View Full Version : whites more evolved?


OverTheStars
08-06-04, 10:23 PM
I was laying in bed last night, and a thought occured to me. Are white people

more evolved than black people? Or are black people the stronger race?

Please give me your opinions, and any facts you may have on this.

TruthSeeker
08-06-04, 10:57 PM
Well... if you are talking just about their skin color, then the black are more evolved. The whites are just too weak with sunlight - they need to be more careful.

If you are speaking of a matter of intelligence and this kind of stuff... then I guess this would be just racism...

Repo Man
08-06-04, 11:58 PM
Oh crap, not again.

White people are white because as humans moved to norther latitudes, the melanin blocks the sunlight needed for vitamin D synthesis.

Groups of Homo Sapiens that have been in more southern climates in recent geological time have adapted to the higher number of sunny days a year, and increased intensity of sunlight in lower latitudes. There is plenty of strong light for vitamin D synthesis, and the melanin is necessary to protect the skin from sunburn.

There has been no proven correlation between intelligence and the skins melanin content (or lack thereof).

philocrazy
08-07-04, 12:04 AM
he's speaking about the skin repo man dont you get anything
in your thick scull inteligence



Philosopher Philocrazy

philocrazy
08-07-04, 12:30 AM
OverTheStars (quote)
I was laying in bed last night, and a thought occured to me. Are white people

more evolved than black people? Or are black people the stronger race?

Please give me your opinions, and any facts you may have on this.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Miss overthestars i am Philosopher Philocrazy may i answear
thank you, listen how do you like the facts, western,eastern,
etc cause the facts are so widespread over the moon
basicly you do like to feel superior to yourself dont you
yes yes yes but yourself is not black people you see, you
have to find out for youself,please say to your friends that the
great Philosopher Philocrazy gave you a nice philosophical
answear on this thought

Philosopher Philocrazy

Tracker00
08-07-04, 02:03 PM
here we go, social darwinism all over again

guthrie
08-07-04, 02:42 PM
What is it about this kind of topic that seems to get lots of people saying "Hey, I'm mad and ignorant"

OverTheStars
08-07-04, 03:15 PM
You know what? Never mind! Close this damn thread, it was a pretty simple question, and everyone seems to be having problems understanding it. I'm not talking about skin color at all.

nirakar
08-07-04, 03:50 PM
"You know what? Never mind! Close this damn thread, it was a pretty simple question, and everyone seems to be having problems understanding it. I'm not talking about skin color at all."


What were you talking about? Intelectual strength, athletic strength, immune system strenth, cultural superiority? I assume you are a racist; but that does not mean that anti-racists are well served by ducking your question or ridiculing your question.

Keep in mind that England and Germany were far more primative and backwards than most of the world as recently as 2000 years ago. People in Papua New Guinea have gone from stone age to space age in one generation. So don't think that the temporary state of a peoples culture is any reflection on genetic superiority or inferiority.

Child abuse is past down through families. Certain social disfunctions caused by slavery and racism may be passed down through the families that were victims of those situations even after racism has ended. Racism has not ended yet. American whites do not know how being black in America can still screw with a person. So if many American blacks are not yet able to compete equally in the economy, don't judge the African races for that. If American blacks had achieved equality already despite what their families had gone through, then we would have had proof that blacks were superior to whites.

Beware of junk science on all issues that are emotionally charged.

kriminal99
08-08-04, 09:20 AM
Racism (or at least willingness to consider differences in race) does not equal immaturity, ignorance, shallowness, or unobjectivity.

In fact refusal to face the possibility demonstrates these things just as well as some redneck idiot who hates himself and tries to constantly attack black people to feel better.

All poorly reasoned arguments against race even existing aside, let me ask a question here. If it were THE TRUTH, undeniable reality that one race was in general more intelligent than another would most members of the less intelligent race be able to deal with it? Probably not in this day and age.

But to answer the posters question, I think that the real problem with trying to determine this is that the question involves an invalid implied part of the definition of superiority. It implies that one race would be better at everything than the other.

There is no one design of a human being that would allow them to succeed in every goal. Right now we don't even know what intelligence really is, yet we are running around trying to determine who has more of it. We do for silly human emotional reasons. In reality intelligence handicaps of a certain race might be easily dealt with by some kind of drug, or one day we might discover that what we previously considered intelligence (perhaps the speed of which are unconsious mind removes invalid relations) is no longer relevant in the face of some new logic system which allows us to never create invalid relations to begin with. (less use of metaphors, similies, and other methods of forming implied definitions)

In the meantime it might be that intelligence is on a scale that on one side contains total lack of emotion yet high intelligence and the other low intelligence but very strong emotion. You can't really say one side is better than the other in such a case. The point being it is certainly nothing to worry about until we know what intelligence really is.

eddymrsci
08-08-04, 10:11 AM
I agree with Repo Man, and would like to add that there is no such thing as race, all Caucasoids and Negroids and Mongloids are of the same species - Homo Sapiens. how could we define "race", there is no such thing as "pure race". and people in different regions of the planet possess those unique physical traits for their unique geographic reasons. we are all equally evolved, to the geographic region we live in.

eM0912
08-08-04, 11:28 AM
i don't think that the question had anything to do with prejudice or racism. i think that the people who brought it up as such could quite possibly be prejudice or racism, as they say, "it takes one to know one" the original question was simply a question and if we, as humans(not black or white or any other color) can't look at an innocent question without flaring anger and resentment how are we going to create a world where we can live in peace.

she asked for an opinion and here's mine.

this is from a western civ class that i took a few semesters ago:
in the beginning all humans were black, when they started to migrate they had to adapt to variations in the sunlight and so some become white as they moved further away from the equator and some grew darker as they moved closer so that their skin would protect them. as for the more evolved, you would have to assume that white people had to evolve further, if you consider the fact that their skin changed from black to white evolution. now in no way is that prejudiced or racial, it's science whether or not you choose to believe it is your problem not mine. as for intelligence, that is in an individual trait, it can be passed on through the parents or a person can make themselves intelligent. it is believed that a person can only get so far in intelligence though and that peak is afforded by genetics.

as for everyone who got angry and mad, you do have to realize that the entire question revolved around one thing. OPINION. not fact.

James R
08-08-04, 11:26 PM
There is no such thing as "more evolved". Evolution is directionless. Is a bacterium "less evolved" than a human being? Since the bacteria have been around for much longer than humans, they have had much longer to evolve, so it seems that bacteria, if anything, should be "more evolved" than humans.

Black and white people both descended from the same common ancestor, so I guess that makes them equally evolved, if you want to use a silly term like that.

ripleofdeath
08-10-04, 11:24 AM
OverTheStars
good on you for posting in the human science thread, but you did not escape the loonies :D
guthrie put it soo well

basicly to answer your question , it has been almost answered above,
but, because of the huge inequality of living conditions and wars different cultures have developed at different rates and in ways that has been determined by the type of wars and the type of religions present in that country.

if you do a little cross comparrison of different ancient cultures you will see there is many varing types of intellegent evolution in some ways , but always has gone backwards with war.
where ever you have the most stable living conditions and peacefull society .. then there is where the greater amount of intellegence will be able to thrive and evolve.
:)

rel
08-15-04, 03:43 AM
Survival of the fittest, the white race is slowly becoming minority and dying out :P Interracial marriage/babies also adds to the extinction :P

Roman
08-17-04, 12:02 AM
OvertheStars, I've also wondered this myself, or at least if there is truth in racism. However, I quickly shun it because of what it has justified, and what it could. I am no advocate for racism. With that said, allow me to engage in some armchair exo-biology.

If natural selection, through the environment, caused a change in skin color (as stated numerously in this thread), could not it cause changes in behaviour and attitude?

For instance, domestic dogs are recognized as one species, yet there are many breeds. Some breeds are more loyal, some breeds smarter, faster, stronger, etc. The different breeds' characteristics have been brought about through both natural selection and human selection. Domestic dogs can and do breed with wolves, but any breeder will tell you that they have intrinsically different personalities.

It is also recognized that different groups of people have changed physically to suit their environs, and moreso than just skin color. Eskimos tend to put on weight quickly because of their harsh environs. Native Americans are more easily alcoholics, supposed because their genetic exposure to alcohol through agriculture has been much shorter than Westerners.

Since these environmental factors cause physical changes, it is not implausible to reason that different groups of people will exhibit different strength and weaknesses based on their ancestry.

However, there are multiple reasons for alcoholism, including a loss of cultural identity. A change in cultural values (traditionally subsistence lifestyle culture shocked with MaterialTV and gasoline) in small villages leads to boredom and depression. Boredom and depression are the harbingers of Jim Beam.

Progress, as measured by Americans and Westeners is generally dependent upon ability to wage war and economic superiority. The rate of agricultural discovery and accomplishment is dependent on environment, and ultimately the shape of the continent masses. The Old World had a lot more stuff to domesticate than the New, as well a larger, more hospitable biome. For a much better explanation, check out Jared Dimond's "Guns, Germs and Steel."

People are very complex, and denying an entire group of people rights or the chance at fair work and pay based soley on their ancestry is entirely unfair. Because of the millions of factors that play into our personalities, one is just as likely to find a greedy Christian as a greedy Jew, a lazy white vs a lazy Mexican, and so forth and so on.

Are whites more evolved? Are you asking if they are superior, and if so, in what context? Genetically, whites could be more evolved in several ways than say, New Zealanders, and vice versa. However, as evolution is entirely subjective to environment, racial "superiority" doesn't make much sense. Jesse Ownes outran Hitler's super-aryans.

And then, you're ignoring the nurture/society/culture part of one's personality.

nirakar
08-17-04, 07:19 PM
If aliens or a Hitler or oligarchy decided to breed humans into a variety of strange and diverse breeds the way humans have breed dogs then I have no doubt they could create very real and obvious physical and psychological differences between the various breeds of humans. I don't see obvious psychological differences between the human races.

We take 12 years to reach breeding age and dogs take what, two years? Breeding humans would take longer.

el_tino
08-17-04, 08:25 PM
In response to the original question: No.

alexanderkarelin
08-22-04, 01:01 PM
whites are much stronger than blacks, in terms of physical strength. this is well known and has been proven in weight lifting, world's strongest man events, etc. The world's strongest man currently is a polish guy named Mariusz Pudzianowski.

http://www.pudzian.pl/

John Entine, a well known author on the subject, wrote "Whites of Eurasian ancestry...have stronger upper bodies."

http://www.jonentine.com/reviews/national_post_2001.htm

ripleofdeath
08-22-04, 10:46 PM
alexanderkarelin
your post made me think of the potential truth within your comment and i found that
what you have highlighted is evolution but not nessesarily equal to the concept of MORE evolved,
as it would be fair to use as a contrast the idea behind this concept.
1 it seems african men have ruled the marathons for a good length of time as far as consistantcy is concerned,
and one could summise this to be relative to selective breeding along with basic evolution.
2 whites as you use the term could be relative to central europe as an example and where modes of transport have been used in part of evolution through trade routes, selectively combined with the mediaval age where armour and sword use was seen to be a most desirable and potential evolutionary breeding goal.

so in genralised brief conclusion it would be fair to say that both have evolved, just in different ways, leaving the orriginal question still standing in question of terms and specifics.
without taking into effect the DE-Evolution of certain societys and cultures through war i suspect there is no real difference in human development once defined by genral terms where trade between cultures is established to be a fair point of intergration of localised knolledge.

James R
08-22-04, 10:51 PM
whites are much stronger than blacks, in terms of physical strength.

And blacks run faster. So what?

Facial
08-22-04, 11:13 PM
James R is right. Evolution is directionless.

