Discussion in 'World Events' started by Z7575, May 31, 2010.
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No, it's just a watered-down ethnic-separatist, pro-zionist perspective. Here's another, that I think commands a considerably wider view:
The Truth Behind the Israeli Propaganda (Fisk)
Chomsky? Dont tell me, because he is Jewish? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
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How is Hamas supposed to raise wealth? Hamas doesn't know anything but 'the cause'. Building a thriving, self-governing, civil society that doesn't pose any problems for the Palestinian people and the Israeli's is doubtful. I also don't think you need to remove Fatah. I think Fatah can be assimilated into Israeli society and retain their identity as a people.
Hamas shares a characteristic found in almost all politicians – a strong desire to remain in power. Thus, I suspect they secretly are happy with the blockade and the other acts Israel does to make life miserable for the typical Palestinian. I have a low opinion of many Politicians, but can only think of one or two groups more despicable than Hamas. (The military rulers of Burma are at the bottom of my list. At the wedding of the main leader's daughter a few years ago the Jewels she wore were worth more than the total income of 90% of the other population! Dozens of stones worth 10 million dollars each, etc. while monks are beaten and people starve. I tend to be a boarder line "peacenik" but have posted that the US B52s should first drop leaflets on the new, well isolated and protected, city of million dollar plus homes they built for them selves telling that in two days it would be reduced to rubble, if they did not set AnWanChen -spelled wrong - Noble peace prize winner and actually elected leader, free.)
I am not sure exactly what you mean when you accuse me of wanting to “ease” the blockade. In my post I said that even if my suggestions were adopted the blockade would need to remain in place for about two decades more (or perhaps longer, did I not?) However I do think what is blockaded needs to be immediately changed so that Palestinian do have more options to do what you suggested – work and learn how to be part of a civil society. For example let paper and pencils in so schools children can learn better, Let fishing equipment in so their father can catch fish, let medicines in without restrictions, so none of the children or old die for lack of it. Etc. Keep out weapons, and IMHO that includes slingshots so long as there are Palestinian kids throwing rocks at Israeli tanks etc.
I think we totally agree here. To end the existence of Hamas would be a big step forward for peace.
Unfortunately, some in Israel also do not want peace. They are happy the Palestine people are disorganized and very politically divided as this give a very plausible reason why peace efforts always fail: – “We want peace, but there is no one to even negotiate with on the Palestinian side of the table.” I.e. There are politicians on both sides more concerned with gaining strength for their party (Israel is also very divided politically.) than doing what is good for their country in the long run – and that is always to strive for peace. As I said before: The Palestinians need more reason want to live, not more reasons to want to die in efforts to kill some Israelis.
SUMMARY: It is in Israel's interest to give them a better life, and more opportunity to work, to catch fish etc. Collective punishment is counter-productive (and that is much more important than fact it is also a war crime.) As I said, I am a pragmatist, not much interested in who has violated UN regulations and resolutions most, what does or does not constitute a “legal blockade” or the “high seas” etc. etc. I want Israel to switch from the failed High Kill Ratio policy and defend ALL it citizen for the terrorist in Gaza and maintain this impenetrable defense, weapons blockade included, for about 25 years so most of those, on both sides, so filled with hate that they cannot think straight – act in their own self interest – die in the beds of old age. I want this because it is Israel’s own best interest (as well as morally just treatment for the Palestinians.)
It is too late for the Bedouins. Israel has exterminated them and their culture, just as early Americans exterminated dozens of Indian tribes or as Brazil’s “pioneers” killed off even more native tribes. One can lament, but not undo the past. Israel needs to look towards its future, which I hope does not include black balloons, filled with anthrax or Ebola dust, drifting across the borders on moonless nights.
@Spock- I typed Chomsky and meant Fisk. It was sort of a weird slip, sorry
Exactly! Hamas won't be able to do these things and worse won't be able to blame Israel because Israel won't be blockading them or controlling their logistics. The Palestinians peopled at first cheering that the blockade is gone will soon become fed up that their economy is not improving greatly, they will have no one to blame but hamas.
Then Israel will lose its identity, the Palestinians will take majority control of Israel.
I disagree: it's as viable an idea as anything else. Essentially: two-state. Is two-state necessarily bad?
It is if the tactical and strategic gerrymandering consistently ensures that Palestine (and especially the WB and al-Quds) remain a perpetually failed and fragmented state. One-State means no apartheid, no special rights for Jews, and equal rights for all Arabs and immigrants, be they Muslim or Jewish, devout, secular, indifferent- a Modern State respecting the modern consensus about basic human and civil rights.
How could they take a majority control when they are a minority?:shrug:
Many more Palestinians want to live in Palestine, than Jews who want to live in Israel. It's not the only factor, but it's a factor in the long-term status of Israel. I hope they keep the name, with borders that include the occupied territories, and that embrace all citizens with equal rights. If Israel can't do that, Israel is not to be associated with reliable governments profiting in conformity with modern international norms. Jews will become a minority in an Israel that can stand up to the trials of civilized living among multicultural neighbors. But if their government gets out of the unbalanced rights-rationing business, they will find it frees up a lot of resources for wiser investment. Israel is positioned in a very colorful region of nations, and there are a lot of different ways that a "ruling" family, clan, or ethnicity have gotten top billing. Treat Palestinians fairly as compatriots, and set up an enduring democracy under the Israeli flag. For Israelis, abolition of apartheid can be easier than their first Independence- less effort, more security than the present track.
Only under certain conditions.
