Ghassan, we will just have to disagree. When I say the Jews being in Israel, Holy Land, I mean the Jews inclusively, including European, Ethiopian, etc., as such to me and millions of others, it is their land. Sure we would disagree , you say the earth is flat and I disagree and can prove you how it is round . But your disagreement is not based on conclusions afterwards drawn from logical consideration & compare of facts , it is based on your Baptist premis that God says the earth is flat , just like God says its land of a peoples binded by religion . Therefor your argument can be placed in the line of arguments that it is Muslim land or any other religion to claim a land , and even then your argument would be inferior . So yes we disagree , you cannot give me any logical argument on why it is land of this Jewish religion , asside of Baptist doctrine . Regardless, I wish all parties could get along. Chased out and massacred Arabs, some happened, but they had land under the mandate and lost it when they attacked the Jews in 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973. I can think of a whole lot of attacks against kibbutzum by Palestinians and Arabs, still ongoing. You see there is no regardless , the parties cannot get along because of this entire issue . In the end it is outside agressor against indegious defence , stop talking about the "Jews" because not all Jews are zionists . Do you simply suggest giving up because you believe you bible says thats the way its gotta be ? Either way Israel is there to stay, Arabs and Palestinians will have to accept it and I don't believe the US would allow that. Personally, I think Israel was wrong to give up the west bank, but now there is a Palestinian state (almost) and that still is not good enough. There is no Palestinian state nor is there almost one , and the fact that you actually tryin to sneek in this fraudness even before there is shit on damn paper is absolutely beyond my amazement . Are you familliar with Jack Van Impe & Rexala ? Are you Rexala's scriptwriter ? No it is still not good enough since nothing has been done to make it good enough . You think it is wrong ro give up WB , and you mention earlier Jewish land , tell me : Do you believe that the following map is what Jewish peoples are entitled to ? As this is the land G-d speaks of : Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Not a Baptist. By dying is meant a spiritual death, I firmly believe that everyone has the right to make their choice, but only believe that there is one true religion that has the full truth and authority to act in God's name. I believe that everyone will have the opporturnity to know the whole gospel truth. You say the Bible says that all non-believers must die, I am assuming you mean a physical death. That is why there are so many different forms of Christianity, everyone interprets the Bible differently, some for good, some for bad. By spiritual death, I mean they will not be able to be with God Himself.
Essentially eternal damnation? I feel that to be one with our god you believe in our god. If not then be one with your god/gods, I think the religion is a frame of hope, a way to guide your life. According to the Catholic church it is not how closely you followed the bible, what matters is that you did what you thought was right. You have to be able to justify what you did for the greater good. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Ghassan good points. nico: they are the monkeys... blindly believing that by sitting on their asses and praying all day, not supporting their brethren in the only jewish state in the world (which is constantly in trouble), they are doing god's will. the way i see it, if another holocaust comes in one form or another, these monkeys will at least have a place to run to... and run they shall israelis, as mostly secular people, overstepped these barriers that the book set for them and started taking care of themselves instead of waiting for king david on the white donkey coming to jerusalem (messiah)
they are the monkeys... blindly believing that by sitting on their asses and praying all day, not supporting their brethren in the only jewish state in the world (which is constantly in trouble), they are doing god's will. Oth, u should know as well I as I do. We live km away from each other. We have been told the same B.S haven't we? That Israel is a promise from god and Israel is god's gift to Jews. Well obviously it is, but not now. Israel is NOT a Jewish state, Jewish is a religion not a race. Israel is a ZIONIST state not Jewish, don't mix match. They are doing what YAHWEH told them to do, I suggest u do the same. the way i see it, if another holocaust comes in one form or another, these monkeys will at least have a place to run to... and run they shall Man the Holocaust was a result of many zionist- nazi issues: http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/tenquestions.htm israelis, as mostly secular people, overstepped these barriers that the book set for them and started taking care of themselves instead of waiting for king david on the white donkey coming to jerusalem (messiah) The only why those ppl are JEWISH is because of the book, and secular jews don't exist.