Medicine*Woman
08-23-04, 05:53 AM
*************
M*W: I overheard a conversation between two middle-aged or older black men on a city bus discussing where blacks came from and where whites came from. One black man told the other that only the blacks evolved from the apes, but white man came from the stars and interbred with black women. This man's premise was that blacks inherit the earth, while whites have been trying to take the earth from blacks, which blacks originally owned. He said, Adam and Eve were black, but the whites came down from a star civilization, so whites, technically, don't own the earth. He went on to say that white people didn't "evolve" with the blacks, the white people "interrupted" the black man's evolution!

I don't think it is as simple as that, but I'm just quoting what that black man said. Any comments out there?

Dreamwalker
08-23-04, 06:11 AM
Regarding the post of MW I would say that some people should not drink too much alcohol...

Medicine*Woman
08-23-04, 08:38 AM
Dreamwalker: Regarding the post of MW I would say that some people should not drink too much alcohol...
*************
M*W: What are you saying, Dreamwalker? I quoted what I heard on public transportation. I found their conversation to be interesting, but I was not a part of it. I had no idea that black folks were of that opinion. Not surprisingly, Native Americans do to.No one was drinking alcohol at the time. I don't understand your comment.

Blue_UK
08-23-04, 08:53 AM
(Fact / Main Point / Random Opinion / Speculation / Inference)

As mentioned, it is meaningless to ask "Which race is more evolved" without specifying selective criteria. I should point out that racism is the occurance of prejudiced with regard to race. Prejudice implies bias without foundation. This discuassion is not racist.

I should correct a former poster that 'in the begining' we were not all black (or at least black as we know it). The race that lived in africa was a common ancestor and not comparable with a modern black.

In terms of brute strength I think it has been shown that blacks are faster, bigger and stronger. So it is important to state clearly which criteria you are going to rate a particular 'breed' of humans on.

I would rate humans based on inteligence, as that is the reason for our technological boom and immence power over any other species. Of course, some would argue that viruses, mosquitos etc. are more numerous and are at the top of the food chain - but we can actively adapt to our enviroment and they depend completely on their immediate genetic given attributes. Inteligence is clearly man's best friend.

Nirakar, From my perspective, although the English and the Germans were primative 2000 years ago compared to the orientals, in that time they have created and/or seeded almost everything that you see today. I am particulally fond of orientals my self, they are a hardworking and highly productive 'race'.

Music, I believe, plays an interesting role here. Observe the particular tastes of music exhibited by members of the different 'races'. I would like to know if there is a direct relationship between race and music preference and if there a relationship between inteligence and musical preferance. The answer to this could simply be culture alone, but I am so moved by the complex and deep works of Mozart and to some extent, orchestral music in general that I believe there must be some intellectual quality in choice of appreciation. Conversly, rap music consists of repetative percussion, a simple base line and some 'poetry' spoken over the top. Often having arrogant or aggresive content and tone.

Back to genetics more specifically. The evolution of species (or sub groups of them) is directed by the selective pressures present. Perhaps in northern, cooler climates where farming is easier more time was available for the development of tools and techniques. Without the necessity of being big and strong the ratio of selective pressures is altered (bare in mind that the enviroments that humans evolved in are radically different than the ones we live in today - Richard Dawkins).

nirakar
08-23-04, 01:22 PM
Blue_UK Music, I believe, plays an interesting role here. Observe the particular tastes of music exhibited by members of the different 'races'. I would like to know if there is a direct relationship between race and music preference and if there a relationship between inteligence and musical preferance. The answer to this could simply be culture alone, but I am so moved by the complex and deep works of Mozart and to some extent, orchestral music in general that I believe there must be some intellectual quality in choice of appreciation. Conversly, rap music consists of repetative percussion, a simple base line and some 'poetry' spoken over the top. Often having arrogant or aggresive content and tone.


Interesting idea but......
I am from of English German Sweedish ancestry from NJ and MA. John and Agnes Wheeler are the Great x Grand parents of me, five of my least favorite presidents including Bush, and about one million more Americans.

More than sevnty percent of the people on this earth are descended from Isaac and Abraham if they actually existed. The average American black is more than one quarter European and or native American.

If you really love music you will love all music except Rap and Frank Sinatra; at least thats my experience. Strange musical styles are aquired tastes like beer, coffee, and moldy European cheeses.

I love the music comming out of Western and Southern Africa. It may be the worlds best music. You don't hear much of it in America because we Americans whether black or white don't play much of anything without English lyrics. The music comming out of Africa is as close to American Blue Grass as it is to any other kind of music that I am familiar with. It also vaguely resembles Cuban Jazz and Dixieland. It has no resemblance to Rap.

I lived in India for a year and like their music. I love Arab music. I love Russian Jewish music. Chinese music is a bit hard for me to get into. I love Blues, Funk, Dixieland and Raggae which are all from western hemisphere blacks.

Most of the European Classical music does not do much for me. I prefer my mental games to come in forms other than music so I don't care for certain froms of Jazz where I feel the musicians are trying to be impressive as musicians rather than trying to send me into an estatic trance rollercoaster ride.

If music was about race shouldn't I like the Northwest European music more than I do. It's not just me that takes to foreign music as easily as we take to Chow Mein. So, no I don't think music has much of anything to do with race. Music might have something to do with spoken language. Somehow the Chinese language and Chinese music seem to belong together.

I do think your right about mental state or personality having an impact on what types of music you naturaly gravitate to. I don't know that it is exactly intelegence. There are so many kinds of intelegence. One type of people who get on my nerve are those who sacrifice the possibility of having original thoughts and really being intelegent just to spend their lives working the look of being intelegent and saying the kind of things that they think intelegent people say. In my opinion some music is like the Mona Lisa, not as sophisticated as those trying to look smart think it is and seriously over rated art.

Rap makes sense with in the context of being black in America and in the context of teenage rebellion always looking for something that the older generation can't stand. Just imagine that you feel like a peice of dirt vulnerable to all kinds of physical abuse and unlovable. Now shout I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I am not not vulnerable at all in fact I am down right scarry, You all should be scared of me because I am huge and indestructable like a monster. I am lovable, I am a superstud and women will degrade themself to be with me if I want them to because I am what every woman desperately wants. It helps unemployable young men ease the pain.

If they would get more honest about their pain the way Al Green and Janis Joplin did, and get a little more musical then I could get into it. Working the studly anger look is so juvenile, whether it is the Rappers strutting, John Wayne swaggering or my cousin George Bush smirking out his tough talk.

Now to get deeply flakey: Don't rule out the trees rocks mountain and water as influences on the music and the language. Sometimes I almost feel like the earth speaks and it speaks differently in different places.

Dreamwalker
08-23-04, 02:27 PM
Dreamwalker: Regarding the post of MW I would say that some people should not drink too much alcohol...
*************
M*W: What are you saying, Dreamwalker? I quoted what I heard on public transportation. I found their conversation to be interesting, but I was not a part of it. I had no idea that black folks were of that opinion. Not surprisingly, Native Americans do to.No one was drinking alcohol at the time. I don't understand your comment.

Well, my comment did aim at the abstruse and strange ideas contained in the conversation you witnessed. I am of the opinion that such ideas can be created by mind altering drugs since I found them to be somewhat ridiculous.

Medicine*Woman
08-23-04, 02:44 PM
Dreamwalker: Well, my comment did aim at the abstruse and strange ideas contained in the conversation you witnessed. I am of the opinion that such ideas can be created by mind altering drugs since I found them to be somewhat ridiculous.
*************
M*W: Okay, I understand now, and I agree with you. At first I thought you may have misinterpreted that it was a conversation I had overhead and not my own ideas. But since you understood that, I apologize.

The two older black fellows were talking religion, and I didn't start eavesdropping until they got into the evolution thing. I don't know if this is an individual belief or if it is what the black folks generally believe. It was quite an interesting conversation they were having, but in this case, I don't think it was from taking mind-altering drugs. It just amazed me that they believed blacks and whites evolved separately and by two different methods. The point of their conversation, however, was that blacks will inherit the earth because white man didn't come from here, we came from some black ho in space.

Blue_UK
08-24-04, 05:13 AM
Nirakar,
My real point with regard to music was one I made in another related thread. Why had white culture accelerated so far ahread of mud huts and drums? This is true to some extent of oriental culture, which had also moved on. Obviously we are in a decline due to the presence of degenerate influences such as bling culture, rap (revenge for slavery) and liberalism. A little extreme I know, maybe rap is more of a symptom. No one can dispute the greater glory of white northern european culture.

So you don't like classical music? Well, you listen to the Die Zauberflote overture and tell me again you don't! I appreciate there are blaggers who claim to like and 'understand' pieces of popular art just to appear socially elite but I assure you I'm not one of them.


I love the music comming out of Western and Southern Africa. It may be the worlds best music. You don't hear much of it in America because we Americans whether black or white don't play much of anything without English lyrics. The music comming out of Africa is as close to American Blue Grass as it is to any other kind of music that I am familiar with. It also vaguely resembles Cuban Jazz and Dixieland. It has no resemblance to Rap.
- I'll give it a try if you give me a link.

On a side note, I do like mouldy European cheese and I'm sure you're right about the trees/water etc. I imagine the enviroment influences one's mood and hence musical preference. Also, my genetic make-up is (in order of most to least) Scottish, English, welsh, German and French (Well, one of my ancestors defended the Alamo so perhaps a touch more Eng or Ger as well).

Some of the finist genes in the world, wouldn't you agree? (with a touch of welsh, unfortunatly).

Naomi
08-24-04, 08:11 AM
Exactly the intelligent query to be expected from someone with a "bukkake fetish". :rolleyes:

shadarlocoth
08-24-04, 08:47 AM
Its not about white or black or brown or yellow or pink or green 8)


what it is about is how you are raised.

If you are raised to be a white skater that thinks its ok to do drugs and drink and partie all the time. And all you do is skate though life hehehe..

or your a black hip hop gangsta all slizzaling the wizzaling with whats up my nizzal... you are just as much of a wast of space.


The key is education if we swiched it around and blacks where all going to collage everyone of them then guess what if they would act like white people. Talk like white people. I don't have a problem with educated blacks. I have a problems with uneducated mad black and uneducated white's mexicans and what ever else thinks that they need more and dont want to put out the effort to get it.

StarOfEight
08-24-04, 10:00 AM
Nirakar,
My real point with regard to music was one I made in another related thread. Why had white culture accelerated so far ahread of mud huts and drums? This is true to some extent of oriental culture, which had also moved on. Obviously we are in a decline due to the presence of degenerate influences such as bling culture, rap (revenge for slavery) and liberalism. A little extreme I know, maybe rap is more of a symptom. No one can dispute the greater glory of white northern european culture.

So you don't like classical music? Well, you listen to the Die Zauberflote overture and tell me again you don't! I appreciate there are blaggers who claim to like and 'understand' pieces of popular art just to appear socially elite but I assure you I'm not one of them.


- I'll give it a try if you give me a link.

On a side note, I do like mouldy European cheese and I'm sure you're right about the trees/water etc. I imagine the enviroment influences one's mood and hence musical preference. Also, my genetic make-up is (in order of most to least) Scottish, English, welsh, German and French (Well, one of my ancestors defended the Alamo so perhaps a touch more Eng or Ger as well).

Some of the finist genes in the world, wouldn't you agree? (with a touch of welsh, unfortunatly).

Huh? According to the Romans, you'd be a fucking barbarbian. A chest-painting savage, unable to appreciate epic poetry or the cursus honorum. Point being, the fact Western/Northern Europe has been on the top of the shitheap for a few hundred years doesn't justify your tired rehashing of the continental theory of racism.

