Your ideas on attraction and repulsion?

Discussion in 'Physics & Math' started by one_raven, Aug 23, 2003.

  1. one_raven God is a Chinese Whisper Valued Senior Member

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    Do you have (or have you heard) a hypothesis regarding the fundamental why behind the repulsion of like charges and attraction of opposite charges?

    I would like to hear your thoughts on the subject.
     
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  3. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    This is a philosophy question rather than a physics question. There are two types of charge in the universe and that's how they behave. Nobody knows why.
     
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  5. Zarkov Banned Banned

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    No "PULL" only "PUSH"

    There is no mechanism demonstrated in reality to suggest "attraction" can happen.

    All objects must be pushed to move, even electrodynamic forces work this way via pressure.

    "Pull" is a misnomer, and only should be used when dealing with human understanding..

    Note, study pulling with a hand to an object, it really is a push from some point, same goes for why two smooth plates pushed together stay together, .etc.

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  7. one_raven God is a Chinese Whisper Valued Senior Member

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    I am not quite grasping this...

    So, when a + and a - charge are attraced to eachother, what is pushing them together?

    Can you elaborate a bit?
     
  8. Pete It's not rocket surgery Moderator

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    one_raven,
    If you're after acceptable science, be careful of advice received in public discussion forums. Some of us are considered to be crackpots.
     
  9. one_raven God is a Chinese Whisper Valued Senior Member

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    Beleieve me.
    I take everything with a grain of salt, and always look for supporting experimental evidence that supports the assertions and determine for myself if I agree with their interpretations.

    Even what "real scientists" say.

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    Thank you for the warning, though.
     
  10. Zarkov Banned Banned

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    push in magnetic electric forces.... see "pinch effect".

    It is a pressure/density thing... all interpretable via push.

    Philosophically and practically PULL can not happen.

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  11. one_raven God is a Chinese Whisper Valued Senior Member

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    Pinch Effect
    self-constriction of a cylinder of an electrically conducting plasma. When an electric current is passed through a gaseous plasma, a magnetic field is set up that tends to force the current-carrying particles together.

    So, are you saying that you believe that attraction of opposite charges is caused by the pinch effect due to fields created in an electric aether acting as a plasma?

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    If not, then I still don't get you.
    If so, how would that explain repulsion of like charges?

    What brings you to that conclusion?
    Care to elaborate?
     
  12. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Moderation message

    Zarkov,

    This is a warning.

    Future posts from you which express opinions unsupported by any science (except perhaps Zarkovian physics) and given with no actual arguments in support of them will be deleted from this forum without further comment.

    If you hold a non-conventional view, you will need to point to at least a minimal amount of evidence in support of that view.
     
  13. errandir Registered Senior Member

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    Zarkov, I thought I saw what you were saying until the pinch effect.
     
  14. Pete It's not rocket surgery Moderator

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    Hmm... I don't like deletion. Censorship by any other name still stinks.

    What if you pop in an edit along the lines of "Zarkov's views hold no relationship to conventional science?"
    What if Zarkov included a disclaimer along the lines of "My views are not accepted by mainstream science, because all scientist except me are Einstein-worshipping goat lovers. Trust me!"
     
  15. GodLied Registered Senior Member

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    Magnetically, think of a solenoid. Consider the direction of mangetic field lines. That is the direction of magnetic field lines in a magnet. Those lines go from one end to the other. From the direction of those lines it is lucid why like charges attract and unlike charges repulse each other.

    From the field lines, like charges repel because their magnetic field lines flow against each other. Also, opposite charges attract because their field lines complement each other. Furthermore, a magnet flips to align magnetically with another magnet because its field lines roll it into agreement with the other magnet's field lines.

    JMG.

    PS: We should start a FAQ for elementary queries in physics and math.
     
  16. John Connellan Valued Senior Member

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    All forces are transmitted by force-carrying particles of varying mass and its the mass which determines how far a distance the force acts over. For example gravity acts over huge distances so gravitons have little or no mass like photons. I suppose u can think of these particles interacting with 'real' particles and transferring energy + momentum to them causing the real particles to be pushed apart but I still see no way that particles can be drawn together (as in gravity) without a pulling force too?!
     
  17. GodLied Registered Senior Member

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    Re: Re: Your ideas on attraction and repulsion?

    In addition to that, we use direction of magnetic field lines to explain the direction a conductor moves between two parallel electrodes when current runs through it from one electrode to the other.

    It is too bad the moderator thought the original physics query was a philosophical one. Such a moderator can learn from posts like this but will have difficulty in correcting others. Hmm.

    I agree with Pete that scientific notions, real or imaginary, theoretic or proven, should not be censored because the moderator does not agree with the scientific perspective of the poster. If all such posts lacking supportive scientific consideration were censored, some of my posts would be omitted without ever entering the fray of debatability. How boring a forum would be where opinions will not be exchanged.

    JMG.
     
  18. Crisp Gone 4ever Registered Senior Member

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    "It is too bad the moderator thought the original physics query was a philosophical one. Such a moderator can learn from posts like this but will have difficulty in correcting others. Hmm."

    It is too bad that some people do not know the difference between philosophy and science.

    Bye!

    Crisp
     
  19. Zarkov Banned Banned

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    Too Bad

    >> It is too bad that some people do not know the difference between philosophy and science.

    The concepts regarding the mechanism of force action, is well and truely in the realms of PHYSICS.

    This is a physics question.

    IMO, THERE is no way a force can act on another by pull, attraction etc.......

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    James R is creating a smoke screen to hide his fascism and prejudice, and IMO therefore shameful conduct.
     
  20. Crisp Gone 4ever Registered Senior Member

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    In the Newtonian framework, forces are postulates, defined through the second law (anything that accelerates a mass is a force). The exact form of the gravitational interaction or the Coulomb interactions are postulates (even though they are highly supported by experimental evidence).

    Hence, as you are going deeper than this level, you are going to a level where no physicist has ever dared to wander. Simply because there is no scientific answer. Why is a force attractive or repulsive ? Well, the easy answer is: by definition.

    Especially the electromagnetic interaction has little or no physical explanations today, as charge is - up till now - considered to be a fundamental property of particles. Why gravity is attractive has a more or less better answer (in general relativity) even though you can keep on asking questions regarding the "how" and the "why". You'll always end up to some point where physics has nothing to say about it anymore, and from that point onward you are in the world of philosophy.

    Bye!

    Crisp
     
  21. Pete It's not rocket surgery Moderator

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    There is no such thing as a "fundamental why".

    No matter what explanations you find, you can always ask "But why is it that way?"

    There is always another 'why'.


    (Feel free to quote me - I always wanted to be in a .sig

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  22. Zarkov Banned Banned

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    SO, The argument for push and pull is traditional, some pyhsists agree that there is only push to transfer a force.

    Certainly in the physical touching world pull can not be productive.

    Fields are theory, however in my understanding push is still the only mode of action.

    Even Newton though "pull" was not a viable concept. The "spooky action at a distance" concept.

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  23. one_raven God is a Chinese Whisper Valued Senior Member

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    Whether or not there is a "fundamental why" may very well be philosophy.
    Whether or not we should take a reductionist approach to science and find our way to the most fundamental truth we can is the philosophy of science.
    If you DO agree with the reductionist philosophy, then discussing how deeply we can ask and answer why would be science.

    I would still like you to explain your reasoning behind that.
    You just keep repeating it, and that does not help me to understand your position.

    Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't it Einstein that coined that phrase? Not newton?
     

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