Your War on Terror

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Tiassa, Jan 13, 2004.

  1. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    Asleep at the wheel? Park Police fumble dirty-bomb drill

    The Washington Post reports that U.S. Park Police at the Washington Monument "never noticed" a suspicious bag planted by the Office of the Inspector General on September 11, 2003. Richard Leiby writes:
    In a prior thread with this title, I noted the paranoia of our holiday Orange Alert in what turned out to be one of the more humorous terrorist scares of the season. But as things seem to be, I'm left to wonder if any of it's actually worth anything.

    But there you have it, folks. Your War on Terror.

    Coming Soon: More adventures and miscues from the New American Century.

    Source Article

    • Leiby, Richard. "The Reliable Source." The Washington Post, January 13, 2004; page C01. See http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A11312-2004Jan12.html

    See Also

    • SciForums.com: "High for the Holidays: Your War on Terror"
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2004
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  3. CounslerCoffee Registered Senior Member

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    I'll say it again, even though I've said it many times before:

    The color code system does nothing, and will never do anything. All these alerts are useless. Unless you’re Fox News, at which point you can use them to fill up time between the commercials and Studio B with Shepard Smith.

    Note: I'd rather have Chief Knock-a-Homer patroling my streets.

    *EDIT* These new text size parameters are screwing with me.
     
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  5. hypewaders Save Changes Registered Senior Member

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    Our monumental insecurity is one manifestation of intense psychological and political denial that is rife in the USA. Persistent realities that do not conform to precious but false popular assumptions are systematically obscured in a potentially disastrous spiral of collective denial.

    Example: Angry individuals cannot be physically precluded from wreaking havoc in an open society. Therefore in America's present quest to reinforce disproven presumptions of physical invulnerability, every intitiative not directly replacing open society with a fortress police state is further self-deception.

    Example: Americans are radically experimenting with the freedom vs. security balance with lasting implications to the fundamental character of our society. Public debate on the societal implications of present "security" measures being taken are collectively uncomfortable and suppressed.

    Example: Motivations, underlying the violence so obliquely being reacted to, betray popular American presumptions about the surrounding world. Uncomfortable. Suppressed.

    Example: Denial, especially when revealed as motivation behind failed policies, is uncomfortable. Suppressed. Denied.

    America's monumental insecurity is much deeper and precarious than the base of the Washington monument.
     
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  7. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    Irony:
    So much for the shift to the right, Dennis?

    Bang ... what ... three weeks gone by, and already the punchline is blown away? What happened to the more timeless jokes?

    Miller aside, though, a billion dollars a week for Code Orange? Maybe we should have run the test during a Code Orange. Maybe there would have been two Park Police sleeping in their cars . . . .
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2004
  8. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    Your War on Terror: German judge laments US complication of terror trial

    A German judge, in acquitting terror suspect Abdelghani Mzoudi ... well,
    The issue may have serious international political ramifications. Judge Klaus Ruehle may have phrased the acquittal specifically to send a message across the Pond. Mzoudi is only the second person tried on charges directly connected to the 9/11 attacks against the United States, and the US government failed to provide information for either the prosecution or the defense.

    Whether that information would have helped convict Mzoudi is nonetheless a question mark. At least one German intelligence official noted that such information as was requested would not necessarily be of any use, as the individuals in question obfuscate well enough to render the information unreliable. On top of that, a German intelligence document citing unknown sources suggests that Mzoudi was unaware of the hijackers' plans. This document apparently figured greatly in his acquittal, leaving the judge with few options:
    Ruehle seems somewhat frustrated; yes, the verdict will upset some, but he had nothing to convict the man with.
    Comment:

    I'm not sure quite how to read this. Certes, I acknowledge security concerns, but if someone has a chance to convict and lock up a guilty party to the 9/11 attacks (a mighty presumption for me, an American, to make, but work with me here), shouldn't the United States help make sure that conviction happens?

    It's sarcastic enough to ask why we can't throw the Germans a bone in order to help our own situation in the War on Terror while we're happy to wrongly incarcerate how many people? (And here we can look away from the War on Terror and watch the slow parade of convicts acquitted by DNA evidence in rape and murder trials and also think about the politics of the Drug War if we don't want to think about the War on Terror.)

