Zionist piracy

They did not "build a state", the Europeans gave it to them. And supported them with arms and aid. Anyone can "build a state" given arms and aid. There is a whole bunch of dictators who have done it. Regardless, their building of the state directly contravenes the Geneva conventions and since they will not admit to occupation, because there are patsies out there who prefer words to action, they cannot justify the blockade, the manner of which is also a war crime.

This flotilla raid looks like the last straw - lets see what they do with the Corrie. They are essentially fucked no matter what they do at this point.

 

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Doesn't matter Sam, the English gave the US to its settlers and the US is a nation. I also disagree with 'they did not build a state' since there is a whole lot of infrastructure put in place by Israeli's. Maybe they should just smash everything they ever built and just leave the palestinians with rubble! I mean you cannot pretend that there is not a thriving state built by jews and the ground was once called 'palestine'.

War crimes? And who is going to accuse them of war crimes? Not the UN surely you are not that naive. And if you could get someone to accuse them of war crimes, who is going to enforce the measure? Who exactly? This is where people who speak of Israel in this manner seem like they've been on the weed too long. Its unrealistic and also unprecedented. When you have removed the Chinese from Tibet and its restored to the Tibetans and you have been able to bring back all the refugees then let me know.

The flotilla thing is not going to dismantle the Israeli state anymore than pictures of crimes in prison camps could topple the US. If you want realistic results you have to ask for something realistic.

 

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Agreed. I was referring to the dominoes falling against Israel. From groups and organisations protesting the blockade, we now have governments taking a stand. I'd be satisfied with a full blown BDS by the time 2020 rolls around.

 

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Check out the thread you started in ethics. I left something there for you since no one seemed to know what you were getting at. It pretty much sums up what the problem is concerning the 'international community' and all that jazz. Oh what is BDS? I can only come up with a bachelors in dental surgery

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Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions

UCU and UK UNITE have voted 100% for BDS against Israel. Many other organisations in Europe are following suit. The US will probably not join in anytime soon, but with grassroots investment in the strategy, its gaining momentum. It took about 20 years for BDS to pick up in South Africa, lets hope we can get it moving faster in Israel, inspite of wide-ranging IDS

As you have seen, we really cannot depend on heads of state or HR organisations to make a difference.

 

From you link:

It is sort of Ironic that Israel acquired Gaza in the 6 Day War that Israel justified starting on the basis that Egypt was blockading one of Israel's ports.

 

Andrew Sulliven on the real time with Bill Maher made a astute statement if it were any other state that killed our citizens would we be treated it as if it were no big deal? No of course not we would be demanding heads roll and those who killed them to be punished.

 

A May 28th, 2010 exclusive interview between Charlie Rose and the official Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal:

http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/11032

Very interesting.

 

Also news update on the rachel corrie ship:

Israeli forces have boarded the Irish-owned aid ship, the MV Rachel Corrie, which was bound for Gaza.


Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/breaki...rd-mv-rachel-corrie-460528.html#ixzz0pyJ77Tsd

Israeli forces have seized an Irish-owned ship bound for Gaza, boarding the Rachel Corrie close to the Gaza shore.

"The ship has been boarded and there was full compliance from the crew and passengers on board," a spokeswoman for the Israeli Defence Force (IDF) said.

The IDF says no helicopters were used and there were no reports of violence.

It says the boat will be brought to Ashdod Port where goods will be inspected and transferred to Gaza via land crossings.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/06/05/2919241.htm?section=justin

Just as I thought. So now what? I mean they should have just taken the goods to Ashdod as that's where the Israeli's said it would go and that they would transport the goods by land to Gaza. In the meantime not one flotilla has broken the blockade.

 

I don’t know about the “iron dome” program, but if it can 100% prevent Gaza rocket from killing even one or two Israelis, as the suggestion I make in post 115 (old 2006 post) can, then I am strong backer of it. As, even with 1975 technology, it is possible to totally stop these crude rockets and Israel has chosen not to do so I can only conclude, without blaming them, that they need a few Israeli deaths each year to justify the policy they have chosen instead. This is not blaming. This is analysis of the facts including the fact that Israeli has used this same technology for three decades to defend its ships against threats which are 1000 times harder to stop. If you can give some other reason why Israel does not 100% defend Israelis from the Gaza rockets, please do so.