And incidentally, how much rap have you listened to, really? I mean, I'm sure you can rattle off a few names ... Eminem, probably ... maybe N.W.A., if you're older, and have a memory. Snoop Doog, too, I'd imagine. But that's about it, right? I mean, you've never heard the names Aesop Rock, or Brother Ali, or Immortal Technique, or am I mistaken?

StarOfEight
08-24-04, 10:01 AM
Dreamwalker: Well, my comment did aim at the abstruse and strange ideas contained in the conversation you witnessed. I am of the opinion that such ideas can be created by mind altering drugs since I found them to be somewhat ridiculous.
*************
M*W: Okay, I understand now, and I agree with you. At first I thought you may have misinterpreted that it was a conversation I had overhead and not my own ideas. But since you understood that, I apologize.

The two older black fellows were talking religion, and I didn't start eavesdropping until they got into the evolution thing. I don't know if this is an individual belief or if it is what the black folks generally believe. It was quite an interesting conversation they were having, but in this case, I don't think it was from taking mind-altering drugs. It just amazed me that they believed blacks and whites evolved separately and by two different methods. The point of their conversation, however, was that blacks will inherit the earth because white man didn't come from here, we came from some black ho in space.

As compared with the stupid shit white people believe? Not a lot of melanin amongst the Mormons, last I checked.

Blue_UK
08-24-04, 01:50 PM
*o8,

Actually, my childhood friend loved rap and I had to endure much. I could list names, but if I couldn't I'd use google so I won't bother - just take my word for it.

Yes, the Romans were a good race.

Yes, the mormons are crime against humanity, let alone the better segment.

Are you a fan of rap by any chance? You're title says not.

Repo Man
08-24-04, 02:36 PM
I dislike virtually all rap music. I feel much the same about country music. I'm not arrogant enough to feel that my dislike means that these forms of music require no talent. Though I have to leave it to fans of these genres to be able to discern the talented from the talent less.

Music is ultimately only noises that we like. And the culture we grow up in greatly influnces our taste in music. Traditional Chinese music sounds like someone torturing a cat to me. But to simply dismiss it as being "bad" because I do not enjoy it is to give in to the universal human impulse to ethnocentrism.

I had a discussion with a friend once where he maintained that classical music was culturally superior. He felt that electronic instruments require much less talent to play.
I asked him if he felt books were better when they were written with a quill pen on parchment. Yes, the printing press made it much easier to write books, but it didn't make it easier to write good ones. There are many classical works that are difficult to play, and are generally considered bad anyway. Difficulty alone does not make art good.

Electronic instruments have made it easier to make music, but making music that people enjoy is still difficult. And for the most part, the dividing line between good music and bad music is arbitrary,and wholly dependent on personal taste.

GuessWho
08-24-04, 03:37 PM
And blacks run faster. So what?
Just yesterday, the olympic gold medalist of the 400m run was a white guy. By the way, what about swimmers?

Blue_UK
08-24-04, 04:10 PM
I had a discussion with a friend once where he maintained that classical music was culturally superior. He felt that electronic instruments require much less talent to play.
I asked him if he felt books were better when they were written with a quill pen on parchment. Yes, the printing press made it much easier to write books, but it didn't make it easier to write good ones. There are many classical works that are difficult to play, and are generally considered bad anyway. Difficulty alone does not make art good.


You friend is right (IMO) for the wrong reasons. It is not better because it's harder to play; real instruments don't all have the luxury of a keyboard. Mozart's works could sound equally as good on synthesisers. Of course with one the skill is in programming, the other training your brain to move your arms such and such. The glory of classical music is in the writing.

Of course not all 'classical' music (I hate that term, it seems to be used to describe any orchestral music) is great. But certainly the orchestra is a fantastically more advanced medium of music that you'd find in nig culture.

I agree, music is noise that some people like and others not (My theory of motivation has a simular element: "Beautiful girls do not literally radiate pleasure, it is the viewer whose mind holds the templates") so obviously no one kind of music can be 'better' intrinsically - that would not make sense. But I think it's pretty obvious that the complexity of some 'classical' pieces out-classes most rap hands down. (I know you agreed that rap was poor, here I'm just enforcing my belief on others).

We seem to being going off topic and if I go on I have a high chance of getting banned, so I may as well cool down before I end up like Anakin Skywalker in EpII ("I hate them, [crying] I HATE THEM! They're monsters blah blah").

I'm NOT racist, I'm culturalist.

Repo Man
08-24-04, 04:21 PM
But your opinion is based on the unstated assumption that there is an objective yardstick by which the quality of music can be judged.

I don't agree with this premise.

Blue_UK
08-24-04, 04:26 PM
I agree, music is noise that some people like and others not (My theory of motivation has a simular element: "Beautiful girls do not literally radiate pleasure, it is the viewer whose mind holds the templates") so obviously no one kind of music can be 'better' intrinsically - that would not make sense.



But your opinion is based on the unstated assumption that there is an objective yardstick by which the quality of music can be judged.

I don't agree with this premise.

Really?

Repo Man
08-24-04, 05:05 PM
But you also said this: "But certainly the orchestra is a fantastically more advanced medium of music that you'd find in nig culture."

And I also spotted a reference to "real instruments".

Electronic instruments are just as real as any violin, cello, or any other orchestral instrument. Saying otherwise betrays your bias.

We are all ethnocentric. I think it is the innate default position for humans, probably for sociobiological reasons. You just have to realize that it is the ultimate root of a preference of one form of music over another.

StarOfEight
08-25-04, 01:32 AM
Are you a fan of rap by any chance? You're title says not.

Clever.

And am I a fan of rap? I'm a fan of good music. Whether that's Johnny Cash, the Rolling Stones, Beethoven, or Biggie Smalls, I don't care.

Anyways, I'm still waiting for the part where you establish rap is a degenerate influence on our culture, rather than something you personally dislike. What's your justification to hate rap? Do you think it's misogynistic, maybe, or do you think it glorifies violence, or what? I mean, beyond the fact that rappers are predominantly black. And I know ... I know, you're not a racist. You're a racialist. Or, a culturalist. Or, whatever cute euphemism you'll have tomorrow.

Hiding behind a preference for "real" instruments and an aversion to electronic sounds is bullshit, of course, since both the blues and jazz rely on "real" instruments, and are generally free of electronic sounds. Of course, since they're not generally free of non-whites, you can't dig 'em. C'mon ... when you single out a predominantly black genre of music for your hatred, while glorifying an almost entirely white one, and claim to be a culturalist ...

And please, do list some of those names.

James R
08-25-04, 02:26 AM
GuessWho:


Just yesterday, the olympic gold medalist of the 400m run was a white guy.

And today, the gold, silver and bronze medalists in the 3000 metre steeplechase were all black guys from Kenya.

Are you going somewhere with this?


By the way, what about swimmers?

What about them? How many swimming pools and oceans are there in Kenya?

Blue_UK
08-25-04, 04:29 AM
I feel somewhat sad that my reference to real instruments was interpretted so badly. I mean 'real' as in non-electronic. I love electronic sounds - I love the prodigy (as mentioned previously in another thread). I don't think we are really at a disagreement on this front.

With regard to rap (especially gansta rap), I feel it promotes lethargy, drug abuse and fock da po-leese attitudes. Of course, I could be mistaken and in maybe it's the other way round (i.e. having that alignment promotes rap music choice).

You have 'got' me on the culturalist front. It's difficult to put a tone of voice accross in forums, but I place a very sarcastic one on this matter in real life. Ok, I admit I am extremely prejudice against blacks - but I acknowledge that it's purely because of poverty and culture - nothing else. My peers call this inteligent racism! Obviously it is just plain un-PC.

Name a few names? ooo... Tupac, Puffy, DMX, Snoop, Eminem, Vanilla Ice(!), NWA (too much attitude), ICP etc... I'm sure I'd recognise countless more if mentioned.

Natually I have ommited people like Faithless, who are at least a little more acceptable.


But certainly the orchestra is a fantastically more advanced medium of music that you'd find in nig culture
Again, with what criteria do I make this statement on? Just look at one, organisation, huge variety, massive polyphonic capability... I thought that statement was undeniable.

Facial
08-25-04, 04:59 AM
We are all ethnocentric. I think it is the innate default position for humans, probably for sociobiological reasons. You just have to realize that it is the ultimate root of a preference of one form of music over another.

Well stated.

Blue_UK
08-26-04, 12:17 PM
Yes, yes, but classical is clearly more advanced than rap!

That's it - no more on this matter please. I don't want to hear any more of this racistist banter.

duendy
08-26-04, 04:20 PM
look 'evolved whitey' there isn't ONLY rap. many forms of non-white music exists, which is incredibly complex. i love some classical music too, but HATE this 'we are more evolved than you' bolloks. it truly suks. no REAL musicians would even humour you!...wel, errrm maybe they would. laughing secretly at your naive arrogance.

byw, can you rap?.....hehe, would LOVe to hear it

StarOfEight
08-26-04, 04:48 PM
I feel it promotes lethargy, drug abuse and fock da po-leese attitudes.

Lethargy? How's that? As for drug abuse ... shit, have you ever heard of the Stones, or the Velvet Underground? And fock da po-leese ... you heard of Bruce Springsteen or Bob Dylan?


Tupac, Puffy, DMX, Snoop, Eminem, Vanilla Ice(!), NWA (too much attitude), ICP etc

That's eight artists you listed, and three of 'em (Puffy, Vanilla Ice, and ICP) are pure shit, on account of their no-talent ways, and in the case of Puffy and Vanilla Ice, using samples to make themselves famous. As for the other five ... that's such a small, unrepresentative sample of rap music. And that's cool, 'cause you're not a rap fan, so why would you listen to anything that's not mainstream? That being said, saying that you hate rap because you dislike elements of mainstream rap is like me saying I hate Hollywood 'cause they keep making movies with Seth Green. Or, for that matter, saying I hate classical 'cause Hitler was a fan of Wagner's.


Again, with what criteria do I make this statement on? Just look at one, organisation, huge variety, massive polyphonic capability... I thought that statement was undeniable.

What makes an organized art form inherently superior? Nothing, beyond your preference. I mean, I could just as easily argue that jazz, or the blues, or freestyles, are more impressive because of their spontaenity.

Variety? Okay, sure, that's a good thing ... and if you think there's no variety in rap music, then you haven't listened to nearly enough of it. Again, you're not a fan of the genre, so I understand that, but that doesn't make your opinion justified.

"Massive polyphonic capability?" Well, thanks for establishing that dozens of musicians can put together more sounds than four or five, but how does this make the music superior? I mean, by that argument, a twelve course meal is inherently superior than a nice, juicy slab o' steak.

apendrapew
08-26-04, 07:50 PM
I remember reading a chapter in my Psychology book about intelligence. They mentioned that 52 researchers found that the bell curve of IQ scores among whites centered around 100, whereas for blacks, 85. Different subgroups of Hispanics were in between those numbers.

So if by more evolved, you mean more intelligent, then yes, whites are more evolved.

StarOfEight
08-27-04, 01:50 AM
Assuming that an IQ test is a reliable indicator of intelligence ...

JIMC
08-27-04, 12:30 PM
i don't think that the question had anything to do with prejudice or racism. i think that the people who brought it up as such could quite possibly be prejudice or racism, as they say, "it takes one to know one" the original question was simply a question and if we, as humans(not black or white or any other color) can't look at an innocent question without flaring anger and resentment how are we going to create a world where we can live in peace.

she asked for an opinion and here's mine.

this is from a western civ class that i took a few semesters ago:
in the beginning all humans were black, when they started to migrate they had to adapt to variations in the sunlight and so some become white as they moved further away from the equator and some grew darker as they moved closer so that their skin would protect them. as for the more evolved, you would have to assume that white people had to evolve further, if you consider the fact that their skin changed from black to white evolution. now in no way is that prejudiced or racial, it's science whether or not you choose to believe it is your problem not mine. as for intelligence, that is in an individual trait, it can be passed on through the parents or a person can make themselves intelligent. it is believed that a person can only get so far in intelligence though and that peak is afforded by genetics.

as for everyone who got angry and mad, you do have to realize that the entire question revolved around one thing. OPINION. not fact.



