read this article about Graham Hancock
http://news.scotsman.com/features.cfm?id=2068802005
he believes thatpre-40,000 years ago there was not much creativity, and then WHAM along came more and more advanced techne and cave art.....he recokns this sudden unexplainable happening came about trough our ancient ancestor discoverning naturally growing psychedelic plants.....

tell me what you think about what he is saying....

yer borin gits..havew you got no responses to this..????

So if we want to be civilized again we should give up 'the war on drugs'?

I've heard that before, except I thought it was spores, not bacteria that were sent, sort of a variation of the panspermia idea. I think it's plausible, given a climate change about then that sent primitive humans out of the jungle, and into the grasslands, where food source became more varied. It might have coincided with the domestication of cattle, and we know what grows in cow dung.

I've heard that before, except I thought it was spores, not bacteria that were sent, sort of a variation of the panspermia idea. I think it's plausible, given a climate change about then that sent primitive humans out of the jungle, and into the grasslands, where food source became more varied. It might have coincided with the domestication of cattle, and we know what grows in cow dung.

yes, it's straight from Terrence McKenna. didn't hear mention of him in that article! strange
i dont know if i go wit te spores...DNA thing toug. it is like a mushroom myth....ie., that now, instead of 'God' it's some aiens and mushroom spores creating us....so, it begs the inevitable question--as in the 'so who made 'God'...ad infinitum question, it changes ito so who made them aliens??

A very interesting article. Crick's theory actually tallies in a way with a whimsical idea I had about God, life, the universe and everything a few years ago when I was into some very nice 'erb and which led me into writing a novel about it.

I won't tell you what the story entails because it hasn't been published and I don't want my ideas to be plagiarised, but I do agree that drugs did inspire mankind's original thoughts about gods and the wonders of the universe and art is indeed a spiritual expression when it comes from the soul.

So if we want to be civilized again we should give up 'the war on drugs'?
ok ...i will now be bold enuf to claim thepossibility that the so-called 'anti-christ' is not a person, place, thing, but a mindset. which is the prohibition of psychedelics......J>M. Allegro in his book The Sacred Mshroom and the Cross suggests that te mythic name 'Chrit' is referring to the 'Chrestos'--a psychedelic unguent which was part of the Christian ritual. annointment of a sacrament.

so thatsthat......then we have what it actually does to communities. it creates gangsterism. and the money from the war on drugs is used to fuel the military and their corporate wars

its use is also S A WAY TO CONTOL SOCIETY. I HAD A FRIEND IN TE 80S...A GORGEOUS LOOKIN BLACK GIRL. THEY BASHED HER DOOR IN ONE MORNING WHILE HER 5 YEAR OLD GIRL CHILD WAS WIH HER...ooop sorry just looked up. i'm not shouting. or maybe i am

lol.. i've never heard anyone do that. w/ "Chrestos" and everything (assuming that's true).

could be.

So duendy your 'gorgeous' friend was a parent and a drug user? Or dealer, if they kicked her door in?

So duendy your 'gorgeous' friend was a parent and a drug user? Or dealer, if they kicked her door in?
ypu have been askin a lot of questions mr, and i have answered some you've thrown at me.....though i am suspicious where all this is going. i sense i know your political leanings...but let me ask you these..my turn:
do you agree with the war on drugs?
if so, why?

This is from the article, which I liked;
"I believe these hallucinogenic experiences are the basis for all modern-day religions. If you think about it, why would we ever have cause to imagine a spirit world? Our uncreative ancestors didn't, but then they found these drugs and saw for themselves the spirit world, and realised there was more to life. I think religion resulted from the need to explain these supernatural encounters."


One thing about the hallucinagenic drug experience is the inner mind is really quite lucid during the 'high', but the problem is the physical body and outer mind are rendered incoherent by the drug. This means it is often near impossible to communicate the experience / information / levels of consciousness that are experienced. The cognative factulties are disabled. What makes thsi worse is that once the drug has worn off enough fo reffective communication to take place the experience of consciousness has been lost.


The person effected bu the drug seems incoherent and debilitaled (and physically is) but this does not mean they are at all levels of consiousness. I believe the effect of hall. drugs is to temporarilly wipe clean conditioning, the outer distractions of senses and disable to some extent the ego. What is left is an experience of self and of a purer from of consciousnes. But of course thi sis glimsed through the haze of the drug and the halluinations. The problem with all this objectively is that to look at the person's outer state all this seems far from believable and indded noone would believe it.