that map this map is from when that part was called "Cna'an" (Caanan?) i.e 3000+ years ago in those times arabs (or arabians) weren't so many and so widespread in the middle east. now it's unrealistic to demand all this territory (actually i have suspicion that somebody changed the map with photoshop...but even if not..) the sinai peninsula and the territory jordan occupied after the partition would be nice to have but we're stuck with a tiny piece of land....if only ppl would just leave us alone with that. and once again Ghassan, stop spreading your propaganda Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! . those lands were bought. those people either left on their own for better economic opportunity in other countries, or were asked to leave by arab invading armies so they could 'finish off the jews'
nico we live km's from eachother but i lived in israel before. Jewish is a religion not a race this question is constantly being debated. i believe that jews are a race. altho we dont look the same, we looked the same 2 thousand years ago. (this is the most accepted theory. the rest of the theories are brought up by either small groups of ppl, such as those ppl responsible for the site you posted a link to, or by ppl with political agendas.....we have a couple of those on this forum) secular jews don't exist you're talking to one.
i believe that jews are a race. altho we dont look the same, we looked the same 2 tho Jews don't look the same period, how is it that I can convert and become Jewish? Race, I don't think so. The Jewish race is a fallacy, Hebrews were the only Jewish race, they don't exist anymore. How is it when I asked a RABBI (are u a rabbi) if Jews are a race he said no? Zionism is the idea that jews are a race, you are a Zionist if you are a secular Jew. Jew is not a race again, Jews are a mixture of so many races that it is virtually impossible to be a race. Can u also explain to me the Chinese Jews of Kaifeng are they part of the Jewish race as well?
2 more cents re: the monkeys. these bastards are appeasing the anti-israel crowd. "leave us alone. see? we're not with them. look at our nice posters! plz don't hate us. just let us pray all day" pathetic traitors. we'll see where they're gonna run when one day they'll be in shit.... shit that they've been in -- countless times. Holocaust was a result of many zionist- nazi issues oh really... another conspiracy theory. that is just fuckin brilliant. blaming the victim.. the whole idea of zionism is to prevent holocausts. how about u blame all of world's problems on zionism??? http://www.nazi.org/library/faq/#judaism
pathetic traitors. It seems you are the traitor of your faith not them . that is just fuckin brilliant. blaming the victim.. how about u blame all of world's problems on zionism??? Stop being such a drama queen, my god. Zionism was not the victim of Nazi Germany. Zionism was a victor beacuse of Nazi Germany. Judaism was not Zionsm. The only reason why Israel exists is because of three main reasons: i) Holocaust ii) To let the Jewish dispora go back to "their land" iii) Zionism And if u trying to indicate that I am anti-semitic, don't even try it.
judaism is both race and religion. look, we can go on and on about this. you won't prove a thing to me, and i, as it seems, won't prove a thing to you. this discussion has been around for a very long time. you are a Zionist if you are a secular Jew no man. my grandma is really anti-zionist....and she's not religious yet she's JEWISH never heard of Kaifeng... gonna look that up. to determine the truth you gotta know where they came from. did they adopt judaism or are they decendants? (as hard as that may be to comprehand for u) i remember having a discussion about anthropology here on sciforums. the general accepted belief is that all humans originated in 1 place in africa and then spread out all over the world. that means that the reason we look so different is external factors. we're talking about thousands of years here. that's long enough time for at least some physical change, don't you think?
no man. my grandma is really anti-zionist....and she's not religious yet she's JEWISH Your grandma ain't Jewish my friend. never heard of Kaifeng... gonna look that up. to determine the truth you gotta know where they came from. did they adopt judaism or are they decendants? Does it matter u said all jews are a race, according to your logic these Chinese must also be part of the Jewish race. Yes all decend from a common ancestor but you claim that you are a race. A race is a group of ppl with similar features, and traights, usually from the same region. Jews are non of those things. As for your article, it is funny. Simply put Jews did not Zionists did. One is not the other you have understand this. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Your grandma ain't Jewish my friend when you say stupid things like this it makes me wanna stop debating with you...
when you say stupid things like this it makes me wanna stop debating with you... It's not stupid it's the truth. Sorry man.