Whenpeople moved to colder climates they had to start developing some defensive mechanisms, like designing and wearing protective clothing, shelters, means of travel like boats and ships, hunting in less prolific areas, and tools for all the above.
This may have put the lighter-skinned people ahead in tool and weapon development, just out of necessity, and this shows in European's large scale attempts to conquer the world with their advanced ships and weapons.
Having better tecnology doesn't imply intellectual superiority. Any healthy human baby from any part of any society, put in the best of circumstances, should develop about the same.
I've read that man's present capabilities of our brain was reached about 100,000 years ago. Any info on any of this?

Saith
08-27-04, 01:23 PM
I thought it was more like 40,000 years ago.

As for IQ tests, I found this from here: Nationmaster.com (http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/List-of-countries-by-IQ)

107: Hong Kong
106: South Korea
105: Japan
104: Taiwan (ROC)
104: Singapore
102: Austria
102: Germany
102: Italy
102: Netherlands
101: Sweden
101: Switzerland
100: Belgium
100: China (PRC)
100: New Zealand
100: U.K.
99: Hungary
99: Poland
98: Australia
98: Denmark
98: France
98: Norway
98: United States
97: Canada

One explanation for higher IQ for some countries is that the high difficulty of learning how to write the language (like japanese) increases the learning ability.

Blue_UK
08-28-04, 02:44 PM
I remember reading a chapter in my Psychology book about intelligence. They mentioned that 52 researchers found that the bell curve of IQ scores among whites centered around 100, whereas for blacks, 85. Different subgroups of Hispanics were in between those numbers.

So if by more evolved, you mean more intelligent, then yes, whites are more evolved.

Even I know this is fallicious. Certain variables had not been isolated, such as education.


Lethargy? How's that? As for drug abuse ... shit, have you ever heard of the Stones, or the Velvet Underground? And fock da po-leese ... you heard of Bruce Springsteen or Bob Dylan?

So it's not the only culprit, but that's no excuse.


That's eight artists you listed, and three of 'em (Puffy, Vanilla Ice, and ICP) are pure shit, .....Or, for that matter, saying I hate classical 'cause Hitler was a fan of Wagner's.

Don't get me wrong, I have heard a lot of rap and include in my definition many forms including various works by the Beastie Boys, Cyprus Hill and lil' kim. I'm sorry you took off on old Vanilla, he was thrown in as a joke.


What makes an organized art form inherently superior? Nothing, beyond your preference. I mean, I could just as easily argue that jazz, or the blues, or freestyles, are more impressive because of their spontaenity.

You got me there. It's just personal preference.


"Massive polyphonic capability?" Well, thanks for establishing that dozens of musicians can put together more sounds than four or five, but how does this make the music superior? I mean, by that argument, a twelve course meal is inherently superior than a nice, juicy slab o' steak.

And what sauce will you be having with your steak, sir? Perhaps a side of potatoes, fried onions, mushrooms and a glass of wine? What if that steak were one of those courses?
The instrument [orchestra] is only as good as the person using it, if the twelve course meal is inferior then that it is the fault of the composer.

Complexity, working on harmony.

If ever there was an intellectual quality in music, then surely it would be this? Even if what is harmonious is subjective.

apolo
08-28-04, 08:58 PM
About 2 years ago I read that a psychology proffesor of the university of Toronto published a paper where he put the intelligence of the different races in the following order.

Jews
Orientals (Chinese,Japanese)
Caucasians
Negroes

Ouch; that puts me second from the bottom. I'm not saying if I agree or disagree with his paper. But it strikes me, that apparently they still have free spech up in Canada. Because the guy is still employed, in spite of the flak that came in from some of the public.

StarOfEight
08-28-04, 09:00 PM
So it's not the only culprit, but that's no excuse.

Right, but it doesn't explain why you're focusing solely on rap.


Don't get me wrong, I have heard a lot of rap and include in my definition many forms including various works by the Beastie Boys, Cyprus Hill and lil' kim. I'm sorry you took off on old Vanilla, he was thrown in as a joke.

Every single artist you've listed, with the sorta exception of ICP, is mainstream. Nothing wrong with that, and again, you don't like the genre, so it's to be expected, but that doesn't absolve your opinion of being shallow.


And what sauce will you be having with your steak, sir? Perhaps a side of potatoes, fried onions, mushrooms and a glass of wine? What if that steak were one of those courses?
The instrument [orchestra] is only as good as the person using it, if the twelve course meal is inferior then that it is the fault of the composer.

Missed the point of my analogy. All I'm saying is that complexity isn't inherently good.

Blue_UK
08-29-04, 06:06 AM
I didn't miss the point, I understand that complexity is not inherently good. "if the twelve course meal is inferior then that it is the fault of the composer,"



Jews
Orientals (Chinese,Japanese)
Caucasians
Negroes

Hitler had a thing or two to say about the Jews in his book Mein Kampf. He mentioned that most knowledge and understanding is passed down through the generations and new thinking rarely occrus. He put the Jew's 'cunning' nature down to a thousand years cultural standstill. I don't necessarily agree with him, but eduation and upbringing are critical in the development of a mind, me thinks.

duendy
08-29-04, 06:31 AM
(((((MODERATOR? WHERE IS MY POST? HAVE YOU CENSORED IT?.....))

African-American music has been such an influence on American music generally, that it would be nothing without its influence
its movements also hav e hepled white men to be able to get in touch with their bodies again which, due to over emphasis on cerebreality, including music, had stiffened, ...the brain having become disconnected from the body. A good example of this revolution has been in most of our lifetimes. remember Elvis 'the Pelvis? well, let me remind you that tightarsed mainstream white amerikee was so divorced from sensual rythym that the main television company tried to censor Elvis' body from the waist down, because he swivelled his hips. you know of corse where Elvis got his inspiration from. YIP, AfroAmercian culture
So, Africans taught you whites to get in contact with your bodies. no small thing

another poster here said something really charming and intelligent like "Orchastrative music is more evolved from nig culture"...i find that very offensive. and if i find it was my post that got moderated and thats not regarded as offensive, i will be seriously pissed off
i am not saying he shouldn't have freedom of speech. but if THAt offensive remark's allowed, where's MY post

if i've mis-seen it. excuse me.

Blue_UK
08-29-04, 07:13 AM
Are you sure you posted, Duendy? F-ups can happen. A mod would have PM'ed if they did.

What I actually said was.


"But certainly the orchestra is a fantastically more advanced medium of music that you'd find in nig culture

I for one do not like random use of the word evolve and I would not have said that orchestral music came from n culture.

As I have said elsewhere I use the 'n' word only to refer to a particular sterotype.

I am fully aware of what modern culture has descended from Af-Ams.


...it would be nothing without its influence

...the brain having become disconnected from the body.

Africans taught you whites to get in contact with your bodies.

That offends me.

-----------------

There are physiological differences between each race and it follows that some will be better at others at various tasks. What experimentation has be done, however, is another question.

I would be interested to see such research. Obviously, I do not expect all of type A to be better than all of type B (with respect to set criteria) but certainly if attributes were normally distributed I would expect the mean and sd to be different.

duendy
08-29-04, 11:34 AM
ok, so we all can see even YOU can get offended, yeah? so this must mean you would have empathy with others you may knowingly or unknowlingly offend. am i right?

so why them 'me' use such an offensive term as 'nig culture' not even being arsed to use the full denigrating term 'nigger'...why do you think that isn't offensive?

secondly, why ARe you offended for me to imply that from ALL the horrs inflicted on Black people from the white people that they couldn't have given some fundamental 'gift'...

or let me put it in another way. if i said the French influence with food has greatly influenced anglo-saxon appraoaches to food, would THAt offend you. dont we all have some values to share

whay were you offended?

Blue_UK
09-02-04, 08:15 AM
it would be nothing without its influence

...the brain having become disconnected from the body.

Africans taught you whites to get in contact with your bodies.

It would be nothing without its influence? What the hell?

Africans taught us to be one with ours bods? I don't for an instant think that that's true, btw.

I can shorten the 'full denigrating' term nigger -> nig as it's much easier to say. That means nothing.

[quote]or let me put it in another way. if i said the French influence with food has greatly influenced anglo-saxon appraoaches to food, would THAt offend you. dont we all have some values to share/[quote]

Nah, that doesn't offend me - I quite like French cuisine. English, French and German... all fine with me.

Gravity
09-02-04, 08:33 AM
This is a stupid subject. We've all been evolving for the same period of time - natural selection doesn't take breaks, we've each just specialized to some specific circumstances.

Hypercane
09-02-04, 09:22 AM
Well... if you are talking just about their skin color, then the black are more evolved. The whites are just too weak with sunlight - they need to be more careful.

If you are speaking of a matter of intelligence and this kind of stuff... then I guess this would be just racism...

I agree.

Blue_UK
09-02-04, 12:15 PM
This is a stupid subject. We've all been evolving for the same period of time - natural selection doesn't take breaks, we've each just specialized to some specific circumstances.

Different selective pressures = different rates of evoultion. Hence, one is more evolved than the other when you pick certain features to measure.

Blue_UK
09-02-04, 12:18 PM
I agree.


Read the replies to that post. Light skin is good at vitamin D (or is it E?) production, whilst dark skin is good at UV protection.



Well... if you are talking just about their skin color, then the black are more evolved. The whites are just too weak with sunlight - they need to be more careful.
If you are speaking of a matter of intelligence and this kind of stuff... then I guess this would be just racism...
If talking about intel' is racist, then why isn't talking about skin colour?

caffeine_fubar
09-02-04, 01:31 PM
Philocrazy, you argue with ppl too much. Quit insulting ppl!!! ;)

James R
09-03-04, 05:44 AM
Different selective pressures = different rates of evoultion. Hence, one is more evolved than the other when you pick certain features to measure.

Which would be all well and good if blacks and whites hadn't been interbreeding for hundreds of thousands of years.

Gravity
09-03-04, 07:03 AM
>>Which would be all well and good if blacks and whites hadn't been interbreeding for hundreds of thousands of years.<<

Seems like combination of evolved survival traits would tend to strengthen a species. What is your problem with it?

Personally, a mulatto (mixed race) kid looks a lot more natural and healthy than a white boy wearing a ball cap sideways and big ass pants! :)

jbrittenham
09-03-04, 08:12 AM
Seems like combination of evolved survival traits would tend to strengthen a species. What is your problem with it?

Personally, a mulatto (mixed race) kid looks a lot more natural and healthy than a white boy wearing a ball cap sideways and big ass pants! :)

No they don't... those niggerboy noses and the pubic hair on their head don't look healthy.

Gravity
09-03-04, 08:15 AM
Huh. You a good little Christian racist NASCAR loving republican white boy Jbrittenham? ;)

Dreamwalker
09-03-04, 08:18 AM
Nah, I think he is a british isolationist.

Gravity
09-03-04, 08:19 AM
Ahh, I always forget that there are inbred little racist morons across the pond too! :cool:

Dr Lou Natic
09-03-04, 08:32 AM
Seems like combination of evolved survival traits would tend to strengthen a species. What is your problem with it?

I don't think he has a problem with it. I think he's one of the people who doesn't believe in races :rolleyes:
Not me, notice ethiopians dominating the long distance running in the olympics? They might not have won every event but there was always a trio or so of them up the front. Know why? No it wasn't because of superior training.
The, as a people, have evolved to specialise in long distance running. The traditional hunting techniques of the people from that region, the ones that are still practiced today, involve chasing ungulates on foot untill they litterally pass out from exhaustion.
This is just a particularly apparent case. All races are specialised to some lifestyle. They've evolved under different conditions and thusly have become different animals.