But yes in answer to yout thread, I believe drugs can be an entrance to spirituality. although I will qualify that with saying they also canNOT be and can just F**k people up instead. Its a risky experiment.

double posted by mistake - same as above

we cant homogenize all psychedelics into one 'goo'. There are many different varieites, and different amounts, mixes. then there is the very important aspect of set&setting to consider. Also psychedelics are non-specific, meaning that it is very much an individual unique relationship, and forthcoming experience

When you say that looking at someone who is psychedelized, one sees debilitation.....well again it depends on dosage, etc. Actually one can be...VERY VERY aware...of movement, and balance, and a vital 'hereness' and intensity, etc. So much so, it is more so that the so-called sober people the ecstatic might observe are the wooden clumsy and unaware ones

And i appreciate your experience/interpretation, but mine and others, is that the whole process from ingestion through to climax of ecstatic experience to the 'come down' will gradually reintegrate into one's ordinary state, and this integration brings really deep insight and deep relaxed feeling

i am suspicious with the attitude which seems to assume one can dispense with psychedelics and become 'enlightened' or whatever. Obviously we saw this dream in the 60snand 70s with tsome Guru/Buddhaetc seekin Hippies, and the growth of the so-called New Age, but from what i have seen and learnt, a lot of that is hypocritical and phony, and a kind of self aggrandizement. Also remember that Indigenous peopls who use a psychedelic sacrament do not have that attidue towards psychedelics. For them is it something rthey take as a commmunity and/or individually at certian special occassions during the year

Drugs at 40000 years ago? lol, maybe...it was the beggining of trance music :D

do you agree with the war on drugs?
if so, why?

Is there one? I see each drug being treated individually. Lines like 'The War on Drugs' seem to be used by the press, not the Police.

Recently, Cannabis has been re-classified as a class 'C', which could be seen as a positive move, but since July this year, 'Magic Mushrooms' in any form, even fresh, are now a class 'A', which seems a backward step.

I don't have a problem with recreational drug use per se. If people want to indulge in a relatively safe substance, that's their choice I think. I dislike the way drugs are smuggled and sold, and that entire culture however.

I'd be happy to decriminalise any 'home grown' fauna used for personal use, and concentrate law enforcement on abused pharmaceuticals.

Or legalise and tax everything, and put the illegal dealers, smugglers and gun runners out of business.

we cant homogenize all psychedelics into one 'goo'. There are many different varieites, and different amounts, mixes. then there is the very important aspect of set&setting to consider. Also psychedelics are non-specific, meaning that it is very much an individual unique relationship, and forthcoming experience

Yes they are all very different and different combinations produce different results. And yes everyone gets something different from them. But these are all the outer effects of the drugs.

I say that at the centre of each experience of each different drug, the same thing is touched upon. The same consciousness or awareness (whatever you want to call it). If it is not the same awareness that is reached whichever drug is used to reach it, there is no basis for assuming anything real is being reached or connected with.


When you say that looking at someone who is psychedelized, one sees debilitation.....well again it depends on dosage, etc. Actually one can be...VERY VERY aware...of movement, and balance, and a vital 'hereness' and intensity, etc. So much so, it is more so that the so-called sober people the ecstatic might observe are the wooden clumsy and unaware ones

Yes it does depend on dosage. At lower dosages, senses are heighted (senses of touch, taste, sound etc). At these doses ones cogno motor abilities can be improved. Abilities to play a game, through a ball accurately etc - spacial judgement is improved. But at higher dosages a simple task such as making a cup of tea becomes a near impossibility. And yes there is a general heightened awarenes at all doses. In fact the senses still remain hightened at higher doses but are also distorted by the outer hallucinagenic effects.

It is only at the higher doses that the state of reaching a purer state of consciousness is reached, and this high point is the same whether we take any natural or synthetic hallucigen.


And i appreciate your experience/interpretation, but mine and others, is that the whole process from ingestion through to climax of ecstatic experience to the 'come down' will gradually reintegrate into one's ordinary state, and this integration brings really deep insight and deep relaxed feeling

Yes there is a deep realxed feeling after, mainly at lower doses.
Yes you always take part of the experience with you into your 'normal' life, you never completey forget or undo the experience.
But you do not take the knowledge or full rememberence of the short time you are experiencing the real high - the experience of real consciousness detached from the usual self.

