where is god? - SciForums.com

Medicine*Woman

11-04-03, 07:38 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Laser Eyes
[B]MW, you've got it all wrong. God is a real person who lives in heaven. He thinks, he feels, he has a personality. He is not some kind of ethereal lifeforce that dwells within humans.

"God is a real person who lives in heaven." Hmmm....

What's God's address?
Does God live in an upscale neighborhood?
What size shoe does God wear? (or is it sandal?)
Does God have a wife and kids?
Do God's kids attend to school in heaven?
What kind of car does God drive? (I'm looking for a new car.)
Where does God buy gasoline in heaven?
Does God have an office where he does his God work?

"He thinks, he feels, he has a personality." Okay....

Does God kick back in a chair & watch TV when he gets home from work?
What kind of food does God like?
Does his wife make God take out the garbage?
Does God mow his own lawn or do angels mow it for him?
Does God get weekends off?
Where does God go on vacation if heaven is the best place to be?
What religion is God?
Does God have his own church in heaven, or does he go elsewhere?
Can God get hemmorrhoids in heaven?

"He is not some kind of ethereal lifeforce that dwells within humans."

Then why are we here?
Where does our soul come from?
What is the purpose of our life?
What happens to us when we die?
Does God have a preference for certain human beings?
Does God have a long white beard and wear a white toga?
Is God a Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist or Catholic?
Who is God's best friend?
Does God like any particular humans?
Does God visit earth?
How does God get here when he visits?
Does God just visit churches or does he visit people?
When God visits churches, does he put money in the collection plate?
What does God's wife call him?
Does God believe human beings are spiritually dead?
Why is God and Lucifer both called "the Morningstar?

You seem to know God on a personal basis. I think we'd all like to hear your answers.

VitalOne

11-04-03, 07:58 PM

If God = Infinity, then there are several possibilities. God could be the entire universe , which is spatialy flat or infinite according to mathematical models. Or God could be all of consciousness which is also infinite.

Yes

11-04-03, 08:05 PM

Spatially flat? Is that some new theory? Because what I've read it's certainly not flat, and not infinite either. It's bulgy and finite. What lies beyond the universe nobody knows, so probably nothing, the BIG NOTHING.

Medicine*Woman

11-04-03, 08:16 PM

Originally posted by VitalOne
If God = Infinity, then there are several possibilities. God could be the entire universe , which is spatialy flat or infinite according to mathematical models. Or God could be all of consciousness which is also infinite.

Yes, God=Infinity. God=Universe. I don't know about "spatially flat" whatever that is. I see God as the upward spiral of consciousness=reality.

SnakeLord

11-04-03, 11:07 PM

He shares a flat with Santa Claus, and both of them get to bonk the tooth fairy at weekends.

Laser Eyes

11-05-03, 01:54 AM

Originally posted by dagaz
Why limit God to our limits? Surely God, by definition, must be limitless. Saying that God is a real person, that he thinks and feels and has a personality is not to limit him to human abilities. God himself tells us that he thinks but not like a human: "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." - Isaiah 55:9 God himself tells us that he feels emotions. Before the flood the wickedness of man caused God to feel regret that he had created us: "And the Lord was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and he was grieved in his heart." - Genesis 6:6 God can get angry: "So the anger of the Lord was kindled against Moses ..." - Exodus 4:14; "But the children of Israel committed a trespass regarding the accursed things; ... so the anger of the Lord burned against the children of Israel." - Joshua 7:1 Although he can grow angry God does say that he is slow to anger: "But you are God, ready to pardon, gracious and merciful, slow to anger, abundant in loving kindness." - Nehemiah 9:17 God also says he can hate: "You hate all workers of iniquity. You shall destroy those who speak falsehood. The Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man." - Psalm 5:5-6 But above all else God says his primary motivation is love: "He who does not love does not know God, for God is love." - 1 John 4:8 God need not by definition be limitless. Indeed there is at least one thing that God can not do. God says he can not lie: Titus 1:2

I'll get back to you about your questions MW.

yinyinwang

11-05-03, 04:29 AM

If god is a person, how can a person control the universe? To control the movement of a tiny particle? Or is the particle out of God's control?

spuriousmonkey

11-05-03, 04:46 AM

Apparently god likes to hang around in churches and mosques, because that is where the religious people gather in copious quantities.

Laser Eyes

11-05-03, 05:56 AM

If god is a person, how can a person control the universe? To control the movement of a tiny particle? Or is the particle out of God's control?God is not a person like us. God is a spirit, invisible to us. He has great power and energy, so much that if we looked at God we would die. The Bible says that no man has seen God. Every little thing in the universe is under God's control, from the farthest star to the air you are breathing right now. The food you ate today was given to you by God. The spinning of the earth and the gravity that keeps you from flying off into space is maintained constantly by God. We live right now only by God's will.

Cyperium

11-05-03, 06:53 AM

God is, don't try to define God. That's what I believe is the meaning of "I AM".

I believe as Medicine*Woman that the kingdom of God is within. Jesus compared it with the smallest seed that's going to grow to be the largest. Remember also, that the smallest part is the foundation of everything.

I believe God is everywhere.

Nothing is not what's outside the universe, nothing can't be anywhere. Something must be outside, we can't have something exist in nothing can we?

Jenyar

11-05-03, 07:59 AM

Yes, the kingdom of God is within those who are fit to be its citizens. That means accepting Him as King. If you are its king, or humanity is its king, then it's your kingdom or the kingdom of humanity as opposed to God's kingdom.

God can be everywhere, but once again He alone decides where He lives and where He chooses not to be. It is called God's presence (Shekinah) - which used to rest in the Temple, in the Holy of Holies.

God is the Place of the universe - it "inhabits" Him. But He decides where in the universe to reveal Himself. Anything else impies He has no will, and depends on us to tell Him what He can do and what He can't do - then "His" voice is your own. That's no god at all.

yinyinwang

11-05-03, 10:51 AM

Originally posted by Medicine*Woman
God is One. The One Spirit of God dwells within the soul of the human race. "The kingdom of God is within," so nobody had to die to give us this life force.
If god is only within, who cares the outside?

Medicine*Woman

11-05-03, 12:14 PM

Originally posted by yinyinwang
If god is only within, who cares the outside?

Since the One Spirit of God is omnipresent, it is everywhere in creation including in the lowest worm. The One Spirit of God moves through and within the human race through our intelligence. Therefore, we are co-creators with the One Spirit of God whereas plants and animals and rocks, let's say, are not co-creators like humans are. They just exist. We make things happen.

VitalOne

11-05-03, 05:01 PM

Regarding the universe questions, see this post - http://sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30033
According to the people in the cosmology section, the current theory is that the universe is infinite and always was.

yinyinwang

11-06-03, 04:01 AM

Originally posted by Medicine*Woman
Since the One Spirit of God is omnipresent, it is everywhere in creation including in the lowest worm. The One Spirit of God moves through and within the human race through our intelligence. Therefore, we are co-creators with the One Spirit of God whereas plants and animals and rocks, let's say, are not co-creators like humans are. They just exist. We make things happen.
good and bad.

Jenyar

11-06-03, 04:25 AM

Originally posted by yinyinwang
good and bad.
Actually very profound...

Silent Beauty

11-06-03, 10:36 PM

If someone finds God, can you tell him/her I've been waiting for a long time for him/her to answer my questions!!!

Jenyar

11-07-03, 01:07 AM

Originally posted by Silent Beauty
If someone finds God, can you tell him/her I've been waiting for a long time for him/her to answer my questions!!!
Have you tried asking his answers?

yinyinwang

11-07-03, 08:21 AM

finding an answer takes too much effort, sit and wait is a smart strategy, don't you think so?

Jenyar

11-07-03, 09:10 AM

The finding is in the seeking

Medicine*Woman

11-07-03, 12:10 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Silent Beauty
[B]If someone finds God, can you tell him/her I've been waiting for a long time for him/her to answer my questions!!!
----------
M*W: Welcome, Silent Beauty! Back in 1978, when I was a devout Catholic, I ventured out to find myself, my identity, my purpose, and my role in Catholicism, etc., I had an unexpected revelation--I found God! It was then I realized that I did not know the God I thought I knew--the Christian God. Strangely concidental, I was visiting Rome and was in St. Peter's when this revelation occured. Since then, I have found the true meaning of the One Spirit of God, and its purpose in our lives. I found the answers to all my questions. It was like a blindfold had been taken off my eyes for the first time, and I could see the truth! The point is, you don't have to go looking for God somewhere "out there." The "kingdom of God is within," and God dwells in the body of the human race. The picture is so clear now. I hope this helps!

Silent Beauty

11-07-03, 01:59 PM

Originally posted by Medicine*Woman
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Silent Beauty
[B]If someone finds God, can you tell him/her I've been waiting for a long time for him/her to answer my questions!!!
----------
M*W: Welcome, Silent Beauty! Back in 1978, when I was a devout Catholic, I ventured out to find myself, my identity, my purpose, and my role in Catholicism, etc., I had an unexpected revelation--I found God! It was then I realized that I did not know the God I thought I knew--the Christian God. Strangely concidental, I was visiting Rome and was in St. Peter's when this revelation occured. Since then, I have found the true meaning of the One Spirit of God, and its purpose in our lives. I found the answers to all my questions. It was like a blindfold had been taken off my eyes for the first time, and I could see the truth! The point is, you don't have to go looking for God somewhere "out there." The "kingdom of God is within," and God dwells in the body of the human race. The picture is so clear now. I hope this helps!

Wow! Thanks for the welcome, M.W. (((HUGS))) ^^"

That's a real nice story! But unfortunately, I'm not going to be going to St. Peter anytime soon. Though I'd love to be spiritually aware as you are. *sigh* I'd LOVE to get revelations like that though!

