How are tornadoes and electricity related? Can such a relation be used to stall or stop tornadoes? Can such a relation be used to form tornadoes? JMG.
Tornadoes, like a number of other phenomenon produce electricity. This often results in lightning. The tornadoes in themselves are produced by temperature differences in the atmosphere. The electric phenomenon associated with weather systems like tornadoes, typhoons, and thunderstorms are a by-product of the thermal convections inside cloud systems. The energy involved in the electrical charges is only a tiny fraction of the energy of the weather system and has no influence on its development. Electricity can neither be used to retard nor accelerate such systems. Hans
Good answer. However, there is a thing known as stirring stuff with magnetic fields. Using that approach, electromagnetism can stir the air to form tornadoes. Such fields would be strong, to say the least. JMG.
Please provide evidence for this 'stirring stuff'? None of my text books on Magnetics mention this. Isee yet, again, you have asked a question not to gain knowledge or clear a misconception but to further your agenda. Else you would have accepted Hans' answer and not sought to 'correct' them with psuedoscientific claptrap. What next, a thread on "What is the relation between Electricity and Vulcanism/Earthquakes/GRB's or similar.
Is "stirring stuff with magnetic fields" the technical name for it?Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Not the technical name... It is the practical generalization of what can happen. Some science labs want to stir stuff without touching the stuff. Such stirring can be done by magnetic fields. I will have to do a Google search for the devices so that the reality of stirring stuff with magnetic fields becomes recollected to suggest that appropriate name of the apparatus. Oh, it so happens that those devices, as I recall, also heat what is stirred. Essentially, the heating is what those devices are designed for. Such stirring and heating conforms with the initial responder's observation of stirring and thermal properties. If we want to get scientific we could replace "stuff" with "matter". Some people might say a magnetic stirrer cannot stir solids; however, those people can be sent to Google to search for spooky stories of caskets that moved on their own as if by a poltergeist when it was later found that those caskets moved because of both some magnetic fields in the tomb and also the iron nails used in the coffins. Oh, another Google seach can allow one to see the websites on levitating frogs to the center of a solenoid magnetic field. Using that concept, one can move an object in air from ground to a higher point if the apparent center of the solenoid field is at the desired destination. Such a field has to be quite strong for animals that are a considerable distance from the desired destination. JMG.
Thed, your incomplete information leads you to dispute the capacity of stirring and heating something with magnetic fields? Hmmm. Because of your incomplete database you then chose to advise me that I am pushing false science. To break such misconceptions and establish broadened brains or reaffirm foundations of thought, one might perform research. To assist you in your failure to find the reality of the scientific principle in question, I will perform a Google search on the devices which heat and stir stuff for laboratories to get stuff stirred heated to a particular temperature. It will then be your problem to apologize for your ignorant accusations and, at your option, search the US Patent Office to find the patents of those devices to see how they work. Previously, James, I and another poster have suggested having a Sciforums FAQ. Such a FAQ can end some misconceptions with facts and examples. We, as well as anyone else that stumbles into Sciforums Physics and Math, will benefit from such a FAQ. Enjoy learning! JMG.
links Here are two of many links to look up magnetic stirrers: http://www.labcraftsmen.com/page3.htm http://www.thomasregister.com//Sear...ing=magnetic stirrer&pn=80570807&uuid=&src=go Anyone disputing magnetic stirrer/heater technology like Thed can find more websites by performing a Google search for "magnetic stirrer." Magnetic stirrers are real and they do heat what is stirred. I expect an apology from Thed who claimed such devices are the realm of false science. Thed, you are welcome for expanding your mind. JMG.
Re: links Bwahahaha. Now explain how that explains tornadoes? Give your evidence that tornadoes are created by a rotating electromagnetic or magnetic field! To remind you , Note also that electromagnetism (light and radio waves for example) are not quite the same as magnetism. A magnetic stirrer is not the same as a putative electromagnetic stirrer, as you claimed. Which is it to be and how do you create meterological phenomena with it? Why does Tornado Alley exist?