Duendy,
I dont disagree with any thing you say or any of your experiences, but My drug taking was conducted over a many years and involved a number of different drugs. It was conducted usually in calm and ambient environments (away from the madding crowd so to speak).
The purpose was obviously pleasure seeking but also exploration of consciousness. It was conducted with like minded individuals and it did not take the form of mindless drug addiction. You may not initially agree with what I say but please dont dismiss is lightly.


i am suspicious with the attitude which seems to assume one can dispense with psychedelics and become 'enlightened' or whatever. Obviously we saw this dream in the 60snand 70s with tsome Guru/Buddhaetc seekin Hippies, and the growth of the so-called New Age, but from what i have seen and learnt, a lot of that is hypocritical and phony, and a kind of self aggrandizement.

I hear what your saying, but it all depends on the individual and I dont think you can generalise like that.

My feeling is that if there is any inherent reality in the drug experience (and not just hallucinagenic delusion) it must come from abilities that are already withing us - the drug only acts as a trigger. After all some people are born with abilities to have contact with the spiritual - phsycics etc. (again many are phony but some are not)



Also remember that Indigenous peoples who use a psychedelic sacrament do not have that attidue towards psychedelics. For them is it something rthey take as a commmunity and/or individually at certian special occassions during the year

Yes I am aware of this, it is socially accepting and in fact socially bonding aswell.
But is there not usually some form of initiation or rite when first taking the hallucigen, where a larger dose is given. and do not he shamans take larger doses than the general community ?


But to conclude I am now convinced that the correct and only advisable way to access higher consciousness is;
purifying mind and body.
enlightening the intellect as much as possible through study.
engaging in breathing and meditation excercises.

But I totally undersatnd if you disagree with that, but in my opnion in the end the drug will always cloud the potential these heightened states of awareness have.


(although a good dose of phsycadelics is a hell of a kick start to this process - he he) :D

Is there one?

me:: BELIEVE IT there is alright. dont just tink it is some quaint little jargon. it really is war and people are realy dying--not only in its effects, such as te inevitable gangsterism, but for example crops of illegal plants being sprayed with deadly toxic chemicals that also spays over te people down below? etc etc etc

I see each drug being treated individually. Lines like 'The War on Drugs' seem to be used by the press, not the Police.

me::no. it is a lumping together of all ''controlled drugs'.....if you get cuaght growing say cannabis or importing it.you will be treated as harshly as for coke etc


Recently, Cannabis has been re-classified as a class 'C', which could be seen as a positive move, but since July this year, 'Magic Mushrooms' in any form, even fresh, are now a class 'A', which seems a backward step.

me::not only is it a backward step, it is totally and utterly against our human rights!

I don't have a problem with recreational drug use per se. If people want to indulge in a relatively safe substance, that's their choice I think. I dislike the way drugs are smuggled and sold, and that entire culture however.

me::you mean all of it beng in the hands of criminals? which is caused by the war on drugs......but dont blame youraverage seller. i say this cause you were a bit judgemental about someon who might sell LSD. you termed them 'low lives'.
s i would like to ask you then: IF a person dos want to inulge what is their rightful freedom to--to take recreational drugs, just who would tey get them off if is was' for dealers? how could you get your potatoes if it wasn't for a grocer?

I'd be happy to decriminalise any 'home grown' fauna used for personal use, and concentrate law enforcement on abused pharmaceuticals.

me::i am vry vetrry anti te pharmacetical industry, and tey have a huge hand in te propaganda and demonization and persecution against recreational drugs......for obvious reasons

Or legalise and tax everything, and put the illegal dealers, smugglers and gun runners out of business.
i would want people allowed the freedom to grow their own yes. and/or have access to places like in Holland. togther wit education---real education about drugs, and the dangers of drugs which have been purified like heroin, crack, coke etc. all inspired by the drug war and the CIA!

Yes they are all very different and different combinations produce different results. And yes everyone gets something different from them. But these are all the outer effects of the drugs.