Jenyar, that's a very witty reply you know. Have you done it yourself? ^^"

yinyinwang, Hmmmm. contemplation. Sort of like the guy in the statue who puts his hand on his chin. Well uh. I'll be like old and gray and dead by then. O_O

Medicine*Woman

11-07-03, 03:17 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Silent Beauty
[B]Wow! Thanks for the welcome, M.W. (((HUGS))) ^^"

That's a real nice story! But unfortunately, I'm not going to be going to St. Peter anytime soon. Though I'd love to be spiritually aware as you are. *sigh* I'd LOVE to get revelations like that though!

Jenyar, that's a very witty reply you know. Have you done it yourself? ^^"

yinyinwang, Hmmmm. contemplation. Sort of like the guy in the statue who puts his hand on his chin. Well uh. I'll be like old and gray and dead by then. O_O

Beauty, you don't have to be in religious place or anywhere in particular. Wherever you are, there is God.

yinyinwang

11-08-03, 02:44 AM

S.Beauty;
Sometimes I put my hand on beauty chins too.

Medicine*Woman

11-08-03, 03:56 PM

Originally posted by yinyinwang
S.Beauty;
Sometimes I put my hand on beauty chins too.

M*W: I just love the way you so innocently express yourself!

Medicine*Woman

11-08-03, 04:17 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cyperium
[B]God is, don't try to define God. That's what I believe is the meaning of "I AM".

I believe as Medicine*Woman that the kingdom of God is within. Jesus compared it with the smallest seed that's going to grow to be the largest. Remember also, that the smallest part is the foundation of everything.

I believe God is everywhere.

Nothing is not what's outside the universe, nothing can't be anywhere. Something must be outside, we can't have something exist in nothing can we?
----------
M*W: Thank you, Cyperium, for your enlightened agreement.

Medicine*Woman

11-08-03, 04:37 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jenyar
[B]Yes, the kingdom of God is within those who are fit to be its citizens. That means accepting Him as King. If you are its king, or humanity is its king, then it's your kingdom or the kingdom of humanity as opposed to God's kingdom.
----------
M*W: Jenyar judging again! The entire human race is God's creation for the only purpose of being a vessel which contains the One Spirit of God on Earth. I accept the One Spirit of God as my Creator. Again, you've bastardized what I've said, so I'll say it again so everyone will know what a liar you are: The One Spirit of God dwells within the body of the entire human race. "The kingdom of God is within," quoted Jesus. God doesn't have to "decide" where he chooses to be or not to be. God is omnipresent in everything in creation. We decide the degree of God's presence in our lives. We are accountable for the negativity we allow in our lives which displaces the One Spirit of God, the perfect energy, ultimate life force, in us.
----------
God can be everywhere, but once again He alone decides where He lives and where He chooses not to be. It is called God's presence (Shekinah) - which used to rest in the Temple, in the Holy of Holies.
----------
M*W: The Shekinah is the word for the One Spirit of God that dwells within us. Our body is the temple, the Holy of Holies. The human race is evolving not only physically but spiritually toward Homo spiritus as the Shekinah enlightens us, we become the messiah, God's perfect creation.
----------
God is the Place of the universe - it "inhabits" Him. But He decides where in the universe to reveal Himself. Anything else impies He has no will, and depends on us to tell Him what He can do and what He can't do - then "His" voice is your own. That's no god at all.
----------
M*W: God is the universe. The universe is God. One and the same. We are the vessel of God. The human race is the face of God on Earth. We are One with the Spirit of God for eternity. It is only Jenyar who rejects the One Spirit of God in his life, which is spiritually empty. He's an empty vessel crying "Jesus this, Jesus that," yet he makes no room in his soul for the One Spirit of God. Jenyar's soul is a vacuum of negativity. Who would want to believe anything Jenyar says? He is an empty vessel. Useless to humanity, and useless to himself. Most disgustingly, he's useless to God.

yinyinwang

11-09-03, 01:45 AM

Originally posted by Medicine*Woman
M*W: I just love the way you so innocently express yourself!
being natural is my principle and pretending is a burden to my soul.

Morteza Olangui

11-09-03, 04:15 AM

Hi:
Right next to me I have a book of quotations by outstanding African-Amricans compiled by Anthony Robins. There it says:
People see God evreyday, but they don`t recognise Him.
By Perl Billy.
P.S. I am quoting the traslated copy of the book. thanks

Medicine*Woman

11-09-03, 12:04 PM

Originally posted by Morteza Olangui
Hi:
Right next to me I have a book of quotations by outstanding African-Amricans compiled by Anthony Robins. There it says:
People see God evreyday, but they don`t recognise Him.
By Perl Billy.
P.S. I am quoting the traslated copy of the book. thanks
----------
M*W: Interesting quote, Morteza. People don't recognize God whom they've seen but believe in Jesus whom they have not seen.

yinyinwang

11-10-03, 02:20 AM

search and find god with you.
improve recognition level to reach him.

Mucker

11-10-03, 05:16 AM

Where is god? All around us...probably. Monotheism traditionally views God as something that has a mind (for judging) and a soul (for understanding), but has no body. Thus one will not be able to see 'God'.

LostInThought7

11-10-03, 07:08 AM

Originally posted by Laser Eyes
God himself tells us that he thinks but not like a human...

No, Isaiah tells us that he thinks but not like a human.
Originally posted by Laser Eyes
God himself tells us that he feels emotions...

According to Moses...
Originally posted by Laser Eyes
God says he can not lie...

If God=Paul then, yes, God did say that.
Come on Laser Eyes, I fear that you are wasting our time; give us one good reason to believe any of these men. Better yet, don't. I'm getting sick of these arguments.

Getting to the question at hand: God, more than likely, does not exist, not as an external, conscious being or as an internal, spiritual being (sorry MW). God is probably just an invention of the intellegent, longing, human mind. God is a moral of a story, a happy ending, nothing more.

yinyinwang

11-10-03, 07:16 AM

we can only feel the force of god or the presents of god will. but we can not see such a powerful figure, I doublt if human being has the organ to detect god directly.

SnakeLord

11-10-03, 11:13 AM

So then ummmmm how did the shepherds in the bible manage it? Guess they didn't, in which case they were just making it all up.

Godless

11-10-03, 10:08 PM

A legitament question, of an unsupported theory! the God Theory, no less. Making a word without definition be a being of supernatural qualities, that only exists as a subjective weak minded men.

God is in your pheble little mind!!.

yinyinwang

11-11-03, 02:02 AM

Originally posted by Godless
A legitament question, of an unsupported theory! the God Theory, no less. Making a word without definition be a being of supernatural qualities, that only exists as a subjective weak minded men.

God is in your pheble little mind!!.
Pros and cons are at least on equal footing in cognition, if not better, so god will not be felt by your low mind, like animal do not what is laser.

Godless

11-11-03, 05:12 AM

The god theory is a remnant of an ancient mind. My suggestion to you is to learn where the god theory derives from. Anthropology is needed to be studied for such a task, understanding the mind of Neanderthals, and then later early versions of our ancestors Homo Sapiens. I will recommend a good source of literature. Julian Jaynes, here is one perspective of a reader of his:

http://www.anatomy.usyd.edu.au/danny/anthropology/sci.anthropology/archive/january-1995/0004.html

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/anthony.campbell1/essays/skeptic/jaynes.html

I didn't mean to offend, I was only stating the facts!!. God lives in the pheble mind of man.

MISSunderstanding@

11-11-03, 05:16 AM

Hi :
He is where you ask for Him. If you did not find Him, then examine your heart. Maybe you have not asked keenly enough.
If you come to get near to Him , you will surely love Him as He loves you. But you must be patient. What I am going to say, I am not sure about it but I say it: He is unique but He appears to every one according to his/her potentials.
As you go to school and you learn things class by class, it is the same with Him. Patience, Patience and Patience.
May the Lord God bless you all. Amen thanks

yinyinwang

11-11-03, 05:23 AM

"God less"
What do you think? Can you give a reason for your conclusion?
If you read the articles provided by yourself and qualify yourself for understanding the articles yourself before recommanding them to others. Otherwise I can give you tons of things to bury you.

I am not sure if you know what you are doing.

Godless

11-11-03, 09:58 PM

Your last post, was it a joke?.

Well I surely laughed, if you lack understanding, I'm not here to be your teacher. I was self tought, teach yourself. I've read the book, I own it, I highly recomend it. it only cost $18 bucks go pick it up at here: http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/results.asp?WRD=Julian+Jaynes&userid=2TVLDDCNN9&cds2Pid=946

Obviously you know how to read, so read!.

You can burry me, Please.

Remember the first three letters of my name!!
GodLess.

yinyinwang

11-12-03, 02:37 AM

Godless
Where is your argument for your conclusion?
Why don'y you say you write it?
You want to get buried? Then use google by inputing the word god, you got buried instantly.
So enjoy it.
I am not sure if you can read because you never show a point except for selling books.

Godless

11-12-03, 05:35 AM

You are either too ignorant too have missed it, or just plain didn't understand it!!.

Religion, the god theory, are remnants of ancient men.

Julian Jaynes explains the theory of bicameral mind, not on a whim, but by study of anthropology, in it he proves the mentality of ancient men, differs from ours.

The bicameral consciousness did not evolve into counsciousness of modern men, it was a discovery apx, 3000 years ago, men learned to think for himself, with out having autosuggestion.

The proof of this is written in your own bible, read it well. Not the new testament. Julian Jaynes, explain how the bible also makes this transition from autoconsciousness, to self awarness. The words of god (I AM) here explain were men has discovered self conusciousness.

You want to get buried.
Write on Google (god theory)
And like Emmeril (Baaaammm!!)

Jenyar

11-12-03, 06:52 AM

Religion, the god theory, are remnants of ancient men.
That's a very vague statement. There are at least three possibilities one has to account for: "god theory" - let's call it god awareness, to indicate the impulse, rather than the rationalization of it -
1) was the culmination of an evolutionary consciousness, a developed faculty, similar to aesthetics and reason, called "spirituality"; which either
2) progressed into "god theories" like the ones visible today
3) diminished until it is now on the verge of becoming irrelevant as a useful faculty.