    But the only specific informational issue raised in Burgess' article was a defense request for information from the interrogations of Ramzi bin al Shibh.

    It may be that Mzoudi is, in fact, innocent, and the US simply didn't wish to acknowledge that it had nothing on him, but while I think the political ramifications of Ruehle's words might become spectacular, the idea that the US had nothing on Mzoudi to help convict him also includes the idea that a German judge really is that impetuous, so it's a coin flip that, thankfully, doesn't involve freedom fries.

    But as the American case against Zacarias Moussaoui falls apart in Virginia, we're actually losing this aspect of the War on Terror. The American people have been promised justice, and at present the 9/11 count sits as follows:

    Moussaoui - accused, conviction doubt moderate to strong. (US)
    Mzoudi - accused, acquitted. (Germany)
    Motassadeq - accused, convicted, appealing; chance of winning appeal is moderate to strong; decision expected March 4, 2004. (Germany)

    Which means that the official score is:

    - Al Qaeda: 2,749
    - World: 1 (under review)

    But in a state of perpetual warfare, we must remember that it's still early in the game. And it could change to a straight shutout by this time next month.

    Mr. Bush? I hear you're a baseball fan. Heck, you even owned a team. I'm sure you're aware of the jokes that go on when the Mariners, late in the season, need a win, but can't score a run against the bottom of the league? I hear you're also a smart man, which means you can figure it out from there. Every day counts, Mr. President, and if there's anything you should have learned from your time in baseball, it's that manager, coaches, and players alike must come out and play to win every day. Your opponents are working the outside corner very well, and much like the Mariners in September can demonstrate, you have to swing the bat now and then in order to get a hit. The United States cannot afford to wait for a base on balls, else it might wind up in another hit batsman. And we didn't convert the baserunner last time, so ... think, Skipper. There's a steady thunder in the house of the holy and the hometown whites are aglow. Get us a hit, Mr. President. Just get on base and start the wheels turning. We actually need to get a man in scoring position before we can bring him home. Lastly, remember that the Mariners had Griffey, Martinez, Rodriguez, Buhner ... remember when they played longball? We had Randy Johnson, for heaven's sake. We should have gone all the way. But it was without Griffey, without Buhner, without Johnson or the New Texas Gigolo that the Mariners tied the league record for wins in a season. They didn't play longball. They played smartball. Stop swinging for the fences; you ain't da Boone. We need contact. We need men on base. We need to give ourselves the opportunity to bring a few runs around, and not sit waiting for a curveball to hang like a Haymarket martyr.

    We'll try the pitching metaphors later in the season.

    Remember your drunken frat days? "Scooore-booooard! Scooore-booooard! Scooore-booooard!"

    No, George, the numbers ain't great. Fix them, please. I would recommend that you take notes from Paul Abbot, but you've got Karl Rove to tell you when to duck.

    Notes:

    • Burgess, John. "Moroccan Man Acquitted of Aiding 9/11 Hijackers." Washington Post.com, February 5, 2004. See http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14898-2004Feb5.html
    • Report, Correspondent. "9/11 death toll drops by three." News.com.au, January 23, 2004. See http://news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,8478555%5E401,00.html
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2004
  9. 15ofthe19 35 year old virgin Registered Senior Member

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    Sweet metaphor T. Hell, a bunt would be a start at this point.

    This story sounds eerily familiar to other episodes where the intelligence community is so constipated it simply can't move when it's obvious that old stalwart's of the business are hindering the process. The goal is to get these people locked up, forever. But I can just imagine some mid-level director stubbornly refusing to turn over a file because then, oh shit, the Germans might know a source. This same bs is pervasive in any level of law enforcement where making the collar, and taking credit for the conviction, supersede the goal of the process. My cynicism grows....

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  10. kmguru Staff Member

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    Park Police fumble dirty-bomb drill

    There is plenty of garbage out in the open on a given day in any major city streets. So police just ignore them - from the mouth of a Boston Police
     
  11. dsdsds Valued Senior Member

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    1,677
    I agree with Hypewaders .. I think... (it's getting harder and harder to understand you Hype. You should tone it down a notch for us more intellectually challenged majority – and more importantly, your dumb compatriot voter.)
    This is exactly what Bush & Co. wants. They are more than willing to expose any “security” gaps in systems they, themselves put into place - All to avert attention from the sources and causes of the terror. The aim for this admin is bigger defense through bigger offence and absolute control over not only the ROW but its own people’s freedom.
     