Now obviously saying one race is "more evolved" than another is just stupid. However types of organisms that appeared earlier than others are considered more primitive.
Jellyfish are considered more primitive than human beings because that type evolved hundreds of millions of years ago while hominids evolved within the last million years.
By this standard it could be argued that the negroid type is more primitive than the caucasoid.
The australoid (australian aborginies) especially is a very old design, from the first wave of homosapiens to leave africa who weren't followed by anyone for a very long time. Homo-sapiens in africa did alot of evolving after the descendents of australoids already had left. The other races(other than australoids) all stemmed from what was one race at this stage.
And whilst trying to avoid political incorrectness, it can be seen in the australian aboriginal culture that they are indeed a more primitive animal than the other homo-sapiens. When captain cook landed on australia the native people hadn't even developed basic shelter. They were very simple and represented an earlier stage in human history. Yes, all people around the world had been evolving, but sometimes evolution stabilises when it works out. Again we can look to the jellyfish. It's technically just as evolved as anything else, but it is a primitive design.
Newer doesn't necessarrily mean better however, often the newer designs are more specialised than the older ones which means they are less adaptable to change. The sloth bear evolved from the brown bear, so the brown bear is technically more primitive, but the sloth bear it's losing its teeth and on its way to specialising to eating ants. If something happened where it couldn't get ants it would be screwed but the brown bear could handle big changes because it has such a varied diet.
Negroids are a more primitive design than caucasoids, but whether they are a lesser design is up for interpretation.
I think the caucasoid design certainly does excell over the negroid design in some aspects. They are generally a more industrious animal, but the negroid is a more athletically gifted animal, faster, stronger. Perfectly capable of surviving in its environment. There's certainly nothing wrong with it. But in what some people, certainly people at sciforums, seem to deem important, they aren't as equipped as caucasoids. Generally (which is why denying the existence of race is common at sciforums, the conclusions they personally would draw from observing racial differences would make them feel like a racist because they respect critical intelligence more than jumping abiility or whatever).
I'd actually say the caucasoid is a bit of a sloth bear, a more specialised design than the negroid. But the caucasoid has changed the world to suit him, so now he seems like the ultimate example of a homo-sapien because he is the most successfull and other races can tend to struggle to fit into the environment he created as smoothly as he can. But when you take into consideration that he made the environment to suit his own strengths then its perfectly understandable. And its not a case of the caucasoid being "better" than the negroid, but better AT being a caucasoid.

Gravity
09-03-04, 08:39 AM
Its quite obvious that there can be physiological differences between races. I think the danger is recognizing that some races might be better at something, say long distance running, is that simple human insecurity/egotism then will usually lead to "but they are not as SMART as we are" or such. When in fact, logically, them being stronger in one area does not mean that they must be weaker in another. Hell - they could just be superior beings! :) I'm not actually saying I think thats true, but its a logical fallacy to assume that them being stronger in one area must mean they are weaker in another.

Dr Lou Natic
09-03-04, 09:00 AM
Its quite obvious that there can be physiological differences between races. I think the danger is recognizing that some races might be better at something, say long distance running, is that simple human insecurity/egotism then will usually lead to "but they are not as SMART as we are" or such.
Its obvious people will draw there own stupid conclusions from things. But I have a problem when the fear of this happening gets in the way of learning. Which IMO it does all too often.


When in fact, logically, them being stronger in one area does not mean that they must be weaker in another. Hell - they could just be superior beings! :) I'm not actually saying I think thats true, but its a logical fallacy to assume that them being stronger in one area must mean they are weaker in another.
Actually, in a way, it does mean that.
Becoming specialised in any 1 area means the organism will lose a little of the "all rounder" base it started from. Thats just how it goes in evolution.
If you've ever created a player in a video game, thats what its like. You have to take a point off power in order to add one to stamina. Obviously its not that simple, and stamina and power specifically aren't at odds with one another necessarrily.
But basically, it is similar. Certainly while the animal is one species.
You could never breed a dog that could run as fast as a greyhound and fight like a pitbull. Both these animals are extremely specialised to their respective tasks. As soon as you started taking running speed into account in the breeding selection of pitbulls you would start losing fighting ability. And vice versa for greyhounds. You have to only take running speed into consideration with greyhound breeding to maintain that level of running ability.

Gravity
09-03-04, 09:19 AM
And so, do you think a trait like say, running ability, is at odds with intelligence? I think not. Perhaps more long twitch fiber in muscles means less short twitch, so we wouldn't be as fast or something -- but to jump to a completely different physiological system is a bit absurd.

But you just KNOW that this is the natural reaction of arrogant/insecure white folks to this kind of thing "oh, they can run futher - but they are morons!"

Blue_UK
09-03-04, 09:28 AM
Which would be all well and good if blacks and whites hadn't been interbreeding for hundreds of thousands of years.

Here and there, true. But as there are distinct physical differences I would hazzard a guess that there may be developmental changes in the brain as well.





Ahh, I always forget that there are inbred little racist morons across the pond too!

What you forget is the difference between truth and racism. :)

Oh, Fuzzywuzzy hair is a matter of personal preferance, I don't agree with J that it looks less healthy.



By this standard it could be argued that the negroid type is more primitive than the caucasoid.

No, both the Negroid and the Cauc~ are descendants of a common ancestor and are equally 'evolved' when you don't specify criteria.


When in fact, logically, them being stronger in one area does not mean that they must be weaker in another.

Oh yes, I agree on that one - you could have one race inferior in every respect. I don't think, however, that any one race does have it all. My dad once jokingly said, "The orientals are obviously the most inteligent race but also (one of) the smallest," you can guess where this was going and at which point he trailed off when he didn't want to sound racist!

Dr. Lou, although I agree with you on many points, I don't think your greyhound/pitbull analogy fits with strength/inteligence comparasen in Humans. Where fighting ability/speed are both very much dependant on muscle structure, intel' and strength ask for different attributes.

Gravity
09-03-04, 09:49 AM
The main thing is, that whatever physical/mental differences there may be between different races - nature shows that you have to be genetically VERY close to be able to breed with each other. We are MUCH more simliar than different, so it seems pretty silly to dwell upon and quibble over subtle differences! Its a sign of insecurity to feel compelled to spend much energy focusing on little differences.

jbrittenham
09-03-04, 10:43 AM
Huh. You a good little Christian racist NASCAR loving republican white boy Jbrittenham? ;)

No boy, I'm a skinhead that wears black boots and has kicked in the skull of many a nigguh like you. Although I can always pretend I'm a good old fashioned cross burner and jigaboo lyncher. How's your neck feeling today boy!

Gravity
09-03-04, 11:10 AM
Heh - "boy"! Heh! ;)

jbrittenham
09-03-04, 01:45 PM
Would you prefer shitskin?

Gravity
09-03-04, 03:57 PM
So - - - you weren't being sarcastic? You actually talk like that?! :o

rGEMINI
09-03-04, 10:59 PM
Would you prefer shitskin?

o.0 dude thats so racist!!!

Dr Lou Natic
09-03-04, 11:59 PM
Hey, now that you mention it, that does seem racist :eek:
Thanks for the heads up rgemini, I'll be sure to stick my thumb up my ass :eek:

haynewp
09-04-04, 12:46 AM
It's the big black guys in the gym that I am jealous of. They talk to their friends and lift weights at the same time. I bust my ass lifting heavy weights, they lift 1/4 the weight and look twice as good. WTF?

rGEMINI
09-04-04, 05:11 AM
Hey, now that you mention it, that does seem racist :eek:
Thanks for the heads up rgemini, I'll be sure to stick my thumb up my ass :eek:

you might want to look at his "show all posts" thingy... there a little racist =_

Dr Lou Natic
09-04-04, 05:51 AM
Whoa, I just looked, talk about racist. Keep up the good work rGEMINI.
I'm off now to stick my thumb up my ass.

duendy
09-04-04, 06:17 AM
oh, we've got a right one here you'll
A 'jbrittanham' charmingly inquires: " would you like shit skin".......
you mean the delightful shades of brown skins? that are so smooth to the touch...so erotic. blacker the juice sweeter the berry? do you secretly dream of havin a good like hey j.
you know, i'd sooner have 'shit skin' than shit for brains like what you got

James R
09-06-04, 02:29 AM
Blue_UK:


Here and there, true. But as there are distinct physical differences I would hazzard a guess that there may be developmental changes in the brain as well.

There's no way to select a distinct group of human beings based on development of the brain and simultaneously ensure that all members of the group are either black or white. The correlation you are looking for simply doesn't exist.

Blue_UK
09-06-04, 08:42 AM
James, I'll take your word for it anyway if you can't - but I'd like to know the source of your information. The correlation I am looking for does not have to be all B are different to all W. You mentioned earlier that B&W's have been interbreeding for ages. Surely we'd all be some kind of generic agouti in colour if this were the case to any significant degree?

James R
09-06-04, 09:31 AM
You mentioned earlier that B&W's have been interbreeding for ages. Surely we'd all be some kind of generic agouti in colour if this were the case to any significant degree?

No, because genes don't work that way. Let's say your parents have some characteristic, scalable from 1 to 10, and your father has genes which make him a 10 on the scale, while your mother is a 1. So, what are you? Well, if this characteristic is determined by a single gene, you'll either be a 1 or a 10. You WON'T be a 5.5. Genes don't "average out" through interbreeding.

Skin colour is not a single gene. The amount of melanin (which determines how dark your skin is) is controlled by a number of separate genes, as well as environmental factors. For that reason, there can sometimes appear to be a kind of averaging effect going on, but colour never really "breeds out", since the particular combinations which dictate one colour or another can pop up again in later generations. Thus, it is quite possible for two white parents to have a black child, provided they have ancestors who were darker-skinned.

Blue_UK
09-06-04, 10:17 AM
So, what are you? Well, if this characteristic is determined by a single gene, you'll either be a 1 or a 10.

I know alleles do not average out, but what about co-dominance like palamino horses? Half casts are an inbetween colour, after all.

Also, as you mention, if several genes are invloved then surely that supports an agouti concept as there is more scope for averaging out, as greater permuntations are availble rather than just 1 and 0 in the case of a single gene with two dom/reces alleles.

Looking back, we obviously agree on the genetic side of things, but I don't see why interbreeding won't shuffle the alleles and cerate a generic agouti even if an occational all-black pops out.

eincloud
09-07-04, 01:54 PM
I beleive that Equality is the word

apendrapew
09-07-04, 01:58 PM
If by that, you mean everybody is equal, you are indeed mistaken. Take a look around. Things are not equal.

Blue_UK
09-10-04, 09:06 AM
Equality... Treating people as equal (tollerable) is one thing, people actually being equal is another.

Positive discrimination / affirmative action is a disgusting horror.

James R
09-10-04, 09:26 PM
Positive discrimination / affirmative action is a disgusting horror.

Even to redress imbalances created by negative discrimination in the past?

Gravity
09-10-04, 09:37 PM
Yeah, the cards are kind of stacked in your favor when we take away all their rights, use them to help build our fortunes/civilization - then once we are holding most of the keys to everything and they are so far behind that it doesn't make any difference - THEN say "hey we must be totally *EQUAL* now, no special treatment for anybody!"

Dr Lou Natic
09-10-04, 10:51 PM
Haha, so it's like getting the salinity right in a fish tank?
You need to alternate between discriminating against different races untill you find the right balance?
One day we'll be able to say "alright, stop discriminating against white people nnnnnnow!... perfect" and everything will be right with the world.
Martin luther king should have incorporated this concept into his speach.