I'm going to interrupt you there. The last version of one-state (pre-1948)didn't have anything resembling equal human rights for anyone but the majority population. I don't have any hope that a new version of one-state would be any different; this is strongly reinforced by the status of non-Muslims in every other Islamic country in the world. The best-case (and most likely) scenario would be another civil war, sooner or later; prior to that would be rioting, oppression and repression. It would be same version of apartheid as before, with the conscienceless Sams of the world standing and cheering on its "natural" state: Jewish people being on the bottom. I've seen too much of her dialogue to think otherwise, and her sentiments are not that uncommon.
Billy T the blockade is not a war crime. Anyway I don't agree with you on that point the blockade is internationally recognized. The friction between Hamas and Fatah are showing the weakness among their present forces and it needs to be melted down to the group that is actually viable in terms of leading, like looking for the strongest and most socially stable alter in a dissociative personality disorder. I'm not convinced that the blockade isn't really working in terms of showing Hamas flaws.
Not at anyone in particular, but I think it total nonsense to suggest that Jews and Palestinians could live in one state before living in two separate states peacefully for several generations. Even then, given the economic cost that West Germany experience with REUNIFICATION (not assimilation of foreigners), it is highly unlikely that Israeli would want to take on the task of bringing the Palestinian population into a modern 19th (yes 19th) century society such as the US was when the car was invented.
That's part of the reasons why they were a pushover.
What sort of change in Israeli policy could change that situation in a very short time? Equal rights in Israel.
If you really think that the most Israel can aspire to is to be an eternal pariah neocolonial state beating down the indigenous, I'm surprised at your apparent pessimism about Jewish people.
I did not say it was "internationally recognized" and am not very much interested whether it is or not. I have told you (and others) that I am a pragmatist, not a lawyer, and have no interest in these very academic questions. Thus, I just refer you to what was posted in post 1106 and James' link also there. I.e. blockades can be legal and then not a war crime if:
Paragraph 102 of the Manual prohibits a blockade if “the damage to the civilian population is, or may be expected to be, excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated from the blockade” - It hard to argue that this condition is being met in the case of Gaza.
Again I favor keeping a more intelligent version of the blockade for at least two generations. I.e. one that stop the import of weapons* but allows import of tools, such as fishing rods, paper and pencils, cloth for making clothes, Etc., Etc. and all medical supplies. I don't believe the blockade should be "collective punishment" more because it is counter-production for reason I have discussed (helps keep Hamas in power ,etc.) than because collective punishment is a war crime.
BTW I think that is what I said, not that the blocked is a "war crime," but if I did say that it was linked to the collective punishment aspect of the current blockade.
* I certainly include slingshots in that, given that as a youth I had at least a 50/50 chance of hitting an eye sized target from 5 meters away. I have already noted that skull bone behind the eye is very thin. A well directed, high-velocity marble is very likely to come to rest (along with bone fragments) in the brain. - I would call that a weapon. An easier to use one than David's, which killed Golith if one can believe that story.
PS “the damage to the civilian population is, or may be expected to be, excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated from the blockade” is how concept of "collective punishment" was expressed before these two more compact words were invented to describe what the Nazi did when a German was killed by the French resistance.
If the west bank and gaza was to be assimilate into Israel, the Palestinians and arab Israelis would be the majority of Israel, Israel would be majority Muslim.
Oh yeah? I can kill people with plastic butter knives. I mean, I can kill people who limit their weaponry to plastic knives. OK I can kill zem without the butter-knives too. Keep all such skills and threats out of Israel? Good luck with that.
To hypewaders: thanks , I sort of like your "Billy Toughguy" and perhaps deserve it:
I have called for "pounding the hell out of the launch area from which Gaza rockets come for 5 minutes ASAP with counter battery artillery" which can be done in less than a minute after the launch and with luck, even before the slow Gaza rocket hits the ground. (Why all modern artillery has "shoot and soot" capacity.)
I have called for B52s reducing a whole isolated city of only million dollar plus homes in Burma to rubble if the military leadership who lives there does not release AnWanChe and negotiate smooth transfer of power to her as the elected leader.
I have called for a US navy sub to sink the second best ship the North Koreans have.* I think the crew should be given 10 minutes to get into life boats - I must be turning soft in my old age, but please don't take my new title away.
*The US follows NK's example and with straight face tells the world it had nothing to do with NK's "unfortunate loss of such a fine ship." Thru back channels, the US notes that they can lose their best ship too if they become aggressive towards SK with more than words.
PS to hypewaders:Plastic knives is all you get on an airplane, but they will give you two small GLASS wine bottles - brake bottoms off and you have one one for each hand - go figure!
Later by edit: I was just reading Bloomberg's story about the peaceful diverting of the MV Rachel Corrie -- named after an American activist killed by an Israeli bulldozer while protesting home demolitions in the Gaza Strip in 2003 - which included:
"Israel launched an operation in the Gaza Strip in December 2008 that it said was meant to stop the firing of rockets into its territory. More than 1,000 Palestinians and 13 Israelis were killed in the conflict. Since the end of the three-week operation, some 330 rockets have been fired from Gaza into Israel, killing one foreign worker last March, the Israeli army said."
Full story here: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aAs5YB2xtl6A&pos=8
I.e.the high kill ratio policy, which I think harms Israel in the long runs is currently more than 77 to 1.
At least that is down from the >1000 to 2 in the invasion of Lebanon.
That's silly. Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are going to suddenly equalize human rights for non-Muslims because Israel stops being provocative? They had 1400 years to do so and still didn't. This suggests something more than mere Israeli hubris.
I don't feel that way at all. But Two-State is the only viable option. Regrettably, it's been roundly demonstrated from Morocco to Malaysia.
Separate names with a comma.