  12. hypewaders Save Changes Registered Senior Member

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    Sorry, ds- sometimes I can't understand my own stuff looking back either. Rather than any great intellectuality, it's more likely clumsiness obscuring whatever I may have tried to convey.

    T's 2nd note recalled the catalyst for the US' "War on Terror", which still has never been quantified:

    We now count 2749 9-11 victims, of which it is apparently unpublished how many were US citizens. Here is one Victim List I found. Subtracting the toll of non-Americans, it would seem that somewhere around 2550 Americans were actually murdered by hijackers that day.

    If Americans are to someday put the 9-11 tragedy into perspective, it would seem fitting that the number of American victims would be popularly known. As I recall 2001 in commonly-known round numbers regarding tragic American deaths, I believe that along with roughly 2,500 victims of terrorism, 40,000 Americans were killed in traffic, 30,000 by suicide, and 20,000 in cold blood by other Americans.

    As a result of 9-11, I suspect that something far upwards of 25,000 foreign civilians have lost their lives to American retaliation. Clearer perspectives on 9-11 and the "War on Terror" it spawned will be important to the future of the US and of the world.
     
  13. Proud_Muslim Shield of Islam Registered Senior Member

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    As a Muslim and an Arab from the Middle East, let me give this advice to the Americans:

    No one ever throughout history won any war against 'terrorism', the U.K. has been fighting the IRA for 30 years with no results, the same in Seri Lanka, the same in Philipenes, the same in Kashmire....etc

    The only way to defeat terrorism is by doing the following:

    1- Comprehensice review of America's foriegn policy: your support for Israel has to stop because the terrorist state of Israel is at the heart of the Muslim hatred and RAGE against the Americans.

    2- You have to stop nourishing and supporting our dictators and tyrannts ( until now and even after 9/11, the american government is still supporting the oppressive Saudi regime, the dictators in the gulf region and the dictator in Egypt and now, it seems Colonel Ghadafi will become your friend again !! )

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    3- The American government need to be seen as FAIR and JUST regarding Muslim causes all over the world ( we dont hear America complaining about the BARBARIC Russian treatments of the chechyen muslims, the same regarding the Kashmiris in India, the same regarding the treatment of Muslims in the Philipenes ).

    4- Defeating those fanatic muslims can ONLY be achieved by MUSLIMS, the MODERATE MUSLIMS, who are not given any chance or space to speak out against those fanatics in the US media and indeed throughtout the world.

    5- America has to drop more love instead of BOMBS on the heads of the muslims throughout the world....BUILDING instead of BOMBING.

    6- America has to tackle its own christian fanatics back home who incite so much hate and bigotry against Muslims.

    Imagine the reaction in the muslim world when they will see the next American president ( hopefully not this current moron ) visiting the refugee camps in GAZA and the WEST BANK and talking to poor palestineans about their pain and suffering, I am sure this would give America A HUGE SYMPATHY THROUGHOUT THE MUSLIM WORLD, IT WILL CAUSE AN EARTHQUAKE WHICH WILL SHAKE THE FANATICS' BASES AND DESTROY IT.
     
  14. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    This is an incredibly difficult challenge as I see it. My own investigation of Islam is hampered by poor and limited translation into the English language.

    The appearance in the West is that these voices are not there; indeed, the Western media plays a role in this, but at the same time I use mostly Western sources to point me toward the information I need to find about Islam. Stetkevych, Armstrong, even Russell--certes, they are respected, but they are all Americans. Idries Shah? Sure, he's Afghani, but he's also Sufi, so I'm not exactly tapping the main vein. (Sure, I like Mansur al-Hallaj, but is the Prophetic Lamp really that fundamental to understanding Islam?)

    Personally, I think the US should be raising hell every time a progressive news editor is silenced by a government in Egypt or Iran just as surely as it should be raising hell about Mugabe's suppression of the press in Zimbabwe. Our tendency in the West is to not notice until something's on fire, and then take offense at the severity of the situation.