Re: Re: links No evidence need be given that tornadoes result from electromagnetic effects; unless, you choose to fund said research. Do you? I will charge a fee of US$500,000,000.00 payable by paypal to godlied@yahoo.com. The terms will be to prove or disprove the presence of magnetic fields which cause tornadoes; and, you assume all responsibility for any property damage in the process of making a tornado machine. Advise me if an artificial tornado is sufficient for proof of possibility. Thed, your curiousity on storm activity and intense magnetic fields should send yourself searching into relations between electrical storms in the ionosphere and storm systems on Earth. Those ionosphere storms can disable power plants on Earth. I suggest you start learning. Remember, if you want to know how magnetic stirrers work, see the patents at the patent office. Post your queries not answering or discussing the concept of tornadoes and electricity to another thread. That includes your query about tornadoes and tornado alley. JMG.
JMG For the sake of the gentle reader of this thread let us recap the argument. You asked if there was a relation between electricity and tornados. Hans said no and you rebutted with the statement Two of us asked for further information. Note you said magnetic stirrers, not electromagetic stirrers, two very different things. Then you posted links to a common piece of lab kit. To remind you, you implied these are responsible for tornados. But you are mixing up two different phenomena and making an extraordinary claim based on a misconception. It is commonly accepted that, <ul> <li>The burden of proof lies on the claimant <li>Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence </ul> So where is your evidence. Saying 'No evidence need be given' is the sign of a very closed mind. I would like to see the logic behind your thinking that led you from Tornados->electricity->magnetic stirrers->electromagnetic stirring causing tornados.
Magnetic stirrers for laboratories work by putting a small plastic encapsulated magnet into the jar and spinning it with a magnet field from the outside. Electromagnetic fields can not, reperat NOT, set air in motion. Even extremely powerful radar beams only interact slightly with air (otherwise radar would be impossible). GodLied: Hans
The problem with the tornado being "stirred" electrically is that the air particles are not charged. I don't remember the physics of it, but I remember when a charged particle crosses a magnetic field it at a perpendicular angle takes on a corkscrew flight pattern. This would work if we could demonstrate that the air was charged and that something was creating a magnetic field. However, I don't really see that occurring. This brings up the interesting question, who here has watched a tornado form? I almost saw one form, it was really quite amazing watching the clouds swirld together. The air was definitely very electical and moist.
When organic stuff like frogs and bugs are brought to the center of a solenoid field by the solenoid field, the organic stuff rotated. Clouds are not organic but all one has to do is see if dirty clouds rotate in the presence of an appropriate magnetic influence. Some heaters have flat plates upon which a pot is placed to melt or heat stuff. When the heaters are magnetic, the stuff eventually stirs without being touched. Such stirring is used when one does not want to contaminate what is bieng stirred. I will have to look up another reference to those heaters to see that they stir stuff without the presence of a magnet placed within the stuff. JMG.
Sure. Anything conductive can be made to move in a rotating magnetic field. As long as you don't mind pretty strong electrical currents being induced in it (I think a frog might mind). However, clouds are not conductive, as proved by the fact that thunderclouds can build up millions of volts before the charge is released through lightning. Also, of course, to stir a tornado (assuming it could somehow be done) one would need a gigantic magnet field, drawing terawatts of power and playng havoc with electrical systems for miles around, and probably disturbing magnetic compasses on most of the planet. I'm sorry, but this parrot wouldn't woom if you put a million volts through it. Hans
Hans, I did not know there are more kinds of devices by the same name. You are correct that there are devices called magnetic stirrers which stir stuff without heating it. Examples of those things are http://www.pdcmachines.com/magnetic_stirrers.asp However, the magnetic stirrers I originally referenced are both heaters and stirrers. Such devices affect liquids and might be used in the manufacture of homemade soap. Once liquified, the heated liquid stirs without an additional apparatus immersed in the liquid. The link to that kind of a device is in one of my prior posts. Oh, if air cannot be set in motion by electromagnetic devices, how then can those air cleaners without fan blades suck air pollutants to it? Such suction in itself results in air motion by non-mechanical