If he say his grandmother is jewish then why do you not beleive him? do you have proof his grandmother is not jewish?
Othead : that map That is the promised land to Abraham . Abraham was not A Hebrew nor Israelite nor Jew but a Sumerian from Ur . Hebrews started with Eber and Israel with Jacob , while Jews started with Mozes . in those times arabs (or arabians) weren't so many and so widespread in the middle east. Arabs are not tribal & Arabians (Sabeans that is) are post-Sumerians . And your God was talking to one of them , Abraham . Now weither that land is promissed to Abraham and all of his peoples , or Jacob including all of his peoples , or Mozes and all of his peoples , or just any person of a religion like Judaism or Islam , that land is what is said to be the promised land . actually i have suspicion that somebody changed the map with photoshop... I think you are imagining maps I dont see any map what map ? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! now it's unrealistic to demand all this territory Well Oth I would demand your house on Bathurst if it wasnt unrealistic , however would I have any moral option on it ? the sinai peninsula and the territory jordan occupied after the partition would be nice to have but we're stuck with a tiny piece of land....if only ppl would just leave us alone with that. Betar youth I see ? Yes ofcourse , futuristic Oth in Toronto : Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! and once again Ghassan, stop spreading your propaganda . those lands were bought. those people either left on their own for better economic opportunity in other countries, or were asked to leave by arab invading armies so they could 'finish off the jews' There was land bought from thieves , there was land confiscating from Arabs with or without buting from thieves , there were massacres that made peoples flee and 400+ Arab Muslim+Christian villages have been destroyed . Any outside Arab incitement to leave your entire life behind is considered of very doubtfull influence that is if high political words would actually reach the indegious peoples of Palestine . believe that jews are a race. altho we dont look the same, we looked the same 2 thousand years ago. * 2.000 years ago is not today * the extreme morpheological differences after 2 millenias show the extreme amount of mixing that makes you racially other groups of today or even yesterday much more than racially Hebrews of 2 millenias ago . Thus racially you are rather a Rus (Baltic) or a Slav or some mixture like all other peoples surrounding you . All that you have to share in some sense with Hebrew Israelites is your religion of Judaism . 2000 years is 20 centruries . in 100 years you can count on at least 4 generations . Each generation is a potential mix , how long do you think you need not to share racial traits with those peoples ? Why cant you understand that based on the fact that you share the morphology of the native surroundings , the only reason you would rather choose , yes you choose , your decendant to be a Hebrew Israelite rather than some tribe of Rus or so Slavic tribe or some Turkic tribe even , ONLY because of the heritage of a Jewish religion . * And then there's the converts and conversions in history . Race & Religion exist independantly from eachother , one can originate with another , and unfortunatly enough , the other way around as well as we see with your beloved ideology . Rather the riddance of religion would create it . this is the most accepted theory. the rest of the theories are brought up by either small groups of ppl, such as those ppl responsible for the site you posted a link to, or by ppl with political agendas.....we have a couple of those on this forum By who ? Who accepts the theory that a todays peoples is racially equal because of yesterdays races ? Obviously no self-respecting anthropologist . I mean simply disregarding time then what am I , Babylonian ? Sumerian ? Also popularity fallacy IS NO ARGUMENT . Neither is source-refutation . And who would those peoples be with political agendas ? Tell me please , Me ? Not as bad as surely . Funny thing , small groups : ZIONISTS aint that big you see ? you're talking to one. Thats because you accept that to be a Jew is racial , therefor you are Jew independant of religion . Partially you are correct though , be it on on the racial point but on the fact that you are Jew because of a Jewish mother . re: the monkeys. these bastards are appeasing the anti-israel crowd. "leave us alone. see? we're not with them. look at our nice posters! plz don't hate us. just let us pray all day" pathetic traitors. we'll see where they're gonna run when one day they'll be in shit.... shit that they've been in -- countless times. They have been in shit yes and unfortunatly for you they have also been in shit because of their greatest enemy of their life , culture and religion , witch is zionism . You call them traitors yet it is zionism that has betrayed the Jewish peoples to Nazi's , it was zionists who talked in disgust about the Ghetto way of life , Hassidism and my God even the physical traits of Jews were ridiculed in disgust . And yes after they have been in shit they will be in shit again , and AGAIN you will be involved in it . That is because Arabs have peoples just as brainless as you who believe are this special race of peoples , not