Zionism - What exactly is it?

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Red Devil, Dec 7, 2010.

  1. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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  3. arfa brane call me arf Valued Senior Member

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    That's odd. So the Jewish homeland was contained entirely in the city of Jerusalem?
    I thought it was a bit bigger than one city?

    Another odd thing: if the Jews were evicted from the Levant, how hard was it for them to attend Tisha B'Av in Jerusalem? How far did they need to travel, and how many managed to attend, given the distances that must have been involved?
     
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  5. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    The exile is a myth. Magnes Zionist does a good job of paraphrasing the scholarship on the subject

    original paper is available here

    citation:Yuval, Israel Jacob.
    The Myth of the Jewish Exile from the Land of Israel: A Demonstration of Irenic Scholarship
    Common Knowledge - Volume 12, Issue 1, Winter 2006, pp. 16-33

    And this is even before we figure out that much, if not all, of the narrative which he refers to does not exist outside the bible or the imagination of Josephus
     
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  7. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    Romans didn't kick every Jew out, they couldn't do that. However, Jerusalem was the center of Jewish society, the countryside was sparsely populated. They just made it so difficult for Jews, the cultural center moved to Babylon.
     
  8. arfa brane call me arf Valued Senior Member

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    Ah. So the story of Jews being evicted wholesale from Judea is historically inaccurate.

    That makes more sense; if it took 12 legions to put down a revolt, surely it would have required hundreds of legions, and great expense, to evict them from Judea alone. I don't think the Empire would have considered such an exercise worthwhile, but after all, the Jews always did get 'special consideration'.
     
  9. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    What story? No one said that. The diaspora, as it's called, was not a singular event, it was the culmination and result of many incidents of war and oppression. It's well known that Israel was never completely Jew free during or after Roman occupation. History, as usual, is more complex than popular narrative.
     
  10. arfa brane call me arf Valued Senior Member

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    What story? This story:
    Much lke the story I've heard told, about the eviction of Jews from their historical homeland, which I've known for some time is a highly improbable story. The effort required and the cost, even by a superpower of the day, namely Rome, would have been prohibitive.
     
  11. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    But are we speaking of the Israelites, the Judeans or the Jews? And if the change from paganism to polytheism to monotheism makes no difference to the tribe, why omit conversion to religions after that?

    And if monotheism became fully formed after the Babylonian exile, how do we even know we are referring to the same people and not some immigrant tribe?
     
  12. Red Devil Born Again Athiest Registered Senior Member

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    Jews were never thrown out of Palestine - the migrated all over the world, even in New Terstament times they came be found as far away as France, living in groups in one area -keeping themselves isolated. It is known that Joseph of Arimethea visited Jews in France (Gaul) before crossing the channel to GB. It was the jews in the USA that pestered the government to provide them with a homeland, and they usurped arabs land for the purpose. The US goverment is so scared of the Jewish Lobby that they always do what the jews want, they can sway votes - big style.
     
  13. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    They were thrown out, just not as neatly as you would be evicted from your apartment. The net effect on Roman oppression was an exodus from Israel.
     
  14. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    Jews. They were unified enough to challenge the Romans in battle, and the Romans weren't exactly amateurs at this.
     
  15. Red Devil Born Again Athiest Registered Senior Member

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    So the roman presence forced them out, or did they go by choice? The latter sounds the most obvious, for whatever reason, nobody forced them out.
     
  16. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    It's a little of both, when people make life difficult for you, you tend to move. It's like the exodus of educated citizens from Iraq and Afghanistan.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2010
  17. Red Devil Born Again Athiest Registered Senior Member

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    you may be right ...........
     
  18. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Just like it had earlier moved from elsewhere to Canaan. The history of the human race is the history of migration. But in the absence of any archaeological record to back up their assertions, it seems that the history of the Jews is one of chronic self deception. Do the Jews who moved due to the Roman oppression exist anywhere outside the imagination of Josephus? Is there any other record of this exodus?
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2010
  19. rcscwc Registered Senior Member

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    Ha. Why did the Jews come to India? Maybe, the earliest arrivals were as traders in 200-300 BCE. They lived PEACEFULLY.

    They came about 100 CE. Was it Roman persecution? Please tell me. They lived PEACEFULLY.

    Next arrivals were about 300-400 CE. Was it due to xian persecution? Please tell me. They lived PEACEFULLY.

    Another wave came in 700-800. Was it due to muslim persecution? Please tell me.

    Another wave, known as Bagdadi Jews arrived 1400-1600 CE. Was it muslim persecution? Please tell me. They lived PEACEFULLY.

    PS: One of the most beautiful synagogue happens to be in Cochin. They have a copper plaque whereby the Hindu king gave them land for this temple. [I can prove it, so please don't try to contest it].

    Helen. You remember her? Raised Cabaret to an art form? She NEVER showed her skin, yet produced sensual dances. Her comments on Censor Board: They have misplaced the scissors.


    A POSER:

    When did Jews complain of persecution at the hands of Hindus?
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2010
  20. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Exactly - you prove my point. So why did 90% of them leave India in the decade after 1947 when they suffered no oppression for almost 2000 years?

    Isn't 2000 years long enough to "feel" Indian?
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2010
  21. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Not at all. How many Legions were required to conquer Britain? You give the Romans too little credit.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Britain
     
  22. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    You also give "superpowers of the day" too little credit. Think 1290, England. How many legions did old Longshanks have?
     
  23. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Or we could examine the historical record separately from the Bible. How many of the polytheistic Judeans remained in Judea after the "Bar Kokhba revolt"?

    Most of them and they were rewarded with the land and property of those who left
     

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