No, not vengeance. I have many times posted fact that 15 of the 9/11 terrorist were Saudi Arabians, but GWB (and his father) have been supported financially for three decades in the political campaigns by the Saudi Royal family so the 9/11 attack was used by GWB as an excuse (but many people of US did want “revenge.”) to attack Iraq. The Government’s motive for that attack was however not revenge, it was the fact Iraq’s very low cost production of oil was benefiting only the France’s Total oil company and the Russian oil field contractors instead of Cheney’s Halliburton. Recall the anti-French fervor that was whipped up & the fact that France highly opposed the invasion of Iraq. Also note that France was not even allowed to bid on post war reconstruction contracts. This caused more than a year delay in restoring telephone service in Baghdad as all the telephone central exchanges were made with French components, which were incompatible with US made ones. SUMMARY: not revenge, GREED.

My step 1 is NOT a general apoligy. It is very specific / limited suggestion that Israel pay compensation for the Palestinian home they confiscated to house the influx of European Jews. I think doing this is not only just, but also a useful first step to demonstrate, not only say, that Israel wants peace and justice for the Palestinians. No one needs to apologize for their existence.

“hostile vessels” deliver water purification plant, food , medicine, and come without bearing arms? Get real. Your pro Israel bias is clouding your logic. I am not claiming the flotilla did not have the political objective of ending the blockade, but political objectives sought by delivering aid seem OK to me, not “hostile.”

Peaceful civil disobedience for political change is ok. That is how I helped open restaurants to blacks in Baltimore years ago. That is how Gandhi drove the British from India. It really is the only effect policy to use against a much strong force. I hope the aid ships keep coming, but don’t try to defend themselves with force against well armed commandos.

There is also considerable confusion /lack of logic/ in your mind in that you are claiming (I think) that the “iron dome” can fully protect Israeli yet supporting the blockade as it is now. If your “enemy” can do you no harm, why do you need to blockade peaceful items from entering it? For example, if my suggestion were adopted, then fishing equipment, cloth, etc. could be allowed in, but inspection for attack weapons (better rockets, etc.) imported either across the Gaza border with Egypt or by sea would still be required for a couple of generations (or longer if normal peace between neighboring countries did not exist between the nations of Israel and Palestine).

Totally false. I specifically said “both sides” but I replied to this repeated false charge last night (post 1082). I will even agree that the Palestinian hatred of Israel is more intense, on average, than the other way round. For example, in Israel there are many who think that Israel’s policy is immoral, etc. but very few in Palestine who think firing the Gaza rocket is immoral. Considering the relative amount of suffering each has experienced with the current conflict this is understandable. This intense hate causes quite a few Palestinians to sneak into Israel when they can with an explosive vest, (The border mine field back up by the killer trained dog strip of my suggestion is designed to stop 100% of these terrorist infiltrators.) but extremely few Jews, outside of the army, are doing anything comparable at great personnel risk just to hurt Palestinians. (I said “extremely few” as, if memory serves me correctly, several years ago an orthodox Jews did kill several in the west bank.)

If Israel had impenetrable boarders, then it would not be necessary or desirable to make life miserable for the Palestinians by blocking importation of fishing rods, paper and pencils for school kids, etc. As I have already stated this is a stupid policy as it only recruits martyrs. (When life is sufficiently miserable, as water pumps stop and raw sewerage spills into the street with electric power cut off and your child died for lack of medical services, etc. there is little reason not to strap on a suicide vest.) Again, I am not blaming, only stating facts and trying to show why a change in Israeli policy is needed, FOR ISRAEL’S LONG TERM SECURITY. (The Russian developed infectious anthrax and / or Ebola dust balloons must not come, but they will if no change is made.)

Not allowed fishing rods or cloth. Etc. has a lot to do with the answer.

Your life experience and future prospect for your children is very different from that of a Palestinian mother’s. Many think there is no future for their child so let him / her go out and play. That is what I want to change. I.e. let plastic toys be imported, let them go fishing in the Med, Let them have paper and pencils, etc. When you have nothing to live for, and know /believe it is because of Israeli their throwing stones at tanks is understandable. But, note in earlier post I did support Geoff’s idea that the slingshots and marbles ARE weapons – dangerous to Israeli soldiers in the hands of these kids now only throwing rocks. (Years ago I was quite good with a slingshot – at close range I would have had a 50/50 chance of hitting a soldier’s eye. The skull bone behind the eye is very thin. There is a good chance a high velocity marble can enter the brain etc.)