for the good as you would put them , but for all the evil in the world . And those peoples will blaim every Jew they see for what Zionism has done and attack them while they are innocent . Again thank you for helping out your "brother" they would say to a zionist . oh really... another conspiracy theory. that is just fuckin brilliant. blaming the victim.. the whole idea of zionism is to prevent holocausts. how about u blame all of world's problems on zionism??? * blaming all on one ideology wouldnt all to far of your original way of seeing things Oth . * saying that documented evidence and an entire historical logical context and even admittal on some fronts of facts is some conspiracy theory really only proves that you have never heard of the word argument before in your life . * the whole idea of zionism is indeed to prevent holocaust . However nazism came along and when zionists have been put to the choice to save all euro jewry through resistance or sell out as the traitors they are to save their own ass , they chose the latter . From 1933 till 1942 Zionism & Nazism have collaborated on various levels , get over it . http://www.nazi.org/library/faq/#judaism Why the hell do you link us with that ? the general accepted belief is that all humans originated in 1 place in africa and then spread out all over the world. that means that the reason we look so different is external factors. we're talking about thousands of years here. that's long enough time for at least some physical change, don't you think? Othead , you should not be allowed to discuss anthropology . Im serious you are claiming that in 2000 years (actually 1000 years as Jews were white & in Euro at that time) entire morphologic changes happen from Hebrew Israelite to a Baltic ? I remember your claim about this whitest Arab you had seen , this Palestinian or something . You couldnt believe Arabs would look like that so (witch obviously showed your cluelesness as majorities or regions like Syria, Lebanon , Palestine , Iraq are like as white as that dude or even far whiter . You then concpired how he was third generation and him being in America or Canada (somehwere cold I assume , lol) would have changed his appearance . Im sorry Oth but that one totally blew away all credibility you ever had on anthroplogical issue of race . One more time Oth : You cant become white by living in Germany or Poland for some 1000 or even 2000 or even 3000 years . Creoles didnt become Black after 500 years nor did eskimo's become white . Yes morphologic change is because of climate , but not in the tempo you would want it to be . Why do you wanna be Hebrew Oth ? Cant you just accept that we are all of the same human race ? Is it bad not to be a Hebrew ? http://www.kahane.org/meir/dear_world.htm Excerpt ? Comment ? Point ? If all of those arent there u should rather link it in that link-thread than here as it has no function for discussion since you dont point out one . http://www.parentsofjewishgaysandlesbians.co.uk/
the whole idea of zionism is indeed to prevent holocaust . However nazism came along and when zionists have been put to the choice to save all euro jewry through resistance or sell out as the traitors they are to save their own ass , they chose the latter . From 1933 till 1942 Zionism & Nazism have collaborated on various levels , get over it . you REALLY should watch "the believer" (i already recommended it to you before. apparently you haven't seen it yet) popularity fallacy IS NO ARGUMENT why is it a fallacy? the 'jewish conspiracy' deceiving the world again? Jews started with Mozes Abraham is the father of Jews (and Arabs), not Moses. moses was born in ancient egypt among jews. my bible is kinda rusty but as far as i remember, Ismael is the bastard child of Abe and one of the slaves he had. she ran off with Ismael or something like that....but then Sarah got pregnant at a very old age and gave birth to Isaac that continued the jewish lineage. and the promissed land was promissed to Abe's lineage so arabs claim that since Ismael is part of abe's lineage they deserve the promissed land. And yes after they have been in shit they will be in shit again , and AGAIN you will be involved in it . That is because Arabs have peoples just as brainless as you who believe are this special race of peoples , not for the good as you would put them , but for all the evil in the world . And those peoples will blaim every Jew they see for what Zionism has done and attack them while they are innocent . Again thank you for helping out your "brother" they would say to a zionist . i suppose zionism was to blame for pre-zionist killings of jews? http://www.kahane.org/meir/dear_world.htm Why do you wanna be Hebrew Oth ? Cant you just accept that we are all of the same human race ? Is it bad not to be a Hebrew ? you're good. you're very good. you should be a politician cause you sound just like snowball or napoleon from animal farm Obviously no self-respecting anthropologist ... wtf is this? i should call you napoleon from now on. lol its funny how you keep saying "it's been proven" about this and that. and how stupid it is of me to argue the "proven" u know what, nothing of what you claim has been proven. it's conspiracy theorists that started coming up with new ideas very recently, and then the opportunists and those with their own agenda quickly jump on those ideas.