Gravity
09-10-04, 10:58 PM
Nope. I think the reality of the world is clearly that things are NEVER fair. But, species that support each other generally do better - so the human race should help the human race. But dividing this help by color, sex, religion, imaginary lines (nations-states) and etc is probably more destabilizing in the long run.

At the same time - racist redneck moron boys should be publically raped by a black shemale during commercial breaks of NASCAR races.

Ahhhh - that felt good to say!

ElectricFetus
09-10-04, 11:14 PM
Hard to say if white are more evolved, if you look at resistance to UV white are certainly less evolved, or at least evolved to conditions low in solar exposure. If you look at white culture that is very “evolved” is that because of biological reason is unlikely. Many non-white races were in fact more developed during ancient history.

Blue_UK
09-13-04, 09:32 AM
Yeah, the cards are kind of stacked in your favor when we take away all their rights, use them to help build our fortunes/civilization - then once we are holding most of the keys to everything and they are so far behind that it doesn't make any difference - THEN say "hey we must be totally *EQUAL* now, no special treatment for anybody!"



Even to redress imbalances created by negative discrimination in the past?

The both of you are treating arbitrary groups of people as individual people. James, how does preventing one suitable person from getting the job he deserves redress a completely seperate person getting a job he didn't?

Gravitry, the people who abused those blacks are not the same individuals who are negatively affected by affirmative action / +ve Disc, even if they have benefited down the line. If I owe you £100, and you die, I owe your son nothing more. I'd be perfectly happy with just having the right to sue because of racial discrimination and none of this careful rebalancing just so that the same % of emploees is the same % of Pop.

On a side note, I think slavery is quite acceptable when done correctly. I would allow the enslaving of non-citizens so long as laws were in place to protect them from unnecessary beatings / over working etc. Comfort of living is a relative thing; if you've never lived in luxury then you'll be happy with a lower standard living than someone who's been waited on hand-and-foot.

If we can enslave cows, then we can enslave humans. The only deciding factor should be if you're a citizen or not in the timeless spirit of law and order: "I won't do you over, if you won't do me." Lesser civilisations are incapable of 'doing us over' and hence are out of the equation. Any emotional responce to this is coincedental and would certainly not be the case if this were the status quo (see Roman Empire).


if you look at resistance to UV white are certainly less evolved

Read earlier posts.

Gravity
09-13-04, 09:59 AM
Blue - do you believe there should be NO social safety network for anybody? Food stamps, health care, educational help . . . etc? You a ''Randian'' type of boy?

I just read something interesting - the degree of upward social mobility in the USA (poor becoming rich) is the lowest in the industrialized world! Dreams of hard work paying off are really a pipe dream. Sure there are VERY rare exceptions, but pretty much you are born into the social/monetary status you will die in.

Norman
09-13-04, 11:48 AM
I was laying in bed last night, and a thought occured to me. Are white people

more evolved than black people? Or are black people the stronger race?

Please give me your opinions, and any facts you may have on this.

If we ever discover ET or if Et ever discovers us, then we'll find out if ET is either black or white or even gree for that matter. That should settle the question which color or race is more evolved..........

Yob Atta :)

Gravity
09-13-04, 12:20 PM
If too thing are different does that mean one *must* be better than the other? Their can't be differences in evolution, one has to be MORE evolved than the other?

What if the ET is a quivering mass of transluscent protoplasm? :)

neoclassical
09-13-04, 01:24 PM
I was laying in bed last night, and a thought occured to me. Are white people more evolved than black people? Or are black people the stronger race?

Please give me your opinions, and any facts you may have on this.

Differently evolved, for different purposes. Africa is a far different environment than Europe or the Americas or the Caucasus region.

In my view, what is important is that each group has its space, and they do not assimilate each other, as that produces failures of societies.

Norman
09-13-04, 05:27 PM
If too thing are different does that mean one *must* be better than the other? Their can't be differences in evolution, one has to be MORE evolved than the other?

What if the ET is a quivering mass of transluscent protoplasm? :)

As long as ET can tell the difference between male and female translucent protoplasm is all that counts........

Yob Atta :)

Blue_UK
09-14-04, 05:04 AM
Grav, a goddam trojan redirected my browser upon posting. My post is lost. (friends computer, idiot has no firewall!)

To quickly summerise:

Social security: yes, with a but.

Upward mobility: agree; as education not available in poverty.

Afirmative Action: doesn't give jobs to wholely unsuitable candidates.Therefore, it just addresses racial discrimination in the recruitment process. As % of black educated differs from white, % of higher workforces SHOULD NOT = % of pop.

Word use: too != two. And yes if 'two' things are different the chances are (when criteria has been specified) one will be 'better' than the other. But I don't like this 'more evolved' term, I think that's one thing everyone is on common ground with.

ET: his climate different to ours; not comparable. Eeeee Teeeee fuck off.

Gravity
09-14-04, 07:04 AM
Yeah, I spotted the "too/two" aftwards as well, but wouldn't want to spoil a chance for you to correct me - so no editing. Your welcome.

And your point about ET? Slight variations in home continent climate and resources are also what result in the slight differences between human races.

Blue_UK
09-14-04, 12:05 PM
My point about ET? Assuming his species to be 'more evolved' (subjected to selection over a longer period of time) and comparing his skin colour to ours is no way to base a conclusion. Selective pressures in his enviroment may have given skin pigmentation different functions, such as: camo, sexual, warning or photosynthesis. Which is why he was told to F.O.

I grow very tired of this thread.

Also, that's you're welcome!

Gravity
09-14-04, 07:31 PM
Also, that's you're welcome!

My, my. . . now I'm certain you never make mistakes, semantic or otherwise, and so it must be difficult to restrain your judgement. But I would caution you that nightly neck strengthening excercises would be a good idea.

From a personal safety standpoint, hauling an ego like that around can be dangerous. So please, keep that neck strong!

Blue_UK
09-15-04, 05:36 AM
I use a brace like Evid Merrion (Bo' selecta)! If my ego were ever to escape its magnetic field, it would annihilate all matter on this shitty planet.

I always proof read my posts/emails, although I might make a typo' from time to time. Confusing there/their/they're however, is unforgivable. As is phonetic errors like most/must or ridiculous usage of the apostrophe or comma.

Anyway, feel free to catch me out whenever you can! :)

You certainly won't be beating me logically. (/me tightens support cable to head)

Gravity
09-15-04, 09:05 AM
One could spend the rest of their life being a grammar cop on this forum alone. Its pretty obvious that there are those who are so illiterate that it is pointless harping on them about it, andthere are those who are so obviously well read that mistakes are clearly just that . . . MISTAKES.

I'm a freelance writer with several hundred articles published, but I do very much sing the praises of spell-checking software and editors! And, more stream-of-conciousness writing such as we see here, obviously is going to have a higher error rate. Especially since those of us with a life don't feel the need to carefully re-read and check our posts in an inconsequential bickering/gathering place such as a little internet forum! :)

So, thanks for the offer/challenge of trying to ''catch'' you. *My* ego requires no such input, and again - it would be an endless task to try and be the self-proclaimed editor of this place. But please, if it floats your boat . . . keep at it stud.


:cool:

Facial
09-15-04, 11:58 PM
I grow tired of this thread as well. It needs to be closed. Please, moderators?

Blue_UK
09-17-04, 09:22 AM
I don't often bother trying to correct people - if they don't know now they never will.

You on the other hand should know better!

Freelance writer? Science stuff I hope.

Gravity
09-17-04, 11:25 AM
Good grief you prick, I DO know better . . . however, being a mere human, *I MAKE MISTAKES*.

Bye, bye you arrogant twit!

Pentagon John
09-17-04, 02:55 PM
I agree with Repo Man, and would like to add that there is no such thing as race, all Caucasoids and Negroids and Mongloids are of the same species - Homo Sapiens. how could we define "race", there is no such thing as "pure race". and people in different regions of the planet possess those unique physical traits for their unique geographic reasons. we are all equally evolved, to the geographic region we live in.

I'm impressed. It is rare to find one so elightened that s/he realizes "race" is a ficticious/imaginary term with no basis in science. Discussing "race" is like having a discussion on the color of your "soul." Unfortunately it is a term/concept legitimized and forced on us by our government (if you live in the US).

I would take exception with the ending qualification "we are all equally evolved, to the geographic region we live in." People of all traits live in all areas of the world...an effect of advanced travel and our ability to invent things like jackets and air conditioners...the "where we live" no longer has any "evolutionary" significance.

Blue_UK
09-18-04, 11:07 AM
Race is just a word. I may not speak for others, but I use it to refer to the different sets of humans as characterised by their features and geography.

Whether or not this differs from most people's definition I don't know, but obviously there is a scientific basis in mine.

Arguing about words is the bane of any discussion.

s0meguy
09-21-04, 01:48 PM
all you people who think this guy is beiing a racist are not intellectual (definition: intelligent and knowledgeable: having a highly developed ability to think, reason, and understand, especially in combination with wide knowledge)

s0meguy
09-21-04, 02:22 PM
Btw, I just thought this was funny, when you work on Aruba (caribbean island, netherlands antilles) you get discriminated for beiing white.

SKULLZ
09-23-04, 11:53 PM
Dictionary definition's of race:
1.A local geographic or global human population distinguished as a more or less distinct group by genetically transmitted physical characteristics.
2.A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution: the German race.
3.A genealogical line; a lineage.
Humans considered as a group.

However the definition of racist is:
The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.

So being a racist according to definitions has NOTHING to do with hate crimes,although could lead to hate crimes,but not defined as such.


Any country who appears to have a "we are the greatest nation in the world" stance is racist by definition.

I hear people say "america is the greatest nation in the world",i tell em
"sorry youre a racist!"
you just cant say that,next time someone says that im gonna threaten them with legal action.

Blue_UK
09-24-04, 10:18 AM
I just say they're wrong! :)

Anyway, is picking a black man over white one to play the part of a black man in a film racist?

I, and most others, would say not. Even though it implies that a black man is superior with regard to playing blacks.

I define racism as "prejudice on account of race".
I define predudice as "a bias without foundation".

Each of those words are pretty much interchangable with the given phrase.

To quote myself:

Arguing about words is the bane of any discussion.
We all know what it means to be racist. Although the extent to which the Americans are jingoistic is unbelievable, it's not really racism. For example a British person would not cry if they saw a union jack on fire wheras an American would most likely have a cardiac arrest in the equivilent event.

Kain
01-08-05, 08:54 AM
This is really silly,

I was searching for 'world demographics' on Google and I came across this post.

I have to say this... just incase any other people stumble into this.

EVERYBODY IS A RACIST

Every one is ethnocentric, religacentric, localicentric.

The ones who cry 'racist' and point the finger, are infact most racist.

Why is a gay basher a gay basher? They are called homophobic. homo (self), phobic (fear). They are afraid of themselves. There are many white people who simply do not know that blacks do not grow tails after midnight. There are many black people who think that whites are aliens from another planet who have come to take over this one.

As long as you have an 'ego' you are a racist. It may be a big 'ego' it might be a small 'ego', but you have one. No one is perfect. We all have strengths and weeknesses. Perhaps racism is derived more in fear. As far as fear goes the man who talks the most courage has the most fear. Everyone has fears. If you do not have fear you are not correct in the head.

If I was an angel sent to wipe out racists, the only people that would be spaired is children under 5 years of age, and %5 of old folks who are on their death bed.

Sincerely,
Kain

spuriousmonkey
01-08-05, 08:57 AM
This is really silly,

The ones who cry 'racist' and point the finger, are infact most racist.


If we follow your logic does this mean that your post is in fact the most silly?