I say that at the centre of each experience of each different drug, the same thing is touched upon. The same consciousness or awareness (whatever you want to call it). If it is not the same awareness that is reached whichever drug is used to reach it, there is no basis for assuming anything real is being reached or connected with.

me::not really sure what you mean.

Yes it does depend on dosage. At lower dosages, senses are heighted (senses of touch, taste, sound etc). At these doses ones cogno motor abilities can be improved. Abilities to play a game, through a ball accurately etc - spacial judgement is improved. But at higher dosages a simple task such as making a cup of tea becomes a near impossibility. And yes there is a general heightened awarenes at all doses. In fact the senses still remain hightened at higher doses but are also distorted by the outer hallucinagenic effects.

me::i have never personally liked the term some poeple use to describe psychedelic experience as 'distorting' the senses. it gives the idea that there is 'definate' sense which is made dis-torted. i feel that more so our USUAL senses can be distorted via cultural indoctrination, and that psychedelic experince counteracts that conditioning....sometims extremely dramatically

But in my experience it is only at the higher doses that the state of reaching a purer state of consciousness is reached, and this high point is the same whether we take any natural or synthetic hallucigen.
me::what do you mean by 'a purer state of consciousness'? can you define what yo mean better?

Yes there is a deep realxed feeling after, mainly at lower doses.
Yes you always take part of the experience with you into your 'normal' life, you never completey forget or undo the experience.
But you do not take the knowledge or full rememberence of the short time you are experiencing the real high - the experience of real consciousness detached from the usual self
.
me::gain, i am not sure what you are meaning here.....?

Duendy,
I dont disagree with any thing you say or any of your experiences, but My drug taking was conducted over a many years and involved a number of different drugs. It was conducted usually in calm and ambient environments (away from the madding crowd so to speak).
The purpose was obviously pleasure seeking but also exploration of consciousness. It was conducted with like minded individuals and it did not take the form of mindless drug addiction. You may not initially agree with what I say but please dont dismiss is lightly.

me::i try not to dismiss anything, but explore about stuff

I hear what your saying, but it all depends on the individual and I dont think you can generalise like that.

me::you mean about givin up of psychedelic experince and guru-seeking?........its just i see a lot of phoniness with all of that. psychedelics usually very powerfully cut right through BS

My feeling is that if there is any inherent reality in the drug experience (and not just hallucinagenic delusion) it must come from abilities that are already withing us - the drug only acts as a trigger. After all some people are born with abilities to have contact with the spiritual - phsycics etc. (again many are phony but some are not)

me::Yes...i agree ...they are a 'trigger'. Albert Hofmann also says that. as for men who say they are touched with god or are more advanced etc etc. well errr ood for them if that what they believe. but i am not gonna follow them. all of us have our own capacities. we cant look-up to others and allow them to become our gods and we ther chillen

Yes I am aware of this, it is socially accepting and in fact socially bonding aswell.
But is there not usually some form of initiation or rite when first taking the hallucigen, where a larger dose is given. and do not he shamans take larger doses than the general community ?

me::have a fascinating book called Shamanism: The Foundations of Magic, by Ward Rutherford. He argues that shamanism is not to be confuused with the more agrarian vegetative ritals which were more part of the Goddess stream. for in he former the shaman tends to be male and becomes te authority--even often tims hving sole right over taking te sacrament, whilst the latter was more ecstasy for ALL. he explains that the shaman saw that as a threat to his authority......i of course am thus much more attracted to ecstasy being avialable for all, and free interpretaion of exerience, though insight into our interelation with Nature i feel is vitally important

But to conclude I am now convinced that the correct and only advisable way to access higher consciousness is;
purifying mind and body.
enlightening the intellect as much as possible through study.
engaging in breathing and meditation excercises.

me::i tend not to for various reasons we may discuss IF i doesn't disturb you

But I totally undersatnd if you disagree with that, but in my opnion in the end the drug will always cloud the potential these heightened states of awareness have.


(although a good dose of phsycadelics is a hell of a kick start to this process - he he) :D
...........()()()()(^)

.me::what do you mean by 'a purer state of consciousness'? can you define what yo mean better?




sorry cant be more help than that :confused:

Just experiences had....difficult to articulate.... sometimes difficult to even cognise.... I could dismiss ..except I have met others with similar to report....

sorry cant be more help than that :confused:
too vague for me to respond to

you see i am sure we could relate about seeing behind social masks. tat is when psychdelicized the ability to see behind a particular MASK a person (straight) may be wearing

you see i am sure we could relate about seeing behind social masks. tat is when psychdelicized the ability to see behind a particular MASK a person (straight) may be wearing

I can relate to that.

