectors-prevent-incest-cases.html



I'll put it this way.. How many of you were actively taught by your parents that you should not be attracted to your sibling or to another close relative? And if you were not, where does your aversion to wanting to have sex with a close relative of yours come from?



oh and about power imbalances, one word for you S&M
S&M is voluntary. In other words, both participants enter into the relationship or begin S&M because that is what gets them off.


Not to defend incest, but there are power imbalances in all relationships. It is unclear whether equality is necessary or even conducive to stable, satisfied relationships.
I am not saying that is not the case. What I am saying is that the power imbalance in incesteous relationships bears further weight because of the familial relationship that is already in place. And if we have an alleged in built aversion to incest, is there a 'grooming' factor to bypass it in the first place? I think the study is interesting but it does open up a whole can of worms.

For example, Asguard discusses that if it is between two consenting adults, then it is no one's business. And he may be right. But when I read that and then consider the findings in this study, I have to wonder if it is possible or probable if some level of grooming takes place when one is from a very young age to make them think it is acceptable by the time they become adults.

Because by the time we are adults, we will usually be going 'omfg ewww' at the thought of bonking a relative. How is that disgust factor bypassed? Or does the actual relationship start from a very young age?

Asguard
01-10-12, 06:38 PM
Bells if you go back to the start of the thread it was about 2 twins which were sepratated at a young age because the dad took one to the US and they started dating without even knowing they were related

James R
01-10-12, 07:39 PM
Umm you do realise that every young girls pin up boy (prince harry) comes from a family whos whole claim to fame is that they are fucking there relitives

No.

Their claim to fame is that they are the Royal Family of the United Kingdom.

Bells
01-10-12, 10:57 PM
Bells if you go back to the start of the thread it was about 2 twins which were sepratated at a young age because the dad took one to the US and they started dating without even knowing they were related

Yes, I am well aware of the OP. However, it is very rare for something like this to happen. My posts, as I had assumed would have been fairly obvious, was about general incest and not very rare occurences such as that in the OP.

Orleander
01-11-12, 03:43 PM
Incesteous relationships, even between "consenting adults" has a level of power imbalance in the relationship. ...

But what about the consenting relationships between Hawaiian, Egyptian, etc royalty?

Bells
01-11-12, 05:38 PM
But what about the consenting relationships between Hawaiian, Egyptian, etc royalty?

What about them?

Do you assume that because they were 'royalty', no such power imbalance was present in the relationship? That the relationship was not skewed by the familial relationship in the first place?

Tiassa
01-12-12, 11:36 AM
Do you assume that because they were 'royalty', no such power imbalance was present in the relationship? That the relationship was not skewed by the familial relationship in the first place?

But that's so complicated!

The idea of relations between humans, according to the pro-incest argument, is extremely simple. That is, people are people are people.

The idea that pre-existing family relationships might affect authority roles between lovers is more complicated.

And "love"? Well, "love" shouldn't be complicated. You know, storybooks and all that. Happily ever after. I mean, no faery-tale lovers ever had a fight about anything after the end of the story. Not Snow White and Prince Charming, nor Ariel and Prince Whateverhisnameis, and so on. Edward and Vivian, Joe and Kathleen ... I don't recall, were Harry and Sally supposed to have a happily ever after?

Reality is much more complicated, m'kay?

To the other, in matters of incest, I agree with P.J. O'Rourke: Having sex with a sibling only reminds that one is too pathetic to get a real date, and parents should never screw their own children except in their last will and testament.

So, you know, maybe I'm just unfairly biased against these closed-system lovers.