Zionists answer back......

Discussion in 'World Events' started by outlandish, Aug 8, 2003.

  1. sweet Pentax Registered Senior Member

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    sounds like you are proud of it

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  3. nico Banned Banned

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    Truth I wonder if you think Apartheid was right? Or socialism in E.Europe? or Nazism all over Europe? Using your sick logic all these could be justified.
     
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  5. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Does he think those things are right? Even if he does are they connected? Nico your just a box of fallacy and insults arn't you?
     
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  7. nico Banned Banned

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    WCF of course you will say that because it's only logical to use these examples of history to prove his point. What fallacy my man? What did I say that was wrong? The Nazi's ,the Soviets, the Boers, the Americans, the Zionists all won and using his logic they were all right.
     
  8. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    This is a fallacy unless he already said this things were right you can not judge his logic "sick".
     
  9. nico Banned Banned

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    His logic is this: The victor over subjugated people's may impose the victors laws and mores of them.

    This has happened from Nazi's, Americans (over the Indians), Soviets, Japanese, Chinese, Zionists. Get off the moral highground crap and see it for what it is. Sick.
     
  10. sweet Pentax Registered Senior Member

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    i think that was rather questioning his logic ,not judge his logic ....
     
  11. truth Registered Senior Member

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    So, Nico, you equate the Jews with apartheid and Nazism? Socialism, you have been the one lamenting that socialisms demise is the reason now for so much poverty and it is all America's fault and then you equate it Nazism?!?!

    Manifest Destiny, a term used in America in the 1840s, for the westward expansion. Let us see, Canada has used it, England, France, Germany, Mohammed, ad nauseum, call it what you will, it is still the same thing. Do I support it? That depends, for America's westward expansion and the colonization of the country, sure. We didn't need to be so brutal with the Indians, I agree, but don't throw rocks, there is not a country on this earth that has not done this. Does this make us all wrong, I don't think so. Every country has done this to protect its people, resources, land, etc. Now the Jews have done it, and no one likes it. To quote a book title I ready in Germany about Israel, Pardon, aber wir haben gewonnen ( Pardon me, but we won). The world falls all over itself to apologize/justify murdering homocide bombers blowing up buses in Israel and say it is all Israel's fault, but if Israel hits back, oh the terrible Jews. Frankly, I think Israel has shown remarkable restraint, unlike 99% of the Arabs and Palestinians.
     
  12. nico Banned Banned

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    So, Nico, you equate the Jews with apartheid and Nazism? Socialism, you have been the one lamenting that socialisms demise is the reason now for so much poverty and it is all America's fault and then you equate it Nazism?!?!

    oh please SPARE me from your moral crap! The Jews didn't do anything. The zionist I can easily equate with the Apartheidists in South Africa. Marriage laws, work restrictions, etc. Your logic was they won, now they get to impose. Thus I brought you examples, or similiar situations. YOu said Zionists are like that not me, I just showed how your example can be seen. The rest is rhectoric, and a rant. I don't respond to those things.

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  13. outlandish smoki'n....... Registered Senior Member

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    Othdeap:


    Abraham is the father of Jews (and Arabs),
    Can you spot the inherent fallacy of that statement?

    Ismael is the bastard child of Abe

    Still Abraham's son, no disputing that.

    Abraham is the father of Jews
    Then why does Judaism not revere him as much as Islam does?
    Why do not Millions of jews make the Pilgrimage to the Kabah which the "Father of the jews" (as you put it) built with his bare hands?
     
  14. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    that is very true, it is not right or fair but that is what people do.
     
  15. nico Banned Banned

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    But u see that is not right as you even said. So then why does the Zioists do it? Even you admit it's wrong, do u support a sac-religious, imposing, apartheid state WCF?
     
  16. outlandish smoki'n....... Registered Senior Member

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    I'd like to ascertain exactly which Jews you speak of that have an inherent right to Israel. I'm assuming you mean the current people in Israel correct?
    Well on what basis do they claim a right to that land?
    1) On the basis of Racial/ethnicity .
    2) On the basis of shared belief system, ie Religion.
     
  17. otheadp Banned Banned

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    GK
    you're a better debator than me, but you're still an idiot.
    you ignore facts and keep being inconsistent with your opinions.
    im tired of seeing your babble and personal attacks on me.
    go sit on something sharp and rotate.

    welcome to my ignore list.

    ---------

    Wraith:
    maybe the jews don't believe that he built that kabah?
     
  18. outlandish smoki'n....... Registered Senior Member

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    Othdeap:
    Accordingly, Ibrahim and his son Ismail built the Kabah. Later through the decades the Kabah was rebuilt various times through history but always by maintaining the original stonework and dimensions. The Kabah has a great role in Islam, being the vocal point of all prayers as well as a destination for worship and devotion.

    http://anwary-islam.com/kabah.htm
     
  19. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    No it don't support such a state, but I also don't beleive israel is such a state.
     
  20. and2000x Guest

    FUN FACTS:

    -Did you know that ONLY Jews died in the holocaust. That's right, 800 trillion of them.

    -Did you know that if you question Israel that means you support the holocaust?