means. Hmm. Ionized gas squishes to the center of a solenoid just as a soda can squishes in the middle of a sufficient solenoid field. Your consideration that storm clouds which form into tornadoes cannot be manipulated by electromagnetic fields is to become tornadoes is now considered. Let us say that dirty clouds tend to become tornado clouds rather than clean white clouds. Dirty clouds consist of contaminants in solution with gaseous water. Such contaminants may make the cloud electrically conductive. So, the storm cloud is a mass of conductive material. Conductive materials in motion in the presence of a magnetic field become electrically charged. Conductive material in the presence of an alternating magnetic field become electrically charged. Electrically charged particles move in the presence of magnetic fields. Storms in the ionosphere can impose strong magnetic fields on Earth and can therefore impose stronger magnetic fields on clouds which are a considerable distance from Earth. An appropriate storm in the ionosphere can charge a dirty storm cloud and potentially give it a swirl. To test the idea, build a high powered magnetic stirrer that stirs by magnetic fields rather than mechanical parts. See if the device can make a small tornado. See if the tornado follows the device. See if the tornado stops when the device is turned off. If so, a tornado machine might be manufacturable such that a terrorist could destroy anything anywhere anytime. Such a machine need only expel a conductive gas, manipulate the gas to swirl towards the ground, intensify the motion of the swirl with intense magnetic fields, move the machine everywhere destruction is desired. Such a machine would reak havoc on navies, armies, and airforces. Wall of tornadoes in a desert would allow one millitary of few soldiers wipe out the other side with rapid, sand blasting action. Any defense cannot last long against a sandblasting tornado's edge. I firmly believe a tornado machine can be designed because it operates on the principle of magnetic stirrers. It remains up for testing to see if one can build a tornado machine with the appropriate superconducting materials which cost a lot, to say the least. Oh, if one could make a tornado, one can stop an existing tornado by placing the tornado machine above it and then effecting a reverse force from the direction the existing tornado spins. Because some tornadoes are quite wide, an anti-tornado machine is quite expensive to manufacture. So, it might be easier to apply something to the storm cloud to dissipate or eliminate the cloud so that the conductive element is removed from the mangetic fields driving it to manufacture a tornado. JMG.
Vandergraff generators generate electric sparks and are conductive. For dirty clouds to emit eletrical sparks, dirty clouds should be conductive. Their immersion in the insulation of air limits the amount of discharge options for clouds. Storms in the ionosphere have been known to cause damage to power plants. The ionosphere can impose tremendous magnetic fields on parts of Earth. When those fields become alternating fields, damage happens. I do not know if magnetic compasses worldwide become dysfunctional when there is an electric storm in the ionosphere over Quebec. Has anyone noticed dysfunctional magnetic compases in the presence of a tornado? Has anyone ever taken magnetic field readings as a tornado nears, while the tornado moves over a location, and then once the tornado leaves? Any variation in magnetic field readings would suggest a tornado is fueled by magnetic fields. JMG.
As Wikipedia, http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tornado, points out Tornados are dominant in America. Specifically in Tornado Alley. If this idea was even vaguely good there is something in America that causes more Tornados. Don't suppose Godlied would care to explain that within the framework of your theory. For a more realistic view on Tornados have a read of http://www.nssl.noaa.gov/NWSTornado/ http://www.nssl.noaa.gov/researchitems/tornadoes.shtml We can already make Tornados in the lab without the need for magnetic fields; http://www.exploratorium.edu/exhibit_services/ebtp/exhibits/group4/tornado/index.html Now, to provide a balanced argument I have found a web site detailing the idea of Tornados being caused by J and B fields in more depth. It can be read here, http://www.cafes.net/wallytul/ttheory.htm. It is worth noting that it has not been through the peer review system.
Look, mate: This is a DEAD parrot. You had an idea; fine, but it did not hold water. Live with it. Hans
Hi Hans, I went on the internet and found a website in dirt devils. That site stated how dust devils, snow devils, tornadoes, and hurricanes form. It suggested such things form from temperature differentials. In the case of dust devils, a voltage is generated by the dust devil. It did not say if the voltage kept the devil spinning or if the thermals kept the devil spinning. It also did not suggest one could use the dust devil to harvest power from temperature gradients. Hmm. JMG.