In other words, if spiritual awareness is an artifact of the past -
Did it culminate in ancient cultures?
Did it progress naturally until then?
Does it degress naturally today?

Because if it is a side product of reasoning, it must develop along with it, not inversely to it. If it's not, then what makes it any different than self awareness?

yinyinwang

11-12-03, 07:02 AM

Originally posted by Godless
You are either too ignorant too have missed it, or just plain didn't understand it!!.

Religion, the god theory, are remnants of ancient men.
What about this: you are "remnants of ancient men", dose this prove anything.

Julian Jaynes explains the theory of bicameral mind, not on a whim, but by study of anthropology, in it he proves the mentality of ancient men, differs from ours.

The bicameral consciousness did not evolve into counsciousness of modern men, it was a discovery apx, 3000 years ago, men learned to think for himself, with out having autosuggestion.
.
you seem unable to distinguish conclusions from evidence.
these are conclusions based on some theory by some one, but what evidence are these conclusion drawn upon? Upon some theory? Where is the fact?
If you read the book and know the facts, then tell for example.

The proof of this is written in your own bible, read it well. Not the new testament. Julian Jaynes, explain how the bible also makes this transition from autoconsciousness, to self awarness. The words of god (I AM) here explain were men has discovered self conusciousness.

You want to get buried.
Write on Google (god theory)
And like Emmeril (Baaaammm!!)
Since the book is recommanded by some a joker, that proves that the book is worthless.

Yes

11-12-03, 08:16 AM

Originally posted by Godless

God is in your pheble little mind!!.

Even IF God only existed in this way God would still be a very large being. So many pheble minds out there...

Godless

11-12-03, 06:10 PM

Is there a rational explanation of what god is?

For example, if an alien race arrives here, and we tell them we worship a god, That we can not see, we can not prove, we can not know his,hers, it's existence, nor that he, it, she, exists. But trust us we have *faith* that god exists!! This alien race would arrive at, The we are pheble minded creatures that have yet, to evolve. They are not wrong.

To be self aware, is not to arrive at god. Self awarness led to spirituality, but not at the sence of religious spirituality.

God: They claim that they perceive a mode of being superior to your existence on this earth. The mystics of spirits call it "another dimension" which consists of denying dimensions. The mystics of muscle call it "the future," which consists of denying the present. To exist is to possess identity. What identity are they able to to give to their superior realm? They keep telling you what is not, but never tell you what it is. All their identifications consists of negating: God is that which no human mind can know, they say--and proceed to demand that you consider it knowledge--God is non-man, heaven is non-earth, soul is non-body, virtue is non-profit, A is non-A, perception is non-sensory, knowledge is non-reason. Their definitions, are not acts of defining, but of wiping out. Ayn Rand.

Remnants of the bicameral mind exist in every human brain. Those remnants cause a desire for guidance by outside or external "authorities". Dr. Frank R. Wallace Neo-Tech Lit.

To further explain my argument read this: The Origins of Mysticism

http://www.neo-tech.com/zero/part4.html

yinyinwang, you are quiet correct, I am remnant of ancient men, I too had to defeat, conquer my mysticism by discovering what was wrong I was able to overcome hardship of bicameral mind. My apolegies, for mentioning "ignorance" I too had ignorance, though I never quit searching to enlighten my atheistic mind.

The day I quit learning, is the day I die!!
Godless.

VitalOne

11-12-03, 06:22 PM

To exist is to possess identity

Something can exist that cannot be identified or detected by our senses. For instance, if you cannot see the entire universe you wouldn't say that it didn't exist.

Godless

11-12-03, 07:10 PM

When she makes this statement she is not speaking of objects, is a rock self aware?, she is speaking of human consciousness. To exist is to be aware of self. To know thy self is to identify one self.

What identity has this phenemonon, called god given?. Only that we can not know him,it,her?. If something exists that we have not identified, has it? is it self aware, does it know its own identity?. If it does then it possess self consciousness.

(Something can exist that cannot be identified or detected by our senses.)

It is a large universe, there are probably millions of things that exist that we don't know about or we have yet to identify. This does nothing to disprove that if (you) exist you have identity!!.

Do you exist?. then you have identity. (self aware) I know you exist, do you?.

How can you prove to me that "god" exist?. what identity can you justify for it's existence? how can (it) prove to me! (it) is real and tha it exists!!.

Faith?. LOL. give me a break!!.

VitalOne

11-12-03, 08:13 PM

Originally posted by Godless
When she makes this statement she is not speaking of objects, is a rock self aware?, she is speaking of human consciousness. To exist is to be aware of self. To know thy self is to identify one self.

What identity has this phenemonon, called god given?. Only that we can not know him,it,her?. If something exists that we have not identified, has it? is it self aware, does it know its own identity?. If it does then it possess self consciousness.

(Something can exist that cannot be identified or detected by our senses.)

It is a large universe, there are probably millions of things that exist that we don't know about or we have yet to identify. This does nothing to disprove that if (you) exist you have identity!!.

Do you exist?. then you have identity. (self aware) I know you exist, do you?.

How can you prove to me that "god" exist?. what identity can you justify for it's existence? how can (it) prove to me! (it) is real and tha it exists!!.

Faith?. LOL. give me a break!!.

What is this "identity" you speak of? Are you saying that for something to exist, it has to have an identity? What is this "existance" you speak of? If you are speaking of physical identity, then Ayn's wrong, things can exist that cannot be identified physically. If you are saying that if you exist, you have an identity, there is no way to prove or disprove that.

As for "god", I can say almost anything that scientifically exist is god, like light, the universe, all of consciousness, absolute reality, etc..

one_raven

11-12-03, 09:02 PM

"Where is God?"?

I think it is obvious.

He is in Tampa, of course.

He is a really old, retired Jewish man.
Where else would be be?

Godless

11-12-03, 10:00 PM

Raven thanks for throwing humor!!

Do you have identity?. when you see yourself in the mirror, what do you see?. can you *identify* the image in the mirror?.

THAT IDENTITY

Things exist, that we've not identified. But are these things SELF AWARE!!, ARE THEY INANIMATE OBJECTS OR PHYSICAL BEIGN?

Communication breakdown? I agreed with you that there are probably millions of things that exist we've not identified, this is not what she speaks of. SHE SPEAKS OF SELF AWARNESS!!!and of how you are able to represent that identity to others!!. Can god materialize itself unto me?. NO!!!

Let me catch my breath from laughter for a minute: pin point this one for you:

(If you are saying that if you exist, you have an identity, there is no way to prove or disprove that.)

Hey!! these are not words we have no way to (identify) if they exist or not?
How idiotic is that?. Pendejo, the only way to prove non existence is by not existing!! which oviously you can't do. Unless you see no image of yourself in the mirror!!. Are you dead?.

yinyinwang

11-13-03, 02:14 AM

"yinyinwang, you are quiet correct, I am remnant of ancient men, I too had to defeat, conquer my mysticism by discovering what was wrong I was able to overcome hardship of bicameral mind. My apolegies, for mentioning "ignorance" I too had ignorance, though I never quit searching to enlighten my atheistic mind. "

Godless:
Since you make it big topic about proving things, here is my personal website, if you like, go and take a look:
http://yinyinwang.bravepages.com

I did not believe in God a year ago and the reason was obvious that no one has ever seen god and there is no direct evidence linking to its existance, like footprint, a photo-picture, or a bone, etc.
But I suggest that you imagine that if you were god and you want to prove your existance to your creatures, how would you like to do it?

And can anyone prove that there is any natural law existing at all?

Godless

11-13-03, 09:21 PM

I can't imagine to be a god, how can I imagine to be a being supposedly omnipotent, and yet contradict my self?.

http://www.anatheist.com/Articles/god_contradictions.html

How can I be benevolent, and yet let suffering occur?

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/rm.html#Evil

No!!

Yin!!

I canot imagine being a monster of this magnitude!!.

Julio.

yinyinwang

11-14-03, 01:49 AM

Remeber that the original sins, no one is innocent in god's eyes,
And i don't think god is totally free in his creation, for example, the materials available for his design are limited. So here comes the tragedy, with merits there are drawbacks. There is some hateful drawback with the pitiful creature. That is god' dilema. You prefer god to create or not?
That is your problem too.

Godless

11-14-03, 05:29 AM

The "original sin" bit that is an insult to my intelegence!!

How the hell can a baby be sinful?, because he came to be from desire, love, sex?

Original Sin: Your code begins by damning man as evil, then demands that he practice a good which it defines as imposible for him to practice. It demands, as his first proof of virtue, that he accept his own depravity without proof. It demands that he start, not with a standard of value, but with a standard of evil, which is himself, by means of which he is then to define the good: the good is that which he is not.
It does not matter who then becomes the profiteer on his renounced glory and tormented soul, a mystic God with some imcomprehensible design or any passser-by whose roting sores are held as some inexplicable claim upon him--it does not matter, the good is not for him to understand, his duty is to crawl through years of penance, atoning for the guilt of his existence to any stray collector of unintellegible debts, his only concept of a value is a zero: the good is that which is non-man. The name of this monstrous absurdity is Original Sin.
A sin without volition is a slap at morality and an insolent contradiction in terms: that which is outside the possibility of choice is outside the province of morality. If man is evil by birth, he has no will, no power to change it; if he has no will, he can neither be good or evil; a robot is amoral. To hold, as man's sin a fact not open to his choice is a mockery of nature. To punish him for a crime he committed before he was born is a mockery of justice. To hold him quilty in a matter where no innoncense exists is a mockery of reason. To destroy morality, nature, justice and reason by means of a single concept is a feat of evil hardly to be matched. Yet that is the root of your code.
Do not hide behind the cowardly evansion that man is born with free will, but with a "tendency" to evil. A free will saddled with a tendency is like a game with loaded dice. It forces man to struggle through the effort of playing, to bear responsiblity and pay for the game, but the decision is weighted in favor of a tendency that he had no power to escape. If the tendence is of choice, he cannot possess it at birth; if it is not of his choice, his will is not free.
What is the nature of the quilt your teachers call his Original Sin?
What are the evils man acquired when he fell from a state they consider perfection? Their myth declares that he ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge--he acquired a mind and became a rational beign. It was the knowledge of good and evil--he became a moral beign. He was sentenced to earn his bread by his labor--he became a productive being. He was sentenced to experience desire--he acquired the capacity of sexual enjoyment. The evils for which they damn him are reason, morality, creativeness, joy--all the cardinals values of his existence. It is not his vices that their myth of man's fall is design to explain and condemn, it is not his errors that they hold as his quilt, but the essence of his nature as man. Whatever he was--that robot in the Garden of Eden, who existed without mind, without values, without labor, without love--he was not man.
Man's fall, according to your teachers, was that he gained the virtues required to live. These virtues, by their own standard, are his Sin. His evil, they charge, is that he's man. His quilt, they charge, is that he lives.
Ayn Rand

Explain then to me after reading above, and comprehending it. Without taken sentences out of context, that your god, is a benevolent, creature?.