    -Did you know that the Jews have never hurt anyone and that they are always helpless victims?

    -Did you know that Israel was 'liberated' from evil Muslims, who worship Satan and butcher women?

    -Did you know that Israel is allowed to use Sarin gas?

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    Anti-semitism should hardly apply to Jews, considering the Arabs are more semitic than any Jew. Remember, their physical characteristics come from breeding with Gentiles, thus Arabs are the more semitic of the two.
     
  21. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Really, I hope you joking, because if you believe that I only feel get sadness and pity for you. If you do believe it, I would be glad to show you otherwise.

    by the way the word anti-Semitism according to Webster online is:

    So dispite logic I does only apply to jews.
     
  22. and2000x Guest

    Pity? Sadness? A good rule of thumb: never pity anyone, it brings you down.

    I don't give a damn what the dictionary said because it was written by guilt-ridden westerners. Arabs are semites and carry the traits of semites more than the jews do (except Arab jews maybe). I know the term is used only to apply to Jews, but it is a stupid rule. It's almost convenient in that someone who hates an arab can be called an anti-arab, which hardly carries the same baggage. I'm rooting for Palestine.
     
  23. Alagar Registered Senior Member

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    1.

    Hem, Hem! zionism does NOT equalize judaism with race. How funny it is to hear that from someone. Zionism equall judaism with nationality and culture. Of course, a main key of culture is religeon, yet if one would check the real figures, he would see that not only palestinians and jews live hear. We are not the state of the jewish race, but a the state of all its people, identified with the majority culture. Just like Germant, just like Poland, just like France and just like britain. In order to check how close I am, read the israeli declare of independence. It talks about an historical and traditional bond, and its religieos ideas are relating to culture. Never a racial one. There were zionist communist parties that signed the paper... how the hell the "All man are equal" idealogy would sit with what ones are implying on this thread?
    And to think someone would equalize Zionism with race...

    2.
    Israel wasn't intended by the first Zionists to become such a big and independent state. The 1920, 1929 and 1936-1939attacks on jews (whether zionists or not) and the support of the mufti of Nazism were those that created the shift in the zionist opinion, showing that arabs are not quite willing to except any post-1917 jewish presence. Only after that, we can see signs of zionist agression, and that is when the whole country is invaded by seven arab armies, and swept by a bloody civil war! 1% percent of the population died during that war, after more than 50% of the people died in europe during that time (actually, I'm quite exagerating here, since the holocaust count includes only europeon jews).
    Only pascifists can stand aside at such times.

    3. How can people really ask to respin the wheel back? Wouldn't it be quite hipocrit (sp?) to resend 6 milion people, inter-married from many countries, some 3rd and 4th and 5th generation, all with history of being persecuted in their former residence, back to the world?
    Or on the other hand, have those people finance (since Israel has developed an advanced social program) 6 milion palestinians, who were educated on hatred towards jews (not equasion to zionism here, it's just that Hamas iis using sacreligeos ideas, and it is the financial force behind most schools) after they have strived so much for national definition?

    4. Some might say - "you're right, but the palestinians did suffer a lot and most of the time it was not their fault. They had no hand or leg in antisemitism in europe and imigration-cut in the U.S that led to the jewish imigration into Israel/Palestine".

    They would be right, yet any solution besides the two-state one will bring harder problems into the equasion, and that is without reminding that israel is very highly populated. add 3 milion poor and historicly abused pals. in...
    Let me quote Sari Nuseiba, a left-winged palestinian, on this issue:
    "..Some refer to the right of return as a palestinian dream. It is one. It is a dream of living the quite life without western presence ever near us, and like most dreams, it is not possible. My dream is to get to a better position. A position from which we can go ahed, start a better life and not look backwards blindly ever again".

    5.
    One who knows about judaism not only from one type of sources, would know that the Talmud (free translation - Eductat) is a waffle of disagreements. Though the Halacha goes by the majority of the Poskim (Halacha = De yure, Poskim = deciders, again, my translation), the minority opinion is not erased and can be used as a takdim (a base on law decisions). There is such thing as religious Zionism, since some biblical ideas can match that activist approach after all.

    Being a little studied of torah, Halacha and religious approaches, I can really not see a way to decide "THAT is the real jewish approach!" and be overly calm about it. But I'm naturally an agnost, so it's hard to tell

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    6. Israel IS NOT a sac-religious state! It's a state relying mostly on religious culture, so religieon plays an important role about its social and sovereign values (for example, we support yeshivas, we only give kosher food at goverment-financed places like the I.D.F, the flag has a religious symbol, etc, etc..), yet only 15% of the public are ultra-orthodox, There is no serious intervention from the state into the public life (only the closure of some places during Yom kipur, and forbidding to sell on streets outside of a busnees non kosher food during pesah).

    That doesn't sound like a sac-religious state to me. It is like saying that "In god we trust" written on the franklins might imply that the U.S is sac-religious, and though critical as you may be about the U.S, Fundamental is not a word to use there.

    I will agree, though, that sac-religious groups are some of Israel's greater supporters, and most of its financial supporters.
     

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