Now have we accessed a higher a larger consciousness to be able to perceive that.

or

has the drug just wiped some of the social conditioing from the front of our minds?


Probably both IMO

I can relate to that.

Now have we accessed a higher a larger consciousness to be able to perceive that.

or

has the drug just wiped some of the social conditioing from the front of our minds?


Probably both IMO
yes i agree. Both. in tat state of consciousness wht i find i that two 'sides' are seen to be ultimately connected. whereas in our--what i am callin our culturally indoctrinated--consciousness, we are led to believe that one thing can cancel the othe out. of course when i say 'cultural', in tis i include mythologcal, philosphical and religious indoctrination of course

so for example, if one posits 'highjer consciousness' what does this mean? what then has happened to 'lower'? do you see what i mean?

yes i agree. Both. in tat state of consciousness wht i find i that two 'sides' are seen to be ultimately connected. whereas in our--what i am callin our culturally indoctrinated--consciousness, we are led to believe that one thing can cancel the othe out. of course when i say 'cultural', in tis i include mythologcal, philosphical and religious indoctrination of course

so for example, if one posits 'higher consciousness' what does this mean? what then has happened to 'lower'? do you see what i mean?

I dont see it as two different consciousnesses, more a sliding scale of consciousness. I will use the analogy of a ladder (the ladder being consciousness);

we stand at the bottom of the ladder, we can see our front step, maybe some grass. All fine.

we then climb halfway up the ladder, now we can see over the wall and see the house next door. we can still see the step and the grass but our perception of it has changed.

we climb to the top of the ladder. WOW we can see the whole town. we look down at the step and it seems insignificant - our perception of it has completely changed, the bottom of the ladder is no longer important to us, because we are concerened with other things. BUT the bottom of the ladder is still there. It hasn't gone anywhere.

it is like that with higher and lower consciousness - because we climb higher the lower doesn't disappear. It just becomes un important.

it is like that with higher and lower consciousness - because we climb higher the lower doesn't disappear. It just becomes un important.

Why unimportant? Do you just mean less visible? The bottom of the ladder must be on very firm footing if you are not to topple when you get higher.

peace

c20

I dont see it as two different consciousnesses, more a sliding scale of consciousness. I will use the analogy of a ladder (the ladder being consciousness);

me:: a very shamanic idea...ie., of a ladder. have you read Jeremy Narby's book The Cosmic Serpent by any chance?

we stand at the bottom of the ladder, we can see our front step, maybe some grass. All fine. we then climb halfway up the ladder, now we can see over the wall and see the house next door. we can still see the step and the grass but our perception of it has changed.

we climb to the top of the ladder. WOW we can see the whole town. we look down at the step and it seems insignificant - our perception of it has completely changed, the bottom of the ladder is no longer important to us, because we are concerened with other things. BUT the bottom of the ladder is still there. It hasn't gone anywhere.

me::i tough about this idea in adifferent context after reading someone mention it. ie., i tought of te people living in comfortable existences...yet, if one were to raise eye level, it's see much more dangerous goings on in te wider now more exposed vicinity
Bu my view of tespectrum of consciousness potentia, is more a continuum, which i like to think of as spiral. so thaqt every stage and mood of consciousness is ok. that one doesn't HVE to be a superbeing, and yet can have access to ecstasy via sacraments. that to me keeps it more earthy and less pretentious. thoug one of course has to be careful of getting inflated through the interpretation of sacred experience

it is like that with higher and lower consciousness - because we climb higher the lower doesn't disappear. It just becomes un important.
there yo see. i wouldn't see it that way myself. for the moment you judge someting--event, etc unimportant you ignore a vital dynamic of continuum

there yo see. i wouldn't see it that way myself. for the moment you judge someting--event, etc unimportant you ignore a vital dynamic of continuum

Why unimportant? Do you just mean less visible? The bottom of the ladder must be on very firm footing if you are not to topple when you get higher.

peace
c20

Yes I think unimportant was a bad choice of word. It is important that it is there. I simply meant that our attention was not currently focusing on it.