If the words are true, (that god created man in his own image.) and god is perfect, but we are not. Then we are not created by his image. Your god is a liar!. Religion is only a remnant of the bicameral mind. (evolve!)

Godless.

Jenyar

11-14-03, 06:03 AM

To quote Ayn Rand herself: "Reality exists as an objective absolute — facts are facts independent of man’s feelings, wishes, hopes or fears." - the ethics of Ayn Rand (http://www.summit.org/resources/EthicsofAynRand.htm).

Whether you agree that God is a reality is not the question right now, but whether He could be described as benevolent if (original) sin is a reality.

Sin is the separation between God and man. This separation is illustrated by Adam and Eve's choice not to heed God's warning about the temptation of evil, and their subsequent exile from life with God. All their children - the human race - are born into this exile, a "world without God".

Sin is not just "something you did wrong". It is a state of separation that is characterized by all kinds of moral and legal transgressions. The cleanest, purest, most innocent baby is born into this world - it is only its pure nature as image of God that still connects it to God's world and God's life. No wonder the words for "soul" and "divine breath" that are used to describe consciousness of God means simply "to be alive".

If God did not present a way where we could be reconciled with Him in this world, the only salvation would have been to keep ourselves holy (separate from sin) - as those before Christ had no choice but to try. But Christ was also born into this exile, separating himself from God willingly. He was not born of a descendent of Adam, so He did not share a legacy of sin; He knew God as he knew himself, but did not strive to be "God" but to be completely human in the true sense of the word: as God's image. When we recognize that in Him we recognize God, and we recognize his Salvation, which means restoring the possibility of a relationship with Him and forgiving us from our part in sin, which is the "sting" of death - the opposite of life with God.

We are created in God's image - the question is 1) do we recognize it and, 2) do we live like we do?

yinyinwang

11-14-03, 07:53 AM

Gl
maybe the word "sin" is too strong, but to my understanding, by adding the word "original", the context meaning is the potential of being wrong.

yinyinwang

11-14-03, 07:57 AM

maybe we resemble the outlook of god, but the texture is different.

Jenyar

11-14-03, 08:14 AM

"Original sin" is misleading and vague, but unfortunately like the concept of "trinity" it is more or less the only way to distinguish one doctrine from another.

Bear in mind the Bible doesn't really say where sin came from even with the Garden of Eden story. It doesn't specify at which point "sin" actually enters the picture. The story just captures the essence of the problem. Sin's "origin" in Adam is a way of explaining that Adam was just like us, and we are just like him - with one significant difference: Adam had only God's word, because God was his "father", while we all have parents who had parents who had parents - and none of them perfect. Neither are we, and we can't return to Eden without God's grace. We won't evolve out of sin - we need a direct relationship with Him as our Father. Eve wasn't any more or less guilty than Adam, but he is the one credited as the first sinner. They were both equally responsible for not listenng to a creation rather than God.

The real origin of sin is not putting God first in any choice you make.

Cyperium

11-14-03, 08:19 AM

The "original sin" bit that is an insult to my intelegence!!

How the hell can a baby be sinful?, because he came to be from desire, love, sex?The original sin is because we recognize both good and evil (thus temptation is created (and the option to choose the wrong way)). I really don't think a baby is sinful, but I think that during our growth we all eat that apple of knowledge, or maybe we all go through eden at the beginning.

Maybe we thought that we had to eat the apple, to understand the wrong way so we wouldn't follow it, instead of trusting God?

There are many ways to see it, pick one that suits you.

MShark

11-14-03, 01:31 PM

Godless -How can I be benevolent, and yet let suffering occur?

Is suffering a bad thing? What is pleasure without pain or happiness withour sorrow?

Suffering is an important part of being alive. What fun would adventures and sports be if there was no suffering?

Jenyar

11-15-03, 05:18 AM

Originally posted by MShark
Is suffering a bad thing? What is pleasure without pain or happiness withour sorrow?

Suffering is an important part of being alive. What fun would adventures and sports be if there was no suffering?
Absolutely: Suffering is not an absolute.

Godless

11-15-03, 09:37 AM

Christian Comdemnation of Emotions:

Emotions are not subject to condemnation, quilt, or right wrong judgments..only actions are right or wrong. Next to the mystical concept of original sin, perhaps the most pervasively damaging, unjust concept projected by the Christian ethic is the moral judgment of emotions. Especially malevolent and harmfull are the condemnations of emotions such as found in the Sermon on the Mount: "But I say unto you, that whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her, hath commited adultery with her already in his heart.". By condemning human emotions, Christians discovered an effective tool to condemn everyone..to make everyone quilty, keeping them more controllable for usurping power and values. Since everyone by nature possesses a full range of automatic feelings or emotions that cannot be directly controlled, shut off or stopped, nearly everyone is victimized by Christian-style "sin" and "quilt".
While everyone innocently experiences negative, irrational emotions, no one ever has to act on such emotions. And since only human actions are subject to choice, only human actions (not emotions) are subject to moral judgement.
Dr. Frank R. Wallace Neo-Tech Publishing.

MShark: do you expect to suffer in heaven?(if you been good, & tried to live by Jesus ethcis*)*inconprehensibel ethics, What is the point of heaven if you can't suffer there as well?.

Yin: as the statements above by Dr Wallace, sin is nothing more than an attack on human emotions, this is a technigue used by many usurpers from past and present, not only by church but as well by the state. In reality sin is just a tool to control human emotions by other authorities who want power over you.

Never forget the words of an Eddie Murphy movie (Coming to America) when in the church to raise money the priest says on to its congregation:

DIG DEEP IN YOUR POCKETS, AND REMEMBER WE RATHER HAVE THE KIND THAT FOLDS, RATHER THAN THE KIND THAT GINGLES!!

Yin that is the purpose of your leaders, to attack your emotions via sin, to make you a slave, of their impossible ethic code of what they dictate human righthousness should be, and to make you pay, pay, pay and pay for their well being!!

When have you ever seen a priest driving a Yugo in America?.

Here these SOB's drive Lexus, Mercedes, live in $100,000 homes, while their congregation that supports them can hardly make ends meet!!!.
Is that ethical?

yinyinwang

11-15-03, 10:14 AM

Godless:
please note that what I believe is not the same thing as what the churches are doing, these are two topics.

And the notion of original sin and the exploitation of the notion are different. The first is a cognition problem and the later is a political problem. The first dose not automatically leads to the later, but unfortunely there is such a possibility. So I suggest that you oppose the later, not the former subject.

As to the practice of believf principles in world life, it is much the same as any other principles from any religion or science. We should be careful of those manipulators.

Godless

11-16-03, 11:07 AM

By what you discribe in your last post:

quote: (please note that what I believe is not the same thing as what the churches are doing, these are two topics.)

Then my friend I assume your belives are seperate from any organized religious congregations. This makes you a deist!!.

A deist, believes god created, the universe, earth and all but has no intervention in human actions.

So if this is the case, the word (sin) would not pertain to you, cause the term (sin) is purely an invention of orthodox judeo-christian believes.

Julio.

VitalOne

11-16-03, 02:52 PM

Quantum Physics says that consciousness creates reality, reality doesn't create consciousness. Physical objects would have no properties if a conscious observer was not there watching them. Observers create the reality, the reailty isn't already there. Reality is SUBJECTIVE, since everyone has their own individual senses, thuoghts, ideas, and reality. Facts are just what a bunch of people agree on to be. These "facts" periodically change with new experiments and such. Thus, collasping Ayn Rand's entire philosophy.

VitalOne

11-16-03, 03:05 PM

Let me catch my breath from laughter for a minute: pin point this one for you:

(If you are saying that if you exist, you have an identity, there is no way to prove or disprove that.)

Hey!! these are not words we have no way to (identify) if they exist or not?
How idiotic is that?. Pendejo, the only way to prove non existence is by not existing!! which oviously you can't do. Unless you see no image of yourself in the mirror!!. Are you dead?.

.

Hmm...so a blind man has no identity? He cannot see himself in the mirror, so he's dead? What are you stupid? By seeing myself, I exist? So I guess if I dream about seeing someone, they exist. Or if I vividly visualize something, it exist. How can you prove that you exist? Is it by using your 5 senses which simply interpret electrical signals? That would only prove that electrical signals exist - not you. We observe things with our five senses, but if something exist that our five senses cannot pick up it doesn't "exist" to us. Think about it, if everyone was blind then not everything we see would "exist". We would only be able to intepret things with the rest of our senses.

Godless

11-16-03, 03:25 PM

I dont exist pendejo, you however may exist. why don't you try and put a bullet in your head, maybe this way you can say!! I did exist!!.

A blind man does not see his reflection on the mirror, however he can surely feel his heart beat.

Can you?

Anyhow do you like grabing sentences out of context, then making a whole argument out of nothing?. This is called non-sequitur this is the base of your argument:

I don' know I exist?, if I dream, the characters of my dreams exist?, basically I don't understand that I have an Identity, I go by the name VitalOne, though I don't know what that is, cause I can't prove my existence, Hey!! Godless how can you prove to me you exist?.