Not true and a totally without support statement.

that is true; however, if the US had done to the Canadians what 60 years of Israeli occupation has done to the Palestinians, I don’t think I would visit Niagara Falls, etc.

Yes, it does. Did you read it? That is why plan includes a boarder mine field, backed up near cites by strip with killer trained attack dogs and deep spikes in the ground containing acoustic sensors to stop tunneling efforts (they also report the location of any mine exploding).

I am sorry that you did not understand it and read into it that I was only blaming Israel. It is true that only Israel is now able (has the resources and power) to make a change for the better. I.e. stop the current, counter-productive, failed, High Kill Ratio policy that only strengthens “terrible for Palestine” leadership like Hamas. If you have any understanding of human nature*, you must know this. Palestinians must have a reason to live, not a reason to die.

----------------------
*If lacking that, but you had a little knowledge of history, you would know how populations react to abuse and terror. – For example, the unguided buzz bomb terror weapon the Germans hope would make England give up had only the opposite effect. Etc. I am reminded of old joke:
“The beatings will continue until you learn to love us.”

 

True my suggestions were only for Israel: It is understandable that my suggestion focuses on changes to be made by Israel in that ONLY Israel has the resources and power to do anything. - To make change the situation. If you think Palestinians could change, throw out Hamas, etc. please again read the end of my last post which speaks about "human nature" and the footnote which recalls the historic reactions of oppressed and terrified populations. I.e. one must be realistic about human reactions.

As many will not read all of my long post, 1110, I will repeat the joke at the end as it illustrates this point about how humans react to abuse:

"The beatings will continue until you learn to love us."

 

@Billy T

Well I totally agree with you on the war in Iraq and Afghanistan and I understand that you are not supporting one group over the other since we know they are just as bad but not as equally strong.

You can find information on the Iron Dome here:

http://en.trend.az/regions/world/usa/1687252.html

Billy T: My step 1 is NOT a general apoligy. It is very specific / limited suggestion that Israel pay compensation for the Palestinian home they confiscated to house the influx of European Jews. I think doing this is not only just, but also a useful first step to demonstrate, not only say, that Israel wants peace and justice for the Palestinians. No one needs to apologize for their existence.

Well the last sentence I agree with completely. Financial compensation could work if a group, like Hamas for example, claimed that it would renounce violence and recognize the state of Israel . I do not believe that Hamas has shown enough leadership skills and good faith in order to justify funding THEM! Which is what it seems to come down to. I mean Hamas has just refused the cargo of aid because the Israeli's had taken out items like cement. I am on the one hand supposed to see the people of Gaza as 'hungry' with no aid coming in, to the point that it required international efforts, only to find out that they care nothing for their people *cough* aid. Hamas is unable to do what is best for their people because the are ill equipped politically to actually govern there own people. I think the only thing they are good for is creating more hurl-your-people-further-towards-death type of government. They are like Indian war's in American history and they are desperately making a 'wounded knee' type of stand. A stand that can only bring hardship for their people, all because they cannot renounce two basic features that could bring them closer to legitimate political power and give no reason for the blockade. Hamas is not the answer. In that sense I understand the Israeli blokade.

If you believe the Palestinian hatred is more intense then why do you advocate easing a blockade against Hamas? It is what they would do if they even had a chance that is the question. I mean they say they want to dialogue but can they compromise? From what I know of Hamas they leave very little to negotiate with because all they have are demands where there is nothing to negotiate with. That's the truth! Since Israel is not going to give in to a group that cannot even outwardly say they recognize Israel and are willing to renounce violence in exchange for something DOABLE ! Then maybe there would be room. People are not being honest about all this. Right now the most critical factor in the palestinian situation is not Israel but how they deal with each other. All of their little fractious groups vying for power, all the mechanisms that they use to police their own people. Their lack of an intelligentsia well placed enough to actually breath a viable movement into the community. They have no viable leadership at the moment that can provide their people with anything but an unstable state. And that's the truth. I would no more give money or legitimacy to Hamas than I would give monkeys a key role in a shakespeare production.