And where we are on the ladder, or spiral is the point at which our consciousness is aware of itself being conscious (or conscious of itself being aware - I'm not sure) . The consciousness in a way is 'us', it just has to be aware of itself 'being'.

thats quite convoluted - - but im' hoping someone will say "I know what you mean".......

Yes I think unimportant was a bad choice of word. It is important that it is there. I simply meant that our attention was not currently focusing on it.

And where we are on the ladder, or spiral is the point at which our consciousness is aware of itself being conscious (or conscious of itself being aware - I'm not sure) . The consciousness in a way is 'us', it just has to be aware of itself 'being'.

thats quite convoluted - - but im' hoping someone will say "I know what you mean".......

lol. I do know what you mean ;) However I believe that our 'being' has to be subjected to the more physical lower conscious states in order that we develop 'character'. Using psychedelics or even extreme forms of meditation must never be done lightly because if you have not developed enough character through endurance experienced during lower states of consciousness, you will not be grounded enough to maintain 'self control' whilst in higher states.
The experience of being totally self-aware in a higher state of consciousness is a little bit like being a baby bird that has just found out what its wings are for but the baby bird must still be aware of where the safe ground is even if it the ground isn't looked at during flight. A bird that flies unaware that they have to land somewhere safe could well end up over a deep ocean.

peace

c20

lol. I do know what you mean ;) However I believe that our 'being' has to be subjected to the more physical lower conscious states in order that we develop 'character'. Using psychedelics or even extreme forms of meditation must never be done lightly because if you have not developed enough character through endurance experienced during lower states of consciousness, you will not be grounded enough to maintain 'self control' whilst in higher states.

me::why would you want 'self control'? surely free ecstatic exprience is more a letting go of restraints and boundaries? self-control on any mode of consciousness i see as the problem

The experience of being totally self-aware in a higher state of consciousness is a little bit like being a baby bird that has just found out what its wings are for but lmthe baby bird must still be aware of where the safe ground is even if it the ground isn't looked at during flight. A bird that flies unaware that they have to land somewhere safe could well end up over a deep ocean.

me::wonder what you mean by 'totally self aware'?

peace

c20
()**)(****))*)))))))))---------------*

why would you want 'self control'? surely free ecstatic exprience is more a letting go of restraints and boundaries? self-control on any mode of consciousness i see as the problem.

lack of self control in any situation is hazardous. free ecstatic experience without self-control could lead one to believe they can actually fly and jump off a bridge to prove it to their deluded selves.


me::wonder what you mean by 'totally self aware'?


Being acutely aware of your person objectively rather than the usual subjective state experienced when consciousness is not heightened.

peace

c20

lack of self control in any situation is hazardous. free ecstatic experience without self-control could lead one to believe they can actually fly and jump off a bridge to prove it to their deluded selves.

me::we are talkin different meanings. to not jump off a building, cliff, or into fire should be learned instinctual intelligence. for example in the case of fire, many children learn the hard way that fire burns. hopfully not to draaitically. so this knowledge becomes instinctual, as it is for other animals.
.....What I am meaning by self-control is when te psyche splits into a 'controller' versus a 'contrlled'. so example, you FEEL sad, but a part of you -the controller, having been indoctrinated by culture that being sad etc is 'bad' tries to control natural feelings...etc etc. get me. i am saying that this builds up a rigid sense of ego which cuts itself off from sensual experience, and Nature

Being acutely aware of your person objectively rather than the usual subjective state experienced when consciousness is not heightened.

peace

c20
'being acutely aware of your person OBJECTively' reminds me of what i warn about,
i also tink you underestimate ecstasy. you seem to paint it as though it is like being drunk and sense-LESS.....?

We differ duendy at a fundamental level. I do not hold a view that somehow I am indoctrinated against my will or to my detriment to prefer the familiarity of society. I am pleased to exercise control over myself and I 'prefer' to have my feet on the ground. I understand that the ecstacy you speak of has nothing to do with being drunk and senseless but the state is at odds with my desire for familiarity. I am not strong enough to deal with the level of emotions one can experience during such bouts of ecstacy. I become too despondant about the reality to which i know I must return. And return I must. I have other people's suffering to deal with.

peace

c20

We differ duendy at a fundamental level.

me;: we differ...yes, it seems so, but i dont know at a fundamental level. for at a fundmental level allis intimately interelated, even no and yes

I do not hold a view that somehow I am indoctrinated against my will or to my detriment to prefer the familiarity of society.

me::that is only for you to know though i could make comments

I am pleased to exercise control over myself and I 'prefer' to have my feet on the ground.

me::if you are 'pleased'...what can i say?