Godless: you are unable to prove your own existence? So what is it that you call your life?.

VitalOne

11-16-03, 10:24 PM

Originally posted by Godless
I dont exist pendejo, you however may exist. why don't you try and put a bullet in your head, maybe this way you can say!! I did exist!!.

A blind man does not see his reflection on the mirror, however he can surely feel his heart beat.

Can you?

How is putting a bullet in someone's head going to prove anything? What a moronic statement of yours.

So a man who is paralyzed, blind, and deaf, doesn't exist?

Anyhow do you like grabing sentences out of context, then making a whole argument out of nothing?. This is called non-sequitur this is the base of your argument:

I don' know I exist?, if I dream, the characters of my dreams exist?, basically I don't understand that I have an Identity, I go by the name VitalOne, though I don't know what that is, cause I can't prove my existence, Hey!! Godless how can you prove to me you exist?.

Godless: you are unable to prove your own existence? So what is it that you call your life?.

The sentence wasn't out of context. If that's your interpretation of my argument, then I didn't know what a fool I was dealing with until now.....Instead of responding to my questions, you just make fun of them because you know you can't answer them or counter argue my statements. Instead of using any evidence, you just deny statements.

You based your counter argument on nothing by simply disregarding my argument without any evidence to support anything you said. You simply just took everything I said and denied it. It's ok that you cannot counter my argument using any evidence, it's hard for people like you to accept that Ayn Rand's teachings are flawed.

Can't you supply any evidence or anything? Can you argue intelligently? Or is that too hard of a task for you?

yinyinwang

11-17-03, 01:12 AM

Godless:
I am sorry that I do not fit in your category of deist because I think god may intervene on a large scale event, or big event, or vital event or system event in a very hidden way, but generally, god will not listen to any person's selfish prayers.

Who invented the word is not important. The vital thing is whether it is correct. That is why I use the term in the correct sense, but in order to clear myself of some bad implications of the term, maybe I should invent my own expression.

Godless

11-17-03, 05:29 AM

Look yourself in the mirror the "fool" is the image you see.

I'm not the one asking if I exist, or having doubts about it!!

as long as the paralized man, blind, on a wheelchair, feels his heart beat, he knows that he exists. If he has no consciousness, he had known he existed.

The bullet in your head, would prove beyond reason, that you had an existence.

How moronic is it to ask if one exists or not?.

Here you are a poor shmuck trying to compete with one of the greatest minds of the last century. Ayn Rand. How moronic is that?.

give me a break.

:confused:

everneo

11-17-03, 05:59 AM

Originally posted by Godless
Here you are a poor shmuck trying to compete with one of the greatest minds of the last century. Ayn Rand. How moronic is that?.

Ayn Rand ? Oh that runaway commie, selfish bitch who advocated raping of certain type of girls by certain type of boys with no pretexts. Greatest mind indeed. Only morons would compete with her. who is the moron here.? *oh so many!, runs away* :p

yinyinwang

11-17-03, 06:37 AM

MShark

11-17-03, 09:19 AM

MShark: do you expect to suffer in heaven?(if you been good, & tried to live by Jesus ethcis*)*inconprehensibel ethics, What is the point of heaven if you can't suffer there as well?.

Godless:

I expect heaven will be like Earth only everyone will love one another. What is incoprehensible about "Love God, Love your Neighbor and Love Yourself"

I do not know priests or ministers that dirve around in Lexus's. On the other hand $100,000 would not buy much in my area.

Giving is a good thing.

yinyinwang

11-17-03, 12:37 PM

Originally posted by Godless

Here you are a poor shmuck trying to compete with one of the greatest minds of the last century. Ayn Rand. How moronic is that?.

give me a break.

:confused:
If god is questionable, why not Ayn?

VitalOne

11-17-03, 03:27 PM

Originally posted by Godless
Look yourself in the mirror the "fool" is the image you see.

I'm not the one asking if I exist, or having doubts about it!!

as long as the paralized man, blind, on a wheelchair, feels his heart beat, he knows that he exists. If he has no consciousness, he had known he existed.

The bullet in your head, would prove beyond reason, that you had an existence.

How moronic is it to ask if one exists or not?.

Here you are a poor shmuck trying to compete with one of the greatest minds of the last century. Ayn Rand. How moronic is that?.

give me a break.

:confused:

My original argument was that things can exist that cannot be identified. Then you shift the argument to suit you saying that things exist if they can be identified. Where did I say that things that are identified do not exist? I said there's no way to prove or disprove that if you exist, then you have an identity. I never said you didn't exist, I just said it can't be proven or disproven. Everything you see, feel, touch, hear, and smell is an ELECTRICAL SIGNAL. You would be proving that an electrical signal exists, not you, yourself. I have no doubt that I exist, fool, I said it can't be proven. Man, you really are thick headed.

If I looked in the mirror, the only fool I could see is the reflection of your face.

Ayn Rand, one of the greatest minds? LOL! That's a good joke. Ayn Rand's Objectivism has been proven incorrect. Reality isn't objective, it's subjective and depends on the observer. All reality isn't external to the mind, things can exist that cannot be identified by our senses. To believe that all that exists is what our only 5 senses interpret is laughable. That's like a deaf man saying sound doesn't exist because he cannot hear it. We interpret what we can, but not all that's there.

Godless

11-18-03, 05:34 AM

Sure she is, she never claimed to be god.

Was she a type of person everneo depicts?

She might of been, however she was able to define a phylosophy, in all aspects and give it a name, were is the phylosophical writings of Everneo?. Shmuck!! or Pendejo Vitalzero?. Pun intended, if one questions his own existence, one can't be called "one"!.

http://www.fullcontext.org/Objectivism/aynrand.htm

Vitalone:
states:My original argument was that things can exist that cannot be identified. Then you shift the argument to suit you saying that things exist if they can be identified.

Hey look back at said statements, learn to read and pay attention. You took the sentence out of context. I agreed with your ignoramous mind that there exists plenty of substances we have not yet identified.

THAT IS NOT WHAT SHE WAS TALKING ABOUT

However really thinking how can I argue with some poor shmuck who is questioning his own existence?.

The literal meaning of having you try and put a bullet in your head, is that I know you wouldn't do it!!

Because you Vitalone have a conscious a sence of self, one that you are determined to preserve. Why? because you have a sence of "I" therefore you have IDENTITY.

On another note, Hey Vitalone, the Matrix was just a movie!! not reality. ok.

Godless

11-18-03, 05:44 AM

Vitalzero:
Ayn Rand, one of the greatest minds? LOL! That's a good joke. Ayn Rand's Objectivism has been proven incorrect. Reality isn't objective, it's subjective and depends on the observer. All reality isn't external to the mind, things can exist that cannot be identified by our senses. To believe that all that exists is what our only 5 senses interpret is laughable. That's like a deaf man saying sound doesn't exist because he cannot hear it. We interpret what we can, but not all that's there.

LOLOOLLLOLOLOLLOLLOLLOOL

ROMAL thanks for the morning yoke.

No wonder our politicians do whatever the hell they want, look at the level of idiocracy they have to deal with!!!.

VitalOne

11-18-03, 07:31 PM

Originally posted by Godless
Sure she is, she never claimed to be god.

Was she a type of person everneo depicts?

She might of been, however she was able to define a phylosophy, in all aspects and give it a name, were is the phylosophical writings of Everneo?. Shmuck!! or Pendejo Vitalzero?. Pun intended, if one questions his own existence, one can't be called "one"!.

http://www.fullcontext.org/Objectivism/aynrand.htm

Vitalone:
states:My original argument was that things can exist that cannot be identified. Then you shift the argument to suit you saying that things exist if they can be identified.

Hey look back at said statements, learn to read and pay attention. You took the sentence out of context. I agreed with your ignoramous mind that there exists plenty of substances we have not yet identified.

THAT IS NOT WHAT SHE WAS TALKING ABOUT

However really thinking how can I argue with some poor shmuck who is questioning his own existence?.

The literal meaning of having you try and put a bullet in your head, is that I know you wouldn't do it!!

Because you Vitalone have a conscious a sence of self, one that you are determined to preserve. Why? because you have a sence of "I" therefore you have IDENTITY.

On another note, Hey Vitalone, the Matrix was just a movie!! not reality. ok.

I said I couldn't PROVE my existence fool, not that I don't exist. I know I exist. I'm not questioning my existance. There's no point to argue with you because of your ignorance, and lack of evidence of anything you state. You just say stuff without any evidence to back it up. All you do is deny a statement or make a joke out of it. You haven't used any scientific evidence, while I have. Your arguments are weak, and you have no evidence to support them.
Before saying something, please give at least some scienfific evidence. It's just like someone saying "Hahaha, god doesn't exist, that's a good joke" without any evidence to support that god does exist. You sound like you've been brainwashed by Ayn Rand's teachings and that no matter what, you can't believe that she's wrong.

Godless

11-19-03, 05:06 AM

Vitalone Quote:
(I said I couldn't PROVE my existence fool, not that I don't exist. I know I exist) Prove it?.

yinyinwang

11-20-03, 04:07 AM

Originally posted by one_raven
"Where is God?"?

I think it is obvious.

He is in Tampa, of course.

He is a really old, retired Jewish man.
Where else would be be?
the fact that The Jews promote god does not mean that god is Jewish.

yinyinwang

11-24-03, 01:17 AM

Originally posted by (Q)
Where is God

In the imaginations of those who believe in him.
I don't think this is an unfounded imagination.

Gravage

11-24-03, 04:51 AM

Originally posted by VitalOne
Quantum Physics says that consciousness creates reality, reality doesn't create consciousness. Physical objects would have no properties if a conscious observer was not there watching them. Observers create the reality, the reailty isn't already there. Reality is SUBJECTIVE, since everyone has their own individual senses, thuoghts, ideas, and reality. Facts are just what a bunch of people agree on to be. These "facts" periodically change with new experiments and such. Thus, collasping Ayn Rand's entire philosophy.