    Regardless of the reasons, the information is not getting to the West. Though Sciforums be but a tiny corner of a vast Universe, bring them to us, please. You would know better than most around here what speaks properly of the Islamic cause. Slough off the toadie flamers and bring us the reality; the audience is listening. We're just never quite sure what it is we're hearing.

    Lastly, remember that this is the West you're dealing with. Deal sympathetically, compassionately. Obviously, folks in the West don't understand why Muslims are upset. You can bring the golden and perfect truth, but if it's brought on a wave of imperfect passion, Westerners tend to shun the appearance of anger. (Just ask Howard Dean.)
     
  15. Proud_Muslim Shield of Islam Registered Senior Member

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    I agree and this is not only your fault or the west fault, it is our fault as well, we have millions of Muslims who speak prefect English, they should do more to help you understand us much clearer.

    Karen Armstrong is great writer, she is very fair but yes as you said, it is not enough, you need to know from the sources.

    Fortunately, more and more English speaking Islamic websites are appearing, I think we began to realize the clamity of the situation, the ignorance and the misconception about Islam is unbearable.

    this site is little candle in this dark universe:

    http://www.islamonline.net

    And of course AL JAZEERA in English is another window:

    http://english.aljazeera.net

    You are right, America only get involved when things are badly damaged, I rememebr here the case of my fellow Syrian MAHER ARAR, he is Syrian but with Canadian Passport, he has been living in Canada for more than 12 years, he was stopped in one of the American airports in his way to Canada and SENT BACK to Syria instead of Canada although the American authorities know very well that our regime is very oppressive and use brutal torture against prisoners, he was tortured for 6 month in notorious Syrian prison, his wife back in Canada went mad and lauched a huge camapain against the American and the Canadian government, after huge pressure and a threat to cut the Canadian diplomatic relations with Syria, the regime there sent him back to Canada after unbearable ordeal..The American government which is the one who handed him over DID NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING !!!...I just wonder: IS AMERICA REALLY ABOUT HUMAN RIGHTS and FREEDOM ???????? how on earth they handed him over to a regime they know very well use torture systematiclly ????

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    I am doing my best despite a barrage of hate and bigotry from some members here in sciforums.

    You know sometimes, all this hatred and bigotry against Islam put me off from even bothering to post, but then, I say to myself, instead of cursing the darkness, try to lit even a small candle.

    Point taken and observed, but the problem is we muslims are very very upset and angry, it is difficult to ask angry person to be compassionate, because we see in America an oppressive incompassionate brutal state that kills Muslims and support their enemies ( Israel ).

    But again, how we are going to talk if we will shout abuse at each other ?

    Your advice is highly appreciated and as camels are something very dear and a symbol of our endurance and patience throughout the centuries, we have very great proverb in our arabic culture which goes:

    HE WHO GIVES ME AN ADVICE, I WILL GIVE HIM A CAMEL.

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  16. hypewaders Save Changes Registered Senior Member

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    I prefer Marlboro Lights, shukran.
     
  17. Proud_Muslim Shield of Islam Registered Senior Member

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    Smoking endanger your life, quit it and get a camel...I promise.

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  18. Pakman Registered Senior Member

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    Touche Proud Muslim. Touche. That's the path America should follow if they want to end all this hatred.
     
  19. Eng Grez Registered Senior Member

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    1 - Israel is not a terrorist state and no.

    2 - No. Moderates would be eradicated by extremists.

    3 - No. Once again, not caving in to extremists equals oppression and "unfairness" in your eyes.

    4 - No. They speak out daily in the West. It is in their own countries that they are oppressed by extremists.

    5 - No. We give plenty of money to governments for "building."

    6 - No. First Amendment, and all that. We're not tearing up the Constitution so Abdel Raziz al-Schmoe in Cairo feels that the Christians aren't coming to make him an infidel.

    What a load of Islamist BS. All six points, inherently tilted toward appeasement. Appeasement showed its worth at Munich. Appeasement showed its worth in New York.

    Extremist Muslims started this fight, and we're sure as hell going to end it. The United States has been more successful at fighting terrorism than any other country in history. In the space of three years, we did more than in the past 30 at fighting terrorism.