I understand that the ecstacy you speak of has nothing to do with being drunk and senseless but the state is at odds with my desire for familiarity.

me::my experience of ecstasy is that it is SUB-familiarity

I am not strong enough to deal with the level of emotions one can experience during such bouts of ecstacy. I become too despondant about the reality to which i know I must return. And return I must. I have other people's suffering to deal with.

me::there is no division between ecstatic expression and ordinary life. it is continuum

peace

c20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><

there is no division between ecstatic expression and ordinary life. it is continuum

then why draw the distinction at all?

peace

c20

then why draw the distinction at all?

peace

c20
well a continuum isn't a static entity...it is a flowering event, if you like.....it'd be absurd tp say ordinary life and ecstasy are the same.....yet

for example they intermingle as does death and life. for example most people will tink of 'death' being at the 'end' of 'life'. so this becomeslike a concept which influences actual feeling of being
But really when yer tink it, death is totally interlated wit life. when you go from here to there, 'here' has died,,,,,,its become the past, a memory.....so it's like te 'moment' is forever dying and being reborn

when you exprine ecstasy, the life behind these static words comes awesomely alive......every moment is ecstasy......and that is ecstatic isn't it. but that INTENSITY is yet ALSO part of contuinuum. yo cant always be like that. but yet ou can still have feelings of 'ecstasy' in in 'ordinary' life

where i feel some cults modern and anceint went wrong -as it were--even some who had psychedelic sacramaents, isthat they deified the ecstaic exprience into a 'God' which then became the goal to get to. espcially when psychedelics were eventually replaced by symbols and words

ten we get te idea of 'heaven' and 'hell', and for Middles Ages, Nature was considerd the 'Devil's Shit' which is like the hallway for eternal damnation

S i like to explore a relationship with psychedelics which dosn't disect the trip from the 'come down'....but integratews the insight of communion whilst also being aware of actual oppression by the State, and te desire to escape Nature.....why the livin fuck should we. what's needed is to speak UP for Nature

what's needed is to speak UP for Nature

Frustrating isn't it?

...I become too despondant about the reality to which i know I must return. And return I must....

You are not going to be received well with your dilated pupils and half baked smile, by people who are dealing with their day to day sh*t the best way they can. For them nature is surrounded with thorns and thistles and hearing you say 'Come, marvel at nature with me' just sounds out of place in their incredibly complex busy lives. They dont have time to. My advice is give them something to smile about. Help them out in practical ways. Then they may praise nature with you.

peace

c20

I'd have assumed that with the hominid ancestors of the human race going back several million years, they would have been experimenting (accidently at first but later deliberately) with various drugs they found occurring naturally. Perhaps, that being so, the Human brain has evolved with the help of the bursts of chemical signals released by the use of naturally occurring drugs. i.e. we have evolved along with and because of our ingestion of drugs, and about 40,000 we reached a certain tipping-point, when drug-induced creativity reached a certain level where the art-work of the caves became a normal part of life and culture at the time.

Frustrating isn't it?

me::can be very so, and despairing. when you see what is happening, and even shit you DONT know!

You are not going to be received well with your dilated pupils and half baked smile, by people who are dealing with their day to day sh*t the best way they can.

me::in that presumption you are building an image of me, underestmating me, and also being patronizing. am not angry, am just tellin you how i read that........not, speakin up for Nature is not just some naive running around 'eyes dilated' etc. it takes a much more broader approach. remember yu ARE Nature so your just naturally defending Nature and yourself and oters including other species.