Big D
01-09-05, 05:28 PM
Diversity = Difference

Some of the difference:
http://www.powow.com/radio88/wb.htm

Gravity
01-09-05, 08:36 PM
Dude, that Root guy is a Christian Identity freak - one of those guys who deny's the Jewish WWII Holocaust even happend - and more.

You one of those?

Repo Man
01-09-05, 10:11 PM
BigD is a white supremacist. It really seems to be all he has to talk about, how (in his opinion) whites are better than blacks.

Yay for you BigD! Why not move to a country that doesn't allow brown people in?

Big D
01-12-05, 10:24 AM
Dude, that Root guy is a Christian Identity freak - one of those guys who deny's the Jewish WWII Holocaust even happend - and more.

You one of those?
Got any proof of what you say?

Do You think any of the facts are wrong? If so please explain.

Try to stick to the subject, personal attacks are a sure sign of lack of knowledge.

Big D
01-12-05, 10:30 AM
BigD is a white supremacist. It really seems to be all he has to talk about, how (in his opinion) whites are better than blacks.

Yay for you BigD! Why not move to a country that doesn't allow brown people in?
Your personal attacks do the subject no justice.

I have never said (whites are better then blacks), I myself find the differences to be quite interesting. You sould try not to be so emotional about this subject, this is a science forum you know.

Gravity
01-12-05, 02:03 PM
Got any proof of what you say?

Do You think any of the facts are wrong? If so please explain.

Try to stick to the subject, personal attacks are a sure sign of lack of knowledge.

Proof? Look up his name and "Christian Identity" - if he wasn't officially one, he fits their self-description.

Which ''facts" do you refer to? In this context I mentioned that he thinks the Holocaust never happened. Do we need to put facts here to prove that? I lived in Germany for years, I've been to Auswitz and Dachau -- you? Incidentally, I'm not some apologist for Jewish people anymore than I am for Christians, Muslims, Hindus . . . etc. All superstitions are equally silly to me. you?

I never personally attacked you, but rather the author to which we refered. I'm sure you are shining beacon of intellect, warmth and humanity! :)

J.B
01-12-05, 02:11 PM
Proof? Look up his name and "Christian Identity" - if he wasn't officially one, he fits their self-description.

Which ''facts" do you refer to? In this context I mentioned that he thinks the Holocaust never happened. Do we need to put facts here to prove that? I lived in Germany for years, I've been to Auswitz and Dachau -- you? Incidentally, I'm not some apologist for Jewish people anymore than I am for Christians, Muslims, Hindus . . . etc. All superstitions are equally silly to me. you?

I never personally attacked you, but rather the author to which we refered. I'm sure you are shining beacon of intellect, warmth and humanity! :)
As a Jew Myself, I know the hoiocaust happened.

The facts I speak of are the 100 facts of the link I provided. The personal attacks I speak of are of the writer of these facts.

Please provide ANY information that shows these facts to be incorrect.

J.B
01-12-05, 02:19 PM
It's the big black guys in the gym that I am jealous of. They talk to their friends and lift weights at the same time. I bust my ass lifting heavy weights, they lift 1/4 the weight and look twice as good. WTF?Blacks have much higher levels of testosterone. This also explains why blacks are much more violent and have much higher rates of sexual diseases.

spidergoat
01-12-05, 02:28 PM
There is no such thing as more or less evolved.

Gravity
01-12-05, 02:43 PM
As a Jew Myself, I know the hoiocaust happened.

The facts I speak of are the 100 facts of the link I provided. The personal attacks I speak of are of the writer of these facts.

Please provide ANY information that shows these facts to be incorrect.

Have you ever really known a black person? Good grief, its pretty pathetic to look for rationalizations for beliving that "people with THAT color skin are INFERIOR to **-ME-**"

There are tons of inconsistancy's in those points. Tests which are culturally biased, standards which are skewed. Having a life - I'm not going to bother wasting hours getting into each point. It just makes me sad, the USA is sure as hell going to end up going down in a big way pretty soon - with such hateful idiocy still making the rounds.

Anyways - if you know the holocaust happened, I'd think you'd be a little more skeptical of anything written by somebody who argues it *didn't* happen!

Good luck stud.

Repo Man
01-12-05, 07:46 PM
Saying you are a white supremacist is a statement of fact, not a personal attack. True, I don't like white supremacists. But I fail to see the point in denying what is so plainly obvious.

Big D
01-12-05, 09:36 PM
Saying you are a white supremacist is a statement of fact, not a personal attack. True, I don't like white supremacists. But I fail to see the point in denying what is so plainly obvious.
If you were to ask my opinion on what group of humans I believe to be, as you say (supreme) I would have to say the Asians.

Nobody has ever been able to bring any proof of any kind to show that these 100 facts http://www.powow.com/radio88/wb.htm are false.

It is funny how we are all told to (celebrate diversity), but once people see what make us diverse, the celebration is over.

Big D
01-12-05, 09:39 PM
There are tons of inconsistancy's in those points. Tests which are culturally biased, standards which are skewed.

FACT #14: Equalitarian ideologists often discount I.Q. test results with the excuse that they are culturally biased. Nonetheless, NO ONE, not the NAACP nor the United Negro College Fund, nor NEA had been able to develop an intelligence test which shows Blacks and Whites scoring equally.

Big D
01-12-05, 09:41 PM
Anyways - if you know the holocaust happened, I'd think you'd be a little more skeptical of anything written by somebody who argues it *didn't* happen!

Like I asked before, do you have ANY proof about this statement?

Gravity
01-12-05, 09:59 PM
Angry, angry boy! "Equalitarian ideologists'' - your label (not yours actually) is a shortcut for actual thought, and does nothing to dismantle the fact that non-culturally biased IQ tests *don't* in fact favor any of the races. Which immediately dismantles a BUNCH of those 100 points (many are actually redundant). And a quick scan through the start of it (before I feel my brain shrinking to monster-truck loving, TV worshipping, cheap beer swilling, fast food eating, Walmart shopping levels) showed me another immediate and obvious lie. The idea that blacks have invented nothing? Do yourself a favor, and Google on it. LOTS of major and minor inventions.

Anyways, why do you put so much energy into this? You get raped by a black man or something? One of them take your job? Take your woman? You secretly are jealous of them? Just need somebody to look down on? What gives?

Big D
01-12-05, 10:19 PM
The idea that blacks have invented nothing? Do yourself a favor, and Google on it. LOTS of major and minor inventions.


I believe you are refering to this fact:

FACT #2: (Throughout 6,000 years of recorded history, the Black African Negro has invented nothing. Not a written language, weaved cloth, a calendar, a plow, a road, a bridge, a railway, a ship, a system of measurement, or even the wheel. (Note: This is in reference to the pure-blooded Negro.) He is not known to have ever cultivated a single crop or domesticated a single animal for his own use (although many powerful and docile beasts abounded around him.) His only known means of transporting goods was on the top of his hard burry head. For shelter he never progressed beyond the common mud hut, the construction of which a beaver or muskrat is capable).

What the writer is saying is, what are the inventions or accomplishments of blacks before coming in contact with any other groups (race) of people?

If ALL groups of people are equal, why are not the accomplishments equal? or at least close?

This fact is then true.

Big D
01-12-05, 10:24 PM
Angry, angry boy! "Equalitarian ideologists'' - your label (not yours actually) is a shortcut for actual thought, and does nothing to dismantle the fact that non-culturally biased IQ tests *don't* in fact favor any of the races. Could you give any example of the tests you mention?

Gravity
01-12-05, 10:27 PM
Equal means the same? Different cultures have different strengths and weaknesses. Are you so insecure that you must polarize the world into ''better'' and ''worse''? Which is better -- a snow tire or a racing tire? Which is better -- a fir or a birch tree? Which is better -- a boot or a shoe? Do you get it? Different does not mean ''better'' or ''worse'' - just different.

And you didn't answer my last part there - so here it is again:

Anyways, why do you put so much energy into this? You get raped by a black man or something? One of them take your job? Take your woman? You secretly are jealous of them? Just need somebody to look down on? What gives?

Axiom79
01-13-05, 04:38 AM
I disagree with any notions of superiority in terms of race. I think this is nonsensical, as for any given population to be successful it must adapt to the constraints of its environment. The notion that race concept is based purely on appearance also seems somewhat idealistic to me. The likelihood that biological differences separating 'races' are restricted to the skin and facial features only is ludicrous. If you view a human as a survival machine, it stands to reason that biological adaptation would include internal changes also, affecting processes such as cognition, etc.

I also have to disagree with the chap who said that if you run a Google search you will find numerous 'black' inventions. He is falling into the trap of attributing value to inventiveness/creativity as though it is a universal currency. Let me put this to you: if a population lives in an environment where ingenuity and the mentality that fosters it actually threaten chances of survival, won't these traits rapidly die out?

As with previous threads on racial differences, I think many of the arguments seemed to be skewed by what people want to believe, as opposed to what is factual. All scientific data is open to interpretation to some degree and individuals tend to see what supports their view of the world. This is true of all the different viewpoints.

I find it interesting that 'non-racists' seem to enjoy the moral high-ground they perceive themselves to inhabit. One minute they will proclaim their intellectual superiority with pages and pages of superbly written prose, the next they will stoop to sarcasm, goading and cheap personal insults to support their argument. It's funny to note that once you hit a nerve in some people, no matter how intelligent, an entirely sensible discussion descends into a slanging match!

To me it is no coincidence that 'racism' has become a dirty word since the WWII. The impact of the Nazi attitudes towards race has had repercussions to the effect that now, no one dare mention even glaringly obvious racial differences, to the extent that the cultures and unique beauty of entire peoples are just dismissed. Individuals in the modern western world have been raised to believe in racial homogeneity and automatically chastise anyone who dares to challenge this viewpoint. Insight has become demonised. Despite our claims to an enlightened age, it seems as though we have gone back to the witchhunts of the 17th century!

So scared is society that endorsing the notion of racial differences will lead to a holocaust MKII at some point, that any racial and cultural differences are now just glossed over. It appears to be no coincidence that this is the case following the holocaust, when there are a great number of Jewish people in prominent positions in the western media. If any group of people suffered a great tragedy and had the means to report on it effectively, you would no doubt hear about it often. The implications of such a catastrophe may also change the way people see the world, in an attempt to avoid a repeat of the situation.

I have no criticisms of any race - as a consequence of environment and geographical differences their existence is entirely justifiable. In terms of their achievements, they have survived and that surely is the ultimate purpose of any living thing. What I do think is ill-judged and somewhat idealistic is the idea of a multi-cultural society - the idea that different groups of people will just throw away thousands of years of compounded biological and cultural development to have one big 'party of humankind'. Even though I have been raised to believe this to be a nice idea, reasoning suggests that it just won't happen unless the very differences that make a society multi-cultural in the first place are sacrificed.