    The differences between the IRA, Sri Lanka and Islamic terrorism is that the IRA was fighting for a negotiable goal. The Sri Lankan terrorists - whose conflict over the years took 60,000 lives, far more than those in Chechnya or Israel - was fighting for a negotiable goal.

    The IRA's agenda was not destruction of an entire society. The Sri Lankan terrorists' goal was not the destruction of an entire society.

    The goal of Islamic terrorists is that of the destruction of not just one society. The goal of Islamic terrorists is the destruction of any and all societies save the one they deem acceptable. Negotiations are pointless.

    The unrivaled, unparalleled power of the United States presents a situation unlike any before seen in history. The power of the United States literally crisscrosses the globe. We do not need to send the Marines into Cairo. The Egyptian government will round up the terrorist we want for us. We do not need to send troops to Kashmir or the Phillipines. India and the Phillipines are more than capable of handling their situations on their own, and we give them advice, intelligence, organization, coordination and money.

    There has never been such a coalition of nations arrayed against terrorism. Even countries where they draw their support from have governments that are actively opposed to them. Anti-terrorist cooperation has rolled along unfettered, even with the infighting about Iraq amongst the nations of the West.

    You portray Islamic terrorists as some kind of unstoppable juggernaut, Proud_Muslim. The unstoppable juggernaut is on the other side. You're not just dealing with the Zionist Entity and the Great Satan; you're dealing with Britain and France and Germany and Egypt and Jordan and Turkey and Japan and South Korea and India and Australia and the Phillipines and South Africa and Italy and Russia and Poland and quite literally the entire world.

    The interconnected world works against the terrorist. The level of coordination and cooperation among different nations, which exceeds that of any other point in history, works against the terrorist.

    The key is money. To make more money, countries grow closer together. Terrorists survive on the inefficiency and divided nature of their opponents. If it was the 1920s, I'm sure you'd be quite right. Nations were truly separate entities unto themselves. It is not the 1920s. The actual differences between the United States and Canada and France and Germany and Britain and Italy and Japan and Australia are near-nonexistent. That works against the terrorist.

    Appeasement. Right.
     
  20. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    One of my favorite, most diversely applicable philosophic gems collected through time:
    Just something that struck me about camels.

    In my life, and even in my time at Sciforums (it's there about three years ago or so) I focused largely on a frustration that was part of a traditional process in American sociopolitical life and held Christians responsible as the latest main offender. The process is simple; if you are of an "honest" and "liberal" politic, you find yourself pressed to the point that you must either surrender or violate your principles. What happens is that one side of the equation can, theoretically, continually back up in compassionate allowance of the errors of the other. Yet the other continually advances without adjusting their perception of the situation.

    I share a lot of values with the Judeo-Christian experience in America. What seems deviant about me in comparison with my "average American" neighbors stems from conflicts originating within the confines and conditions of that Judeo-Christian experience. For years, I found communication with "the other side" impossible, as I was always willing to make allowances in perception for differences in fundamental beliefs, but found no such compassion among those who disagreed.

    While Christianity and Christians are not solely responsible for this process in America, the process is largely responsible for the continual resetting of lower and lower standards for American education, politics, and conduct. In the Christian context, it is how we arrive at an internecene American conflict in which treating everybody fairly is somehow discriminatory against Christians. (We see this conflict of justice being unjust in the religions of American "Capitalism" and American "Democracy" every day, as well.)

    I'm very happy for what progress has occurred in Northern Ireland over the last decade or so. It sure beats the 1980s, when I first became aware of "terrorists" and "guerillas," among other things. But in my heart's principles I'm quietly pissed at the fact that the British will never apologize to Ireland for centuries of unnecessary crap. And, admittedly, some of that crap is necessary to the "learning curve" of social relations, but at some point it just got ridiculous.

    The aggressors keep coming, the victims and the "enlightened compassionate" keep falling back in response to abstract principles which the aggressors are happy to abuse like altar boys.