you REALLY should watch "the believer" (i already recommended it to you before. apparently you haven't seen it yet) No ..... is this for real ? Are you actually suggesting that the seeing of some movie would change accademic research ? You already advised me witch asside of it to have any argumental value , is very nice , and I already asked you the argument behind it but you never gave one . So again , what is so amazing about the believer that zionist-nazi collaboration is no longer a historical fact or moral issue . What ? why is it a fallacy? the 'jewish conspiracy' deceiving the world again? Its a fallacy because it is not logical , it is called logical fallacy . Do you have any idea of logics at all ? It is called appeal to popularity and is constructed not logical because there is no logical relation of diminishment or increase of truth between impopularity (*the theories are brought up by either small groups of ppl*) and popularity (*this is the most accepted theory*) . Logical Fallacies Appeal to pupularity fallacy Your Othead Questions can only be answered by another Othead , Im sure your Arab version would easily claim what you try to present here . How the hell would a person claim logical fallacies are a jewish conspiracy man ? And why do you hang on to this Jew-zionist equalization of yours ? You're so repetative yet u dont answer one thing , look : Jews | Non Jews | Zionists | Get it ? And again , conspiracy is not what anyone would use other than Arab versions of you , Aravim Oth . Abraham is the father of Jews (and Arabs), not Moses. moses was born in ancient egypt among jews. my bible is kinda rusty but as far as i remember, Ismael is the bastard child of Abe and one of the slaves he had. she ran off with Ismael or something like that....but then Sarah got pregnant at a very old age and gave birth to Isaac that continued the jewish lineage. * What was the first scripture ? No scripture no religion . * You like saying bastard to Ismael do you not ? Sad Look its very simple Abraham was from Ur in Sumeria . The peoples of Israel were not such untill Jacob was called Israel . The only mistake I seemed to have made is to say that Hebrews were post-Abraham , at least biblically this isnt so since Eber was pre-Abraham . * Jews & Arabs dont go together like that : There is no possibility of Abraham to create Jews and Arabs seperate from eachother as with Jews & Arabs its like : Arabs | Non Arabs | Jews See there are Jews who are Arab , get it ? Im sorry Im trying to make u get thing but by God it is beyond human capability Im affraid . and the promissed land was promissed to Abe's lineage so arabs claim that since Ismael is part of abe's lineage they deserve the promissed land. Oth-version Arab arguments are really not that relevant here . i suppose zionism was to blame for pre-zionist killings of jews? No Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Was there a Hassidic argument against zionists pre-zionism ? No , so your point is 0 You link me this with nothing : http://www.kahane.org/meir/dear_world.htm I link you with this : http://www.parentsofjewishgaysandlesbians.co.uk/ you're good. you're very good. you should be a politician cause you sound just like snowball or napoleon from animal farm I didnt read the book , but Im sure you sound like whoever was moo-ing along with the masses of ignorance . wtf is this? i should call you napoleon from now on. lol I should call u cattle its funny how you keep saying "it's been proven" about this and that. and how stupid it is of me to argue the "proven" u know what, nothing of what you claim has been proven. it's conspiracy theorists that started coming up with new ideas very recently, and then the opportunists and those with their own agenda quickly jump on those ideas. Im sorry but with these replies , again , you show how you in no way can be taken seriously from . Obviously you are a joke , ha ha . U meet your purpose . And this on a forum where science surrounds like no other , oh man ........
If the facts don't convince that the Jews have an inherent right to the land that constitutes Israel, if religion does not, then I have two words "MANIFEST DESTINY!", for the Jews. The victor gets to write the rules.