Not really.That would mean the world is an illusion.The fact is the world is NOT the illusion.If the world is illusion and if we create reality,we could change that reality antime we wake up,since we dream a different reality.Observers don't create reality,because you couldn't die,you could change reality as you wanted,and you could phase your hand thru these things like rock,woods or anything else what is made from solid matter.The world is a real place,but we don't see it in the entire spectrum-that's why we have instruments to see it.

Gravage

11-24-03, 05:03 AM

Originally posted by Godless
Vitalzero:
Ayn Rand, one of the greatest minds? LOL! That's a good joke. Ayn Rand's Objectivism has been proven incorrect. Reality isn't objective, it's subjective and depends on the observer. All reality isn't external to the mind, things can exist that cannot be identified by our senses. To believe that all that exists is what our only 5 senses interpret is laughable. That's like a deaf man saying sound doesn't exist because he cannot hear it. We interpret what we can, but not all that's there.

LOLOOLLLOLOLOLLOLLOLLOOL

ROMAL thanks for the morning yoke.

No wonder our politicians do whatever the hell they want, look at the level of idiocracy they have to deal with!!!.

Not really.That would mean the world is an illusion.The fact is the world is NOT the illusion.If the world is illusion and if we create reality,we could change that reality antime we wake up,since we dream a different reality.Observers don't create reality,because you couldn't die,you could change reality as you wanted,and you could phase your hand thru these things like rock,woods or anything else what is made from solid matter.The world is a real place,but we don't see it in the entire spectrum-that's why we have instruments to see it.You can't say to poor,hungry kids that the world is an illusion,than why are they suffering,why people fight for survival,is that an illusion?No,it's real.Which proves that reality is real,and not the product of our own brain.It depends on how much our brain can detect reality.You can't create reality in your brain,unless you have memories.To have memories you have to pick up that information from the outside world.That irrefutably proves,that reality creates memories,memories of this reality are stored in the brain,which enables us to recognize that we have been here,or we haven't.You can't say that brain creates reality on the places you have never been and have never been remembered in th brain-that irrefutably proves that reality is true.People who say that brain creates reality,has never suffered in his life,never tasted the "l" from word "life",and haven't been torchered.Your brain could easily destroy/erase everyone and eerything on your way,if they,space around and the entire universe were being simply nothing more than just an illusion.Those philosophers that gave that the most illogical theory I've ever heard,don't what they talk about.

Godless

11-24-03, 09:39 AM

Hey, just a note.
When VitaOne, made this statement:( Reality isn't objective, it's subjective and depends on the observer. All reality isn't external to the mind, things can exist that cannot be identified by our senses.)

I gave up!!

I can't take this idiotic crap seriously.

I tried to tell him (THE MATRIX) was just a movie. Thats the only place I know of were reality is completely subjective and one is able to control it's reality. Like Neo. (it is not a spoon)

Though when individuals want to sound superior, smarter, and bring even quantum physics as there scientific proofs, that reality is subjective.

Well this would be a sad day, if I were to take such an educated idiot serious.

Really!, if anyone ever needs a good example of non-sequirtus here it is:
(I said I couldn't PROVE my existence fool, not that I don't exist. I know I exist.)
Now THAT!! is serious stupidity!!. that makes no sence.

C-ya!
Julio.

tomasito

11-24-03, 03:36 PM

God is a spirit! He was and is and evermore shall be. Before time even began He was. He declared his name is "I Am".

Prophet Moses of the old testament was sent from the burning bush experience to a great king-pharaoh of Egypt. he asked the deity who sent him "When The Egyptian king (pharaoh) asks who you are, what do I tell him?"
According to this story the divine answered him " tell pharaoh my name is The I Am".

Our natural, human,carnal mind cannot get to know God since he is in a different realm- the realm of the spirit.

You only get to a position to know God when you inner being(soul) is given life through the life that is in Jesus.
Because of the sin of Adam we all inherit spiritual death at conception. The second Adam is a life-giving spirit( the spirit of Jesus/holy spirit)
You have to be saved to personaly know God. He is HOLY!!

Holy,Holy .holy is the Lord God Almighty, the whole earth is full of his glory. The heavens and the creation(nature-mountains,oceans,sunsets) declare the glory of the Lord God.

Godless

11-24-03, 08:15 PM

Funny tomacito;

I am too!!.

VitalOne

11-24-03, 09:38 PM

VitalOne

11-24-03, 09:44 PM

Originally posted by Godless
Hey, just a note.
When VitaOne, made this statement:( Reality isn't objective, it's subjective and depends on the observer. All reality isn't external to the mind, things can exist that cannot be identified by our senses.)

I gave up!!

I can't take this idiotic crap seriously.

I tried to tell him (THE MATRIX) was just a movie. Thats the only place I know of were reality is completely subjective and one is able to control it's reality. Like Neo. (it is not a spoon)

Though when individuals want to sound superior, smarter, and bring even quantum physics as there scientific proofs, that reality is subjective.

Well this would be a sad day, if I were to take such an educated idiot serious.

Really!, if anyone ever needs a good example of non-sequirtus here it is:
(I said I couldn't PROVE my existence fool, not that I don't exist. I know I exist.)
Now THAT!! is serious stupidity!!. that makes no sence.

C-ya!
Julio.

Nice, keep using your no-evidence, nonsensical arguments. You argue that I sound like a fool, yet you have yet to use any scientific evidence. All you do is say things like "that's stupid" to argue.

Someone can know someone has stolen something, because they saw them, but can be unable to prove it (using concrete evidence).

So it's the same, I cannot prove my existence, but I know I exist. I'm sorry you cannot understand a simple concept like that, but with your close-minded, narrow brain, I can understand why.

BTW - I knew about this BEFORE I ever saw the Matrix...

VitalOne

11-24-03, 09:51 PM

Originally posted by Gravage
Not really.That would mean the world is an illusion.The fact is the world is NOT the illusion.If the world is illusion and if we create reality,we could change that reality antime we wake up,since we dream a different reality.Observers don't create reality,because you couldn't die,you could change reality as you wanted,and you could phase your hand thru these things like rock,woods or anything else what is made from solid matter.The world is a real place,but we don't see it in the entire spectrum-that's why we have instruments to see it.You can't say to poor,hungry kids that the world is an illusion,than why are they suffering,why people fight for survival,is that an illusion?No,it's real.Which proves that reality is real,and not the product of our own brain.It depends on how much our brain can detect reality.You can't create reality in your brain,unless you have memories.To have memories you have to pick up that information from the outside world.That irrefutably proves,that reality creates memories,memories of this reality are stored in the brain,which enables us to recognize that we have been here,or we haven't.You can't say that brain creates reality on the places you have never been and have never been remembered in th brain-that irrefutably proves that reality is true.People who say that brain creates reality,has never suffered in his life,never tasted the "l" from word "life",and haven't been torchered.Your brain could easily destroy/erase everyone and eerything on your way,if they,space around and the entire universe were being simply nothing more than just an illusion.Those philosophers that gave that the most illogical theory I've ever heard,don't what they talk about.

Read my previous quote, and electrical signals are sent to the brain stem, our mind then interprets it. As I stated, our conscious mind doesn't create reality. When you dream of a place, would you say that your mind is interpreting things from that world. When you touch something in a dream, you touch it, and feel it, would you say that touch was real? A dream is temporary reality, if it were permanent, then you would say that it was reality. The only reason a dream is viewed as a fantasy is because we observe it temporarily.

yinyinwang

11-25-03, 06:07 AM

a dream is not real, like a movie is not real. A car running in the movie is not a real car, it is virtual, our mind interpretate the movie as if real, but sensing the real car running is different in many ways from watching a movie.

Mucker

11-25-03, 06:24 AM

A car running in the movie is not a real car, it is virtual... It is a real car though. Light sensitive film, frame after frame, has captured a real car running, and this is the image that is shown.

yinyinwang

11-25-03, 07:13 AM

Originally posted by Mucker
It is a real car though. Light sensitive film, frame after frame, has captured a real car running, and this is the image that is shown.
there are a lot of things left out, for example, the light spectrum is not the same, image distortion, etc. even though it look alike.

yinyinwang

11-25-03, 07:24 AM

Originally posted by yinyinwang
there are a lot of things left out, for example, the light spectrum is not the same, image distortion, etc. even though they look alike.

Godless

11-25-03, 10:54 AM

You have proven your existence to me VitalOne;

Everytime you write absurdities bs, you are proving your existence to me.

Existence is self evident, the fact that you've not realized this, is beyond my reasoning.

What scientific proof do you seek?. I've already gave you an alternative, to realize your existence. Blow your brains out!!

The fact that you wouldn not take such action proves, that you want to remain an existing entity, that has an (identity) sence of self. WHICH IS BTW WHAT AYN RAND WAS SPEAKING OFF!!!!!!!

http://home.sprynet.com/~owl1/rand2.htm

The above is a better explanation than that I can give you.

Now please realize that I've been polite with this post, no name calling, no mentioning of ignorance on your part. I just don't understand your (non-sequirtus) crap.

Godless.

VitalOne

11-25-03, 05:07 PM

Originally posted by Godless
You have proven your existence to me VitalOne;

Everytime you write absurdities bs, you are proving your existence to me.

Existence is self evident, the fact that you've not realized this, is beyond my reasoning.

What scientific proof do you seek?. I've already gave you an alternative, to realize your existence. Blow your brains out!!

The fact that you wouldn not take such action proves, that you want to remain an existing entity, that has an (identity) sence of self. WHICH IS BTW WHAT AYN RAND WAS SPEAKING OFF!!!!!!!

http://home.sprynet.com/~owl1/rand2.htm

The above is a better explanation than that I can give you.

Now please realize that I've been polite with this post, no name calling, no mentioning of ignorance on your part. I just don't understand your (non-sequirtus) crap.

Godless.

What a narrow mind...again all you do is say is I'm writing BS and stuff. And your evidence of my existence is you interpreting electrical signals and reading this text. What does that prove? It proves that electrical signals exist, that's all. Man, Ayn Rand has really messed you up. Your mind only thinks within a limited field.