For them nature is surrounded with thorns and thistles and hearing you say 'Come, marvel at nature with me' just sounds out of place in their incredibly complex busy lives. They dont have time to.

me::and tis is trowin the towel in for a peaceful life, and embracing conformity. also THAT is underestimting people also. people are complex they aren't 2 dimensional as you seem to think,

My advice is give them something to smile about. Help them out in practical ways. Then they may praise nature with you.

me::ok i will devote my time to create a teme park...hows that??
no.....you are going off on one here mate. you have to keep an integrity. it dont MATTER if noone listens to you. you feel wht you feel and do what you do!

peace

c20
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I'd have assumed that with the hominid ancestors of the human race going back several million years, they would have been experimenting (accidently at first but later deliberately) with various drugs they found occurring naturally.

me::yeah, same here, which is why i named tread as i did. the author who wrote the article seems to think te 'evidence' shows that ourspecies only may have begun using psychedelic vegetation only 40,000 years back, hence the 'sudden' advancement of tool making and beginnings of art......yet humans hve ben around a lot longer than that, and as you say SURELY must have ben aware of such powerful plants, fungi, cacti etc etc......?

Perhaps, that being so, the Human brain has evolved with the help of the bursts of chemical signals released by the use of naturally occurring drugs. i.e. we have evolved along with and because of our ingestion of drugs, and about 40,000 we reached a certain tipping-point, when drug-induced creativity reached a certain level where the art-work of the caves became a normal part of life and culture at the time.
i know from reading other sources--such as Animals and Psychedelics, by Giorgio Samorini tat even animals, insects etc seek out consciousness changing fruits, plants etc, which include psychedelics......So tis implies that our species and the other same types of species that preceded homo sapiens would propbably have also.........hmmmmm so whats wit tis number of 40,000...maybe it was a sudden metamorphoses of the human bodymind......

Duendy: I dont mean to patronise you. Sorry if it came across that way.

How would you practically suggest freeing these elements of nature that are otherwise caught up in conformity? (other than building a theme park :D which my kids would thank you for incidentally )


Thanks

c20

Duendy: I dont mean to patronise you. Sorry if it came across that way.
me::dont worry. you seem respectful generally so i wont whip you...hehe. not yet anyhow

How would you practically suggest freeing these elements of nature that are otherwise caught up in conformity? (other than building a theme park :D which my kids would thank you for incidentally )


Thanks

c20
love your questions........
we have to have the passion, which can come from psychedelic bonding with Nature.
It has to be understood, that the State philosoph is geared to separate the child from Nature and manipulate her him to accept the status quo. To be a slaave for the System. So 'bonding with Nature' with the help of psychedelic vegetation etc is a way to undo this cultural indoctrination

It also is important to begin exploring mythology. This is cause we usually all live via a mythology. As secular as our culture believes itself to be it is still myth. a paradigm. So exploring all about mythology, ancient, and modern, is a means to unravel the hold A particular myth may have over you

I realy recommend you checkout about Ecoliteracy which has been inspired by Fritjof Capra. I love this dude and have actually met him at a conference and shook hands wid him. he is a lovely person. I love the way he understands how introducing children to the Intelligence of Nature is incredibly important, and this is happening due to his and others' influences

So we need a kind of two way approach--really multiidisciplnary, multi dimensional approach to this vast vast issue. both ecstatic exploration with Nature and HONEST education

anothe important avenue of research--very--is the current myth holding it all together. ie., the myth of mental illness. I suggest people read Thomas Szasz and others about this myth, because as said it is the foundation of this paradgim as the Church dogmja was forits predecessor. Its belief effects everything. How you feel wit others, even how you feel about yourself, and severe unrelentless oppression of people, including children......

Imagine a situation back around 40,000 years ago--a bunch of guys goes into the deep recesses of a cave somewhere in Europe, say, and they want to work some magic before the go on the hunt for some mammoths. They take their firebrands, drums and drugs and whatever they use to paint. They get stoned out of their trees, start drumming and chanting, and call on their ancestors and/or gods to guide the spears truly, etc., etc., and paint their pictures by the flickering light of the firebrands. Well, you can see where the peak experience is going to come in when you've got all that going on as a backdrop. Considering all that, it's no wonder our ancestors were getting all creative about then, cos I'll bet it wasn't just the hunters who were getting wasted. I can see a lot of advantaged in being stoned out of your nut when you're having a baby, or you've been brought back to the cave or the hut with your guts hanging out after an aurochs bull has gored you. You've got have some powerful painkillers to handle shit like that, tough as they were. I'd say that at various times, every member of every tribe must have been stoned on occasion, even the small children. You know what they're like at getting into things and experimenting with new tastes.