    Flip a coin in Israel. The establishment of an Israeli state makes a tremendous amount of sense according to an old politic that finally started crumbling in 1989 or 1990 for me, in Catholic school. But within that politic is a cheap and simplistic rendering of the situation. A child might draw mommy and daddy fighting, but one cannot necessarily extract the real issues from that depiction. More information is required, and over time one comes to see the establishment of Israel as just the latest in a millennia-long real-estate squabble that has cost the world much more than it has ever given.

    What does that say of present-day Israelis? I'm unsure; I've never kidded myself that it was anything other than a war going on over there.

    I live in a world where the historical tradition is colored by such notable paradoxes as the respectable character and brilliant mind of Lord Acton arguing on behalf of the American Confederacy and slavery. I live in an America where villains are folk heroes, and bright minds are vilified to fill in the abhorrent vacuum. (How is it that, all these years on, someone so reviled as Emma Goldman--once called the most feared woman in the world in her day--could be revealed as nearly prophetic on some issues is a testament to the America I live in.)

    But in the end, what to do about the process and what it brings is a difficult question. Oftentimes, the only real option is to sacrifice a principle in order to gamble on an unlikely result.

    I'm 30 years old. Trying to be a "nice guy" over the years has cost me almost every one of my defining principles. And yet the woman who has demanded over the years that such extraneous and inefficient baggage as principles should be thrown out one by one now wonders why I'm so dispassionate and without certain sympathies. It hasn't occurred to her that they're lying beside the highway here and there, parched to dust or rotting in the rain.

    And yet, there's nothing about this paring away of principles that is new or uncommon. That I feel this way, I'm told, is not unique. Turns out, if you look closely, it's the primary factor lending to what wisdom there is in the infamous Churchill quote: Any man who is under 30, and is not a liberal, has not heart; and any man who is over 30, and is not a conservative, has no brains.

    In other words, if you haven't surrendered to the absurd, if you haven't given over to sublimated vices and the appearance of conformity, if you haven't given up those things that make your life worth living to you and settled yourself proudly and confidently amid your newfound numbness, you're an idiot.

    Sorry, Winston. You can't crush the seeds of what makes a person human. You can't destroy them forever. The wrecked carcasses of fantastic flowers strewn across the desert whisper only the slightest hints of what still germinates.

    Camus knew it. Just because Sisyphus is happy doesn't mean he's smart.

    And so you wander on, seeking evidence of the passing of the Travelers--the footprints of a camel?--hoping to find the flowers amid the barren wastes.

    At least the garden grows. Whether or not we enjoy its fruits is as simple as stopping to smell the roses and looking afresh at the world around us.

    What to do about those who would steal away the blossoms and tear away the roots is a different question entirely. By the metaphysical at least, they have the right to. And, as you know, with so many people in this world, that you can is sufficient reason why you should.

    Amid the waste and wreckage, does the King of Fools smile and say, "It is good"?
     
  21. hypewaders Save Changes Registered Senior Member

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    Finding meaning amid the waste and wreckage of human relations on any scale requires no creed, but gets easier in the experience of every selfless, simple, minute, mocked, and courageous act of love.
     
  22. Proud_Muslim Shield of Islam Registered Senior Member

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    That is it....no way to discuss with someone who think Israel is not terrorist state....hell, even some jews say Israel is indeed terrorist state:

    http://www.nkusa.org

    http://www.jewsnotzionists.com

    ISRAELIS vs ARABS: WHO ARE THE REAL TERRORISTS?

    http://www.koshertaxscam.com/atroc/

    You guys are living in a state of self denial....keep sleeping dude.

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  23. spidergoat Venued Serial Membership Valued Senior Member

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    Let them hate, that's what they do best anyway. Israel does not strap bombs to it's children in order to influence the political climate. Good fences make good neighbors! If we did not support Israel, they would be besieged on all sides by the muslims, and be forced to war, which they would surely win, again.
    We have to deal with whoever is in power. Why don't you stop creating dictators and tyrants that we have to deal with?
    Perhaps when muslims become fair and just in fighting their causes, rather than resorting to terror.
    Talk is cheap, no amount of talk will defeat fanatical muslims, they are institutionally closed-minded.
    They ARE bombs of love. Feel the warm embrace of a vaporizing cloud, the only thing sure to warm the fanatical muslim's heart.
    In America, you are free to hate whoever you wish, it is none of the government's business.
     

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