Godless

11-25-03, 05:35 PM

Vital crap,

You've been educated beyond reason, you can't comprehend common sence, I feel sorry for your ass.

You didn't even read, the article.

Ayn Rand has nothing to do with my education.

It was her philosophy that saved my life. YOU SHMUCK!!

What is messed up is that you truly believe the bull shiet you read, I don't my philosophy is not totally based on Ayn Rands writings!

The one messed up is the one that questions his own existence.

Face it! you just have to tell me you don't like Ayn Rand, and that is that. But I've not seen any evidence from your part, other than your say so, to disprove her theory. Give links, yada-yada-yada, and bla, bla, not just because you claim!!!!.

Quote: When Ayn Rand distinguishes 'existence' from 'consciousness', she mainly means by "existence" what other philosophers call "the external world" -- thus, the distinction is between states of one's own mind and external phenomena. According to Objectivism, existence has primacy over consciousness in two senses. First, epistemologically: human knowledge begins with (sensory) awareness of the external world. It does not begin with awareness of one's own ideas. The reason is that ideas or states of consciousness are necessarily ideas about something, and that something is what one is aware of. One could not become aware of one's own consciousness, unless one first had some states of consciousness to be aware of; and one could not have states of consciousness, unless one first had something else that one was conscious of.(2)

What is so hard about understanding that!!!! unless your totally ignorant of your own existence?.

No shiet sherlock that is electrical sensations to which I tipe, or read your crap, yet this proves your existence, dumb ass!!! and mine!!!!.

Quote: Second, existence has a metaphysical primacy over consciousness: that is, the external world exists prior to, and is not dependent on, our minds. This also implies that the external world has its specific characteristics (identity) prior to, and independent of, the states of our minds. And this is for the same reason: in order to have states of consciousness, there must first be things for us to become conscious of (whereas the converse is not the case), because consciousness is consciousness of things. Consciousness, again, is a faculty of becoming aware of things, not of creating or altering them.

Are you going to tell me know that nothing existed before your dumb ass was born?.

Anyhow I'll ended here. I got out of the cave long ago, your still searching to find your way out, however you can't see the light that is in front of you. Because, your blind, your ignorant to reality, you choose to be ignorant of your existence, or what exists around you, and simply call it (electrical sensation) Duhh!! we all know that dumb ass, what is causing the electric sensation?. EXISTENCE

Godless

11-25-03, 06:09 PM

Questioning existence;

well here you go:

http://www.vexen.co.uk/3/he.html

If you would like to use your (sensations on reading)

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0812210107/104-6253359-0561546?v=glance

http://www.nutramed.com/Philosophy/existence/

http://www.popular-science.net/books/russell/chapter2.html

This was quite interesting.

http://www.philosophyforums.com/essays/links/detail/17

However I hardly expect you would even look at one single link!! what a waste.

:rolleyes:

yinyinwang

11-26-03, 12:26 AM

Godless:
You can not reason with some one by insulting, you don't have to prove your points by kicking around unless kicking is what you want.
Show some manner.

Gravage

11-26-03, 02:08 AM

Gravage

11-26-03, 02:21 AM

Originally posted by VitalOne
I never said we could control reality...Our conscious mind doesn't create reality, our unconscious mind does...that is why we have little control over it... It's just like how our conscious thought can't all of a sudden tell our heart to stop, we don't control it, but our mind still does. Just as how our mind regulates blinking, breathing, and other unconscious functions. Just as how we have little or no control over dreams, yet our mind still creates it. Death is when you no longer observe this reality, I cannot say what happens when you die, and neither can you.

However,our mind can't create reality,unless it has seen it before.All the images can't be create before you saw how the world looks like.Than when the brain sees how the real world looks like,than he created his own reality,to mix up with real,but the brain doesn't affect the real reality around us.That inside realit is created from the brain,as the result after seeing the reality around.Our mind don't control reality otherwise we could change are reality whenever we can,please.And it's not the mind who controls blinking, breathing, and other unconscious functions,it' the brain that controls them all-brain creates and controls our mind.It is the brain's capacity to learn,not mind's.Saying that world is an illusion is the biggest stupidity I've ever heard.How does my mind create dreams?Simply,when someone/something bothers me,torchers me...Brain creates dreams because of the uncomplished wishes,you create dreams where the world is when you imagine.Every time you wake there is always the same world.Nothing happens when you die,many say your brain is mixing pictures and dreams(which are not reality,but hallucination),on the edge of death,however when you die,there is nothing left.

Gravage

11-26-03, 02:27 AM

Originally posted by VitalOne
Read my previous quote, and electrical signals are sent to the brain stem, our mind then interprets it. As I stated, our conscious mind doesn't create reality. When you dream of a place, would you say that your mind is interpreting things from that world. When you touch something in a dream, you touch it, and feel it, would you say that touch was real? A dream is temporary reality, if it were permanent, then you would say that it was reality. The only reason a dream is viewed as a fantasy is because we observe it temporarily.

Yes,but the touch inside the dream can't kill you.I've been dreaming that someone has killed me,with the knife in my stomach.I didn't feel the pain,I didn't even feel the touch I only felt fear.When you fear something or someone in th real life,your brain creates images of that person or place where something happened,but it's not real.A dream is not temporal reality,it's only an answer to the circumstances you have been in-brain warns you to not forget it,until you face them.

Gravage

11-26-03, 02:45 AM

Originally posted by yinyinwang
I don't think this is an unfounded imagination.

Yes,it is,because you don't know something to explain,people sa miracle,and miracles are tightly connected with God.Humans haven't changed a bit,when you talk about that,that's why there will always be religions.

yinyinwang

11-26-03, 07:00 AM

Originally posted by tomasito
God is a spirit! He was and is and evermore shall be. Before time even began He was. He declared his name is "I Am".

Prophet Moses of the old testament was sent from the burning bush experience to a great king-pharaoh of Egypt. he asked the deity who sent him "When The Egyptian king (pharaoh) asks who you are, what do I tell him?"
According to this story the divine answered him " tell pharaoh my name is The I Am".

Our natural, human,carnal mind cannot get to know God since he is in a different realm- the realm of the spirit.

You only get to a position to know God when you inner being(soul) is given life through the life that is in Jesus.
Because of the sin of Adam we all inherit spiritual death at conception. The second Adam is a life-giving spirit( the spirit of Jesus/holy spirit)
You have to be saved to personaly know God. He is HOLY!!

Holy,Holy .holy is the Lord God Almighty, the whole earth is full of his glory. The heavens and the creation(nature-mountains,oceans,sunsets) declare the glory of the Lord God.
spirit exists in life but not in a rock. realm of spirit is not a clear concept, how does such a realm interact with our realm?

yinyinwang

11-26-03, 07:01 AM

Originally posted by yinyinwang
spirit exists in life but not in a rock. realm of spirit is not a clear concept, how does such a realm interact with our realm?

Godless

11-26-03, 07:13 AM

Yea!, you are correct. However it's agreavating, and I can't help but get emotional.

My apolegies, VitalOne.

Existence exists, that is an axiom, existence is self evident, the mind is a reality intergrating organ, (not a reality creating organ) it sences all existence around it, however something has to exist in order to be aware of it. An individual possess a sence of self and therefore has (identity) of self.

A dream is only an illusion, illusions are not real, however in ancient times people believed them to be real, i.e. explains the many (miracles) on the bible, most were illusions.

http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html

Perhaps by the use of logic, above you can come to the conclusion, that what your (electrical sences) are doing is defining existence around you. Therefore I know an individual called VitalOne exists, because he types words on an internet forum, contradicty everything, and anything I say. The fact that you react to anything you may disagree with, is scientifical evidence that such an idividual exists!!.

If this individual were to NOT exist, then there would not be any reaction., my sences then would not have to be reading non-sence, coming from such individual!!.

Bla,bla, bla, & Yada, ya-D-dada.

Godless.

yinyinwang

11-26-03, 09:54 AM

Thank you
Godless.

yinyinwang

11-27-03, 03:50 AM

Originally posted by Gravage
Yes,it is,because you don't know something to explain,people sa miracle,and miracles are tightly connected with God.Humans haven't changed a bit,when you talk about that,that's why there will always be religions.
human being evolvles. maybe it is slow in your eyes.
I find much more pain than miracle in human history.
People associating miracles with god are interpreting god wrong, not god is a wrong assumption.
religion is a pointer for people's reference before they find out what is what in their exploring process. Religion is not meant to stop people's own exploring, but as a guidelines for their consideration.

yinyinwang

11-28-03, 11:20 AM

Originally posted by Jenyar
To quote Ayn Rand herself: "Reality exists as an objective absolute ?facts are facts independent of man’s feelings, wishes, hopes or fears." - the ethics of Ayn Rand (http://www.summit.org/resources/EthicsofAynRand.htm).

Whether you agree that God is a reality is not the question right now, but whether He could be described as benevolent if (original) sin is a reality.

Sin is the separation between God and man. This separation is illustrated by Adam and Eve's choice not to heed God's warning about the temptation of evil, and their subsequent exile from life with God. All their children - the human race - are born into this exile, a "world without God".

Sin is not just "something you did wrong". It is a state of separation that is characterized by all kinds of moral and legal transgressions. The cleanest, purest, most innocent baby is born into this world - it is only its pure nature as image of God that still connects it to God's world and God's life. No wonder the words for "soul" and "divine breath" that are used to describe consciousness of God means simply "to be alive".

If God did not present a way where we could be reconciled with Him in this world, the only salvation would have been to keep ourselves holy (separate from sin) - as those before Christ had no choice but to try. But Christ was also born into this exile, separating himself from God willingly. He was not born of a descendent of Adam, so He did not share a legacy of sin; He knew God as he knew himself, but did not strive to be "God" but to be completely human in the true sense of the word: as God's image. When we recognize that in Him we recognize God, and we recognize his Salvation, which means restoring the possibility of a relationship with Him and forgiving us from our part in sin, which is the "sting" of death - the opposite of life with God.