Gravity
01-13-05, 07:37 AM
An even bigger indicator of a persons capabilities is what nation you are from. For example if you are from say . . . America you are far more likely to be obese, violent, less educated and superstitious/religious than a person from say any of the Scandanavian nations.

spuriousmonkey
01-13-05, 09:38 AM
Or gender....

duendy
01-13-05, 11:21 AM
I am 'mixed race' part English part African

'race' as a concept meaning race or people of a same characteristic, blood and so on, is a nazi-minded invention

being a mixture of cultures although i have never been to Africa obviously i am more open to it cause of my 'hereitc' tatus i may be more adventurous. though many whits now embrace Africa style musics...ie Afro-american Hip Hop, Reggae etc

how i see 'whites'...well pre-ELVIS-the -pelvis. weren't you'll told NOt to swivel yer hips lest the very DEVIL would come fo ya????

well Elvis, being himself completely influenced by Afro American music and style changed all that

of course, before you had Jazz and Swing, all Black originated, but it was elvis and the cross-over Rock&roll which turned on many of the white kids, and inclduing middle classians which created PANIc amongst good law abidin citeezens of the all white neighbourhoods of the good ole US of A

So, what i am saying is. Blacks got you your soul back--after it had been suppressed for hundreds of years by puritanical fundamentalism, and mechanistic science

many weren't saved, and still aren't. still as stiff as a board, and No natrual rythym or balance

spidergoat
01-13-05, 11:41 AM
From the standpoint of the genes, your outward appearance does not determine where your genes came from. So called white people may share many of the same genes with black people, even if they are not expressed as the stereotype of dark skin, brown eyes, curly hair, etc. The reverse is true as well. The geographic isolation that caused the races to develop in the first place went out with the first european colonization of Africa, as well as the slave trade.

duendy
01-13-05, 11:49 AM
yes, i agree

i think when 'whites' ask "aren't we more evolved?" they mean science. they are thinking to lord it over all the 'low lives' from past ages who they consider 'pre-scientific', and thus inferior

i seriously question their unbelieveably ignorant and arrogant assumption

J.B
01-13-05, 02:22 PM
An even bigger indicator of a persons capabilities is what nation you are from. For example if you are from say . . . America you are far more likely to be obese, violent, less educated and superstitious/religious than a person from say any of the Scandanavian nations.
Overwelmingly the most obesed, violent, less educated and superstitious people are the black Africans in the U.S.

Without blacks, America would rid it's self of 60% of ALL violent crime.

J.B
01-13-05, 02:38 PM
I am 'mixed race' part English part African

'race' as a concept meaning race or people of a same characteristic, blood and so on, is a nazi-minded invention

being a mixture of cultures although i have never been to Africa obviously i am more open to it cause of my 'hereitc' tatus i may be more adventurous. though many whits now embrace Africa style musics...ie Afro-american Hip Hop, Reggae etc

how i see 'whites'...well pre-ELVIS-the -pelvis. weren't you'll told NOt to swivel yer hips lest the very DEVIL would come fo ya????

well Elvis, being himself completely influenced by Afro American music and style changed all that

of course, before you had Jazz and Swing, all Black originated, but it was elvis and the cross-over Rock&roll which turned on many of the white kids, and inclduing middle classians which created PANIc amongst good law abidin citeezens of the all white neighbourhoods of the good ole US of A

So, what i am saying is. Blacks got you your soul back--after it had been suppressed for hundreds of years by puritanical fundamentalism, and mechanistic science

many weren't saved, and still aren't. still as stiff as a board, and No natrual rythym or balanceBlacks have also lead the way in ALL sexual diseases, rape, murder, child abandament, domestic violence, teen age pregnacy, high school dropouts and have constantly brought down the quality of life in any area they inhabit.

spidergoat
01-13-05, 03:01 PM
Obesity can be the result of what until recent history has been an evolutionary advantage, the ability to store energy in prosperous times to survive the lean times. That is why Native Americans, Africans, and others tend to gain weight when living on the modern high calorie diet.

As far as the other stuff, J.B., are you really that ignorant? How can you so easily dismiss 400 years of slavery, oppression, poverty and prejudice? The biggest violent criminals in the US are overwhelmingly rich, white, educated, and attend prayer breakfasts at the white house.

J.B
01-13-05, 03:10 PM
Obesity can be the result of what until recent history has been an evolutionary advantage, the ability to store energy in prosperous times to survive the lean times. That is why Native Americans, Africans, and others tend to gain weight when living on the modern high calorie diet.

As far as the other stuff, J.B., are you really that ignorant? How can you so easily dismiss 400 years of slavery, oppression, poverty and prejudice? The biggest violent criminals in the US are overwhelmingly rich, white, educated, and attend prayer breakfasts at the white house.
In black controled country's the rate of crime is far greater then of blacks living in the U.S.

Obesity is a result of lazyness, something blacks are famous for.

spidergoat
01-13-05, 03:11 PM
I can easily prove that J.B. assertions are scientifically wrong. Just raise a "black" baby in a "white" family. It happens sometimes, and the black kid walks, talks and acts just like it's parents and peers. The high percentage of blacks in prisons is not due to their genetics, but cultural forces.

guthrie
01-13-05, 03:55 PM
Hey, J.B., are you saying that whites are more evolved than blacks or something?

duendy
01-13-05, 04:26 PM
Overwelmingly the most obesed, violent, less educated and superstitious people are the black Africans in the U.S.

Without blacks, America would rid it's self of 60% of ALL violent crime.

I see I see. so this is what you and your like do. you use them for slaves to make you lots of dosh. They in turn ENLIVEN your previously soul-less artless culture, and give you music, and rythym. You hate that. you think they are the devil. you dont want them in your neighbourhoods. you dont want them in your films, ads, etc. you ALIENATe them. make them feel inferior. .........now. you ignore YOUR violence (violence isn't only muggin and shootin, and knifin--not that whites aren't right in the thick of that too--....violence also is exploitation and making others feel like shit. THEN you trun round and scapegoat them.

you are a racist.

duendy
01-13-05, 04:35 PM
J.B...i hav read the rest of your violent outpourings. i can see you are a waste of time to even waste any effort on. so i will leave you feverishly typing your sad words (probably with a KKK suit hangin nearby?).......i would though like to pick you up by the scruff of your neck. plant you RIGHT in the heart of a place with more black people than white, and see how you got on.......haha...that i would love to see...

maybe i might engage agin. depends my mood. but you are either takin the piss, or are serious. if the latter...it is sadder than sad

J.B
01-14-05, 03:09 PM
They in turn ENLIVEN your previously soul-less artless culture, and give you music, and rythym.
FACT #1: The White race has crossed seas, harnessed rivers, carved mountains, tamed deserts, and colonized the most barren icefields. It has been responsible for the invention of the printing press, cement, the harnessing of electricity, flight, rocketry, astronomy, the telescope, space travel, firearms, the transistor, radio, television, the telephone, the lightbulb, photography, motion pictures, the phonograph, the electric battery, the automobile, the steam engine, railroad transportation, the microscope, computers, and millions of other technological miracles. It has discovered countless medical advances, incredible applications, scientific progress, etc. Its members have included such greats as Socrates, Aristotle, Plato, Homer, Tacitus, Julius Ceaser, Napoleon, William the Conqueror, Marco Polo, Washington, Jefferson, Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Magellan, Columbus, Cabot, Edison, GrahamBell, Pasteur, Leeuwenhoek, Mendel, Darwin, Newton, Galileo, Watt, Ford, Luther, Devinci, Poe, Tennyson, and thousands upon thousands of other notable achievers.

duendy
01-14-05, 03:19 PM
....and a narrow-minded racist like you.

J.B
01-14-05, 03:52 PM
....and a narrow-minded racist like you.

Let's see, you make up a false statement about how the White race was a (soul-less and artless culture) before comming in contact with Africans, and I'm the racist?
A racist is one who make's up false statement of another race.

I have made NO false statements, stop feeling sorry for blacks and deal with reality.

guthrie
01-14-05, 04:05 PM
Perhaps you can define white race then, and explain how its more evolved?

J.B
01-14-05, 04:10 PM
Perhaps you can define white race then, and explain how its more evolved? Are you asking me or Duendy? I guess it's O.K to say that there is a (White race) as long as your just insulting or blaming Whites for something.
I don't claim one race is more evolved than any other, I am simply pointing out the many differences.

guthrie
01-14-05, 04:15 PM
But yoru avoiding the question, what makes the white race that you so cavalierly define?
Or rather, why bother posting, since you cant say that individual differences are sympotmatic of "race"?

Gravity
01-14-05, 04:21 PM
Hey angry boy (JB) - what do you think of Jewish people? Muslims? Christians? Eskimos? Nazis?

J.B
01-14-05, 04:23 PM
But yoru avoiding the question, what makes the white race that you so cavalierly define?
Or rather, why bother posting, since you cant say that individual differences are sympotmatic of "race"?
By January 1, 2003, all current surveys must comply with the 1997 revisions to the Office of Management and Budget's standards for data on race and ethnicity, which establish a minimum of five categories for race: American Indian or Alaska Native, Asian, Black or African American, Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander, and White. Respondents will be able to select one or more of these racial categories. The minimum categories for ethnicity will be Hispanic or Latino and Not Hispanic or Latino. Tabulations of the racial categories will be shown as long as they meet agency standards for data quality and confidentiality protection. For most surveys, however, tables will show data at most for the White, Black, and Asian populations.

http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/race/racefactcb.html

J.B
01-14-05, 04:27 PM
Hey angry boy (JB) - what do you think of Jewish people? Muslims? Christians? Eskimos? Nazis?
Jewish = Cool

Muslims = Suck

Christians = Cool

Eskimos = Cool

Nazis = Suck

duendy
01-14-05, 04:32 PM
Let's see, you make up a false statement about how the White race was a (soul-less and artless culture) before comming in contact with Africans, and I'm the racist?
A racist is one who make's up false statement of another race.

I have made NO false statements, stop feeling sorry for blacks and deal with reality.

I don't feel sorry for blacks, i feel sorry for you. get THAT striaght

Also, i AM more openminded than you. i do like European culture, regarding some of its music, art, etc. but NOT its opressive mechansitic soul-less 'science'. which is destroying Nature

i like Beethoven Mozart, and many modern white performers. many of them as you know very influenced by African culture, Irish culture, and so on......all an openminded mixture. influencing each other. i am all for that

what i am not all for is your offensive attitude that really just propigates racism

J.B
01-14-05, 04:42 PM
Also, i AM more openminded than you. i do like European culture, regarding some of its music, art, etc. but NOT its opressive mechansitic soul-less 'science'. which is destroying Nature.


http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/haiti/haiti-trees.htm

Ophiolite
01-14-05, 05:17 PM
JB, contrary to whatever the US Office of Management and Budget may think there really isn't any tangible thing such as race. No reputable anthropologist or human geneticist would entertain the notion today.
There are intelligent people and stupid ones, informed individuals and those who are ignorant. Those who fit into the first category in each of these pairings will readily discern where you have placed yourself.

J.B
01-14-05, 05:20 PM
JB, contrary to whatever the US Office of Management and Budget may think there really isn't any tangible thing such as race. No reputable anthropologist or human geneticist would entertain the notion today.
There are intelligent people and stupid ones, informed individuals and those who are ignorant. Those who fit into the first category in each of these pairings will readily discern where you have placed yourself. Does that mean I qualify for Affirmitve Action too?

zyncod
01-14-05, 05:29 PM
It's really kind of sad that skin color is the most heritable trait - nothing else in the sense of the entire body is that reliably passed down from generation to generation. Lots of people have kids that are incredibly stupid/smart, strong/weak, or introverted/extroverted compared to themselves (despite how smart, strong, and sociable parents think their kids are). If that much of a difference can happen between parents and children, there is no way an entire race of people can be said to be really any different from another. A black extended family will follow the same normal distribution as a white extended family as an Asian extended family as an....
If skin color wasn't as reliably passed down as it is we could stop wasting time with "races" and instead start to deal with "cultures," which is the real issue that everybody thinks of when this subject comes up, anyway. I mean, come on, does anybody think that there is an actual gene for ability to dance that black people have and white people don't? Besides (and there really have been studies proving this), everybody on the planet today can directly trace their ancestry to Charlemagne and Genghis Khan. That being true, how much can anyone really think "race" means?
-Oh and BTW, you are listening to a molecular biologist that has NO patience for most of the "environmentally-derived" traits crap that psychologists and secular humanists put out there

goofyfish
01-14-05, 05:32 PM
It is quite apparent that neither side will change their viewpoint, and the discussion is
beginning to travel away from the originally intended topic. This thread is being closed.