 

"Their lack of an intelligentsia well placed enough to actually breath a viable movement into the community. They have no viable leadership at the moment that can provide their people with anything but an unstable state. And that's the truth."

Hey, stop picking on Britain

 

No honey I'm speaking of Hamas as some quasi political organization.

 

electric, that can be an option.

The fact is Israel has done nothing wrong.

Sure they have killed civilians, but tell me, when has there ever been a serious war where not one civilian so much as got a bruise because of it?

Human rights violations? It's war, no s*it theres going to be some violations.

 

Israel may or may not let their cargo get to Gaza. Just because Israel tells the media their cargo will get to Gaza does not mean that Israel will let their cargo get to Gaza.

I heard the head of the UN's Gaza aid program on the radio. He says their supplies for Gaza always get held up and have to sit and wait in Israeli warehouses that the UN has to pay for. Then the UN has to negotiate for each item whether or not it will be allowed. Israeli bureaucrats will tell them we will get back to you on that and they will have another meeting a month later on whether the item is to be allowed. Israel will not tell the UN in advance what will be allowed. What will be allowed will be different from one day to the next. No explanations will be given as to why or why not something will be allowed into Gaza.

Now while the media is watching Israel might deliver the flotilla's cargo. The media is not going to watch ship after ship being peacefully diverted to Israeli ports. The media will decide the story is boring. Then the flotilla's will have no better luck than the UN at getting supplies to Gaza. And Egypt won't open it's border crossing to Gaza out of fear of an Egyptian uprising if the flotillas don't make news.

Gaza needs water purification equipment badly. People in Gaza are paying large portions of their disposable income for bottled water because the water that comes out of the tap is unsafe. Some people are too poor and must drink the unsafe water. Clean bottled water would be cheaper if more people could produce it but Israel (and I guess Egypt as well) won't let water purification equipment into Gaza.

 

:roflmao:

So what will we do with it? It costs money to keep it, not to mention it will just prove ass holes like you are right. A pleasure I will be more then happy to take from you.

 

That's bull billyt.

It is quite obvious which side you are on.

 

Actually, there's all kinds of deaths and massacres that go on with precious little attention. 500,000 murders (at least) in Rwanda were nearly glossed over, in comparison. And how about Armenia? Who's even heard of the Bangladesh Massacres? Anyone on the forum?

The more that I think about it, the more untrue that assertion becomes. Sri Lanka? Somalia? Sudan? South Africa? China? It's simply not so.

 

Israel had done most things wrong in fighting the PR war, and it long term survival is in serious question if it loses that war. It present actions in the west bank and gaza do not bod well for its long term survival, the best option for israel is to force the palestinians into a treat by making one de-facto.

By pretending gaza is dead to you and removing the blockade, the control of Gaza borders not facing Israel, the constant supply of electricity and food, they will force hamas to either become a viable government that will have to seek peace for its political survival or hamas will simply die off and be replaced by a viable peaceful government. Israel will become blameless for gaza problems as Israel will show they have nothing to do with gaza aside for the artillery counter strikes for the rockets launched by gaza, and the gazaians will quickly learn to stop launching rockets as their economy develops and suddenly they find their property and livelihoods more important then their hate for Jews. At present they live in squealer with nothing better to do but hate Israel and Jews and the Israeli occupation and restriction on their lives is what helps keep them in the pitiful hate cycle. When Israel invaded gaza a few years ago it actually heightened gazain support for hamas, hamas needs gazains to suffer Israeli hands, without that support for hamas will dry up fast.

The West bank is a harder problem to solve, ideally it would be best if Jordon assimilated the West Bank Palestinians, And Israel were to purchase the west bank. Or second best Jordon just took control of west bank minus the settlements, but the settlements and water wells have made it impossible to separate the Israelis from the west bank. Maybe if the West bank could become a joint government controlled region by jordon and israel, then Israel could slowly take over it by purchasing power, or vice versa if Jordon was somehow to get richer then Israel it could buy it all back, all is fair in capitalist global-peace. But that not going to happen. Any ideas how to solve the west bank problem?