We are created in God's image - the question is 1) do we recognize it and, 2) do we live like we do?
This asks for too much because mankind learn from mistakes to improve.

Godless

11-28-03, 12:47 PM

You may think we learn from mistakes, it has been two thousand years, and longer perhaps.

We as a human race are still unzivilized, we have not learned that war is amoral, that the state, does not hold power over us, though it easily wages war upon its "suppose enemies" in the name of "protection" but it is actually conquest.

Authorities use any means for gaging war, religious doctrine and rhetoric are given to justify war, God is with us, or Allah is our savior, bla,bla, Yada,yada,

Finally no we've not learned from our mistakes Yin, we are still falling for them by those who we let rule over us!!

Personally we seem to think we learn from our mistakes.

Well some of us do, actually however when it comes to a single man looking for a mate, one tends to make the same mistakes over, and over again. The fun part is trying over and over again, untill one finds a suitable mate, or gets an STD. Sexually Transmited Desease!.

LOL.

Godless.

Q25

11-28-03, 09:23 PM

Originally posted by Laser Eyes
God is not a person like us. God is a spirit, invisible to us. He has great power and energy,
Every little thing in the universe is under God's control,
so god is responsible for all the evil that people do then?
he is controling all,yes?
he also kills inocent litle babies,obviously.

Q25

11-28-03, 09:31 PM

Originally posted by yinyinwang
find out before worship.
god as described by the bible cannot exist,it has too many contradictions;
allmighty,all knowing,all good:rolleyes:is everywhere at the same time,and is invisible WTF???
read
www.geocities.com/inquisitive79/
click on god

Q25

11-28-03, 09:37 PM

Originally posted by MISSunderstanding@
If you come to get near to Him , you will surely love Him as He loves you. [/B]
I doubt this very much MISS,
read the bible qoutes at
www.thewaronfaith.com
god like that I will take satan any day.

yinyinwang

11-29-03, 06:40 AM

Originally posted by Godless
You may think we learn from mistakes, it has been two thousand years, and longer perhaps.

We as a human race are still unzivilized, we have not learned that war is amoral, that the state, does not hold power over us, though it easily wages war upon its "suppose enemies" in the name of "protection" but it is actually conquest.
Too long, isn't it?
But you can hardly blame the war as long as the world is not sitting in justice.

Authorities use any means for gaging war, religious doctrine and rhetoric are given to justify war, God is with us, or Allah is our savior, bla,bla, Yada,yada,
So what is your suggestion? hide somewhere?

Finally no we've not learned from our mistakes Yin, we are still falling for them by those who we let rule over us!!
So we still have to fight for justice.
Personally we seem to think we learn from our mistakes.
Wish most of us did. The more learn, the better.
Well some of us do, actually however when it comes to a single man looking for a mate, one tends to make the same mistakes over, and over again. The fun part is trying over and over again, untill one finds a suitable mate, or gets an STD. Sexually Transmited Desease!.

LOL.

Godless.
Life is not risk free, you learn to make it or fail somewhere.

yinyinwang

11-29-03, 06:44 AM

Originally posted by Q25
god as described by the bible cannot exist,it has too many contradictions;
allmighty,all knowing,all good:rolleyes:is everywhere at the same time,and is invisible WTF???
read
www.geocities.com/inquisitive79/
click on god
sounds too exaggerated.

Godless

11-29-03, 08:55 AM

Sounds too exagerated?

Wait a minute, is it not believing in something which there is no way to prove it's existence or not.

Exagerated?

yinyinwang

11-29-03, 09:51 AM

I said reading history is a better way to understand god than reading an old book.
A wrongly advertised assumption does not erase its validity.

Godless

11-29-03, 11:49 AM

By studying history is how I became an atheist!!

You are quite correct, by reading history, one finds the attrocities done to men by religious zelalots, the inquisition, burning of witches, religious wars etc...

Godless.

yinyinwang

11-29-03, 12:12 PM

Godl
Wrongs are in all sorts of names, not only religions. But religion played a bitter role in history, even dangerous role. But people's spirit needs guidence, restoration of belief is better than abandoning.

Godless

11-29-03, 08:03 PM

(But people's spirit needs guidence, restoration of belief is better than abandoning.)

Why do you think people need quidance?. Who is to lead them, same people who caused the attrocities? Belief in relegious values do not quide people, only those who earn a living by preaching to gullible people think that these individuals are actually quiding them!.

They are not!, only weak minded mentalities need quidance for survival!. The others feed themselves on these needs, they provide a service for the qullible, they earn their living by keeping false notions of god, heaven, yada-yada, bla,bla.

There are two tipes of people in the world yin.

1:Those who live by producing values.

2:Those who live by usurping the value producers.

Strangely enough, leaders such as preachers, politicians, and those whom we recognize as authorities, the majority of them live by usurping values from the producers!.

So gullible people, the weak minded individuals who think they can't live without religious (quidance) are the only ones who actually benefit from these usurpers. But the benefit, comes at a great price!!.

Godless

yinyinwang

11-30-03, 07:01 AM

Originally posted by Godless
[BWhy do you think people need quidance?. Who is to lead them, same people who caused the attrocities? Belief in relegious values do not quide people, [/B]

call it a map if you don't like the word guidance.

only those who earn a living by preaching to gullible people think that these individuals are actually quiding them!.
this is too extreme, certainly a child need some advice. But to take advantage of that need is not mora.

They are not!, only weak minded mentalities need quidance for survival!. The others feed themselves on these needs, they provide a service for the qullible, they earn their living by keeping false notions of god, heaven, yada-yada, bla,bla.
there is a posibility that god is mis-represented by some one and we need find a true one.

There are two tipes of people in the world yin.

1:Those who live by producing values.

2:Those who live by usurping the value producers.

Strangely enough, leaders such as preachers, politicians, and those whom we recognize as authorities, the majority of them live by usurping values from the producers!.

So gullible people, the weak minded individuals who think they can't live without religious (quidance) are the only ones who actually benefit from these usurpers. But the benefit, comes at a great price!!.

Godless
I think you are a little bit self-contradictory because you call people gullible but deny that they need quidance.

Godless

11-30-03, 08:33 AM

Self contradictory?

No!! what I state is that people do not need quidance, from some self proclaimed leader, auditor of the word of god!. But that there are gullible people who will buy in to this deception!.

For example my mom!.

mom, is not an atheist as I am, though she does not need anyone to lead her on reading the scriptures, or show her to pray, mom is a deist. She does not believe in the organized religious congreagations, or believe in priests.

Children get their guidance from parents. Haven't you heard? lately the Catholics have been found guilty of child molestation, this has been gone on for centuries!!!!

What kind of guidance is that?.

Godless.

Bells

11-30-03, 09:36 AM

Re: Where is God?

When I was a little girl.. long ago... when my parents made me take religious studies, I was told that God was everywhere and all around and all through us. So I asked the nun who taught us in that class, that if that was the case, when I farted, did I fart God? When I flushed the toilet, was I flushing God? She never replied:(. I thought it was a valid question. Sigh... one of the reasons my parents were told I should be taken out of religious classes...:confused:

:eek:

yinyinwang

11-30-03, 11:13 AM

Originally posted by Godless
Self contradictory?

No!! what I state is that people do not need quidance, from some self proclaimed leader, auditor of the word of god!. But that there are gullible people who will buy in to this deception!.

For example my mom!.

mom, is not an atheist as I am, though she does not need anyone to lead her on reading the scriptures, or show her to pray, mom is a deist. She does not believe in the organized religious congreagations, or believe in priests.

Children get their guidance from parents. Haven't you heard? lately the Catholics have been found guilty of child molestation, this has been gone on for centuries!!!!

What kind of guidance is that?.

Godless.
Does your mother nickname herself Godless?
She does believe in god but try a unique way to find him.

yinyinwang

11-30-03, 11:30 AM

Originally posted by Bells
Re: Where is God?

When I was a little girl.. long ago... when my parents made me take religious studies, I was told that God was everywhere and all around and all through us. So I asked the nun who taught us in that class, that if that was the case, when I farted, did I fart God? When I flushed the toilet, was I flushing God? She never replied:(. I thought it was a valid question. Sigh... one of the reasons my parents were told I should be taken out of religious classes...:confused:

:eek:
The list can go on and on in that direction. But I think this is a good question.
That is in what way we are related to god.
Through and by some agent we don't know?
It is like to ask why the world should work in a consistant set of rules, who is responsible to make the rules valid?
We just don't know how god works his way through us.

Gravage

12-01-03, 04:00 AM

Originally posted by yinyinwang
human being evolvles. maybe it is slow in your eyes.
I find much more pain than miracle in human history.
People associating miracles with god are interpreting god wrong, not god is a wrong assumption.
religion is a pointer for people's reference before they find out what is what in their exploring process. Religion is not meant to stop people's own exploring, but as a guidelines for their consideration.

Well,you didn't quite unbderstand me,I know human being evolves,but the question is why people,even after high-tech and science development,still believe in supernatural,I think that depends on situation you're in and how hard this situation is.

yinyinwang

12-01-03, 04:29 AM

This is a strange era in which science is known by far short of majority while the material fruits of science can be used against the spirit of science and science is not fully developed to the extent of solving all the cognition or action problems, sounds bad, it isn't?

Godless

12-01-03, 05:50 AM

Does this answer of yours Yin imply disrespect?: (Does your mother nickname herself Godless?
She does believe in god but try a unique way to find him.)

Towards me & mom, it totally evades the subject matter I was speaking of!.

Evasiveness of questions, turning around and asking question using non-sequirtus ploys, has always been the way of theists to manipulate their subjects. Yin you are doing a good job of it!!

Mainly what I was talking about, is that a strong willed person does not seek (quidance) from some authority in organized religion. God is not an authority!!, only those who speak on his name are. And (those) are people, with out a clue of the existence of, or the nature of god, their guide an ancient book, that every individual interprets differently.

Godless