You Will Speak English at Geno's in Philadelphia

Never found some for Australia either. All the stuff about mateship, and fair go seemed normal in any country to me.

 

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Look dude, you can be irritated at whatever the fuck you want to get irritated at. It's your goddamned God given American right to vocalize about what a pussy you are. It's written right into our Constitution (look it up).

But as soon as you try to pass laws about what someone else is allowed to say? Well, you've just passed into fascist territory, friend.

 

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You know what really irritates me is when they wear unamerican cloths or listen to songs with spanish lyrics. I mean I was having my picnic in the park not in el parko!

I also don't like the aesthetics of fast food restaurant architecture and I am ready to legislate.

I really hate when English tourists talk about prams, the underground and pronounce two 'u's in vaccuum. I mean those fucking limeys just crossed the Atlantic for god's sake. Hell, even when they become legal residents they still say things like 'Cheers' and they are so fucking polite it's foreign and snooty.

 

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True story

I remember this one day I was walking down the street in Seattle. Heading back to the office, in fact. (That's how long ago this was.)

I was approached by a tourist couple whose accents identified them as subjects of the Crown. They asked me how to get to Pike Place Market.

The sad thing is that I'm horrible at giving directions. "Let's see ... Pike is that way, about two blocks. Then go that way on Pike and you'll run into the Market before you fall in the water."

They thanked me. The directions were good enough. I asked them where they were from. Sure enough, they were English.

"Oh," I said. "I should ... I should probably offer you my condolences."

It struck me as I said it that perhaps they thought I was making a joke. The man said, "I'm sorry?"

"It just came across the wire," I told them. "The Queen Mother has died." The man's face fell. The woman nodded as if I told her the hummus at the Pike Brewery was worth a try.

I always felt badly about that. I was clumsy and inelegant on that occasion, and figured my lack of grace utterly ruined their day.

Now I realize, though, that they were horrified that I insisted on recognizing their Englishness. They just wanted to be American, and here I was (poorly) attempting to respect the fact that they were English. How dare I!

And yet, they were so polite about it.

"I—" the man began, and nodded slowly. When he spoke again, his voice had a slight rasp. "Thank you."

I lit another cigarette, watched them trudge along toward Pike Street, reflected on how strange I had managed to make their day. Grown men were weeping into their pints in England proper, and here I'd managed to insult these perfectly polite tourists who were just looking for the goddamn fishmonger's to take pictures of the place where Spike Lee once filmed a commercial.

I was so embarrassed.

Now I realize what utter and complete bastards they were. The least they could have done was tell me to fuck off.

 

Now that was a funny story - necessarily including, in fact centering on your internal thought and emotional processes. I cannot be certain the couple were 'wankers'

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, but politeness should never be confused with being a decent person. The English honed down to an art the compliment that is an insult, the apology that is an accusation, the praise that is a criticism. What the Japanese can do with intensities of silence and lengths of pauses, the English can do with irony - taken in it's broadest sense. 'Rapier wit' is barely a metaphor over there. William F. Buckley wished he was English even if he didn't know it. Why, how crass it is to actually have to come and say you are superior, when you can convey it and save the poor creature you are skewering embarrassment. And in that sparing the victim is another slash.

 

I don't get it.

 

Which it?

 

Tiassa's it.

 

LMFAO!!!

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I don't know why people like to single U.S. out, as if it's some country unlike all other countries. I say U.S. is an absolutely normal country, functioning in ordinary ways. Are you trying to hint that the language most commonly spoken in U.S. should change to Spanish? Let's compare U.S. to modern-day France, a country which also feels overwhelmed with immigrants. Is French no longer going to be the language of France because there are so many Muslim immigrants there?

I have great respect for you, there's no need for you to copy someone else's stupid argument. As a teen, I did read a couple of books published in the beginning of last century and, aside from some very minor differences in spelling, it was all very comprehensible and not difficult to understand. We have members on this board who are in their 60s, like Cosmictraveller and FraggleRocker, and we have no trouble understanding each other. That must be because we all speak English. You are 10 years older than me and you understand me perfectly well. And English is not even my first language.

My first language is Russian. The curse words and slang that were used in the beginning of last century in Russia are pretty much the same as the ones used today.

Actually, why don't I start talking in Russian to you, assuming that learning yet another language would be very beneficial for you?

Shouldn't the teachers speak English in the classroom? There are a lot of Russians in my area, my niece's class is 40% Russian; but the teachers speak English all the time. They said, in the beginning of the year, that a lot of parents are concerned about their children's language skills being insufficient; the teachers said that kids adapt within a year.

Please supply statistics which would show that the number of Latinos in U.S. not learning English is relatively small.

It always helps to know more than one language. Shall we demand all police stations to hire people who also know German, Mandarin, and French? While it would be helpful, it's not always possible.

I have never commented on the skin color of immigrants from Central and Latin Americas. But, to make you feel better, blacks speak English in U.S.

That's an incomplete argument. Go ahead, finish it, say that U.S.A. has no culture.

How does that take Baseball out of U.S. culture? In Britain, everyone is crazy about soccer and the royal family. Many people around the world are crazy about soccer and the British royals as well now, but those two traits are still very important components of British culture.

Have you ever traveled outside U.S.? Although English is accepted as international language, like French used to be back in the day, and although most people in Europe learn English in school, many locals will look wide-eyed at you if you speak English to them. That's why you usually learn some basic phrases in the language of the country you're going to visit before you get there. Isn't that practical?

 

I agree. I am disgusted every time I see the small kids watch this small pedro cartoon tool shop or something and he interchanged half of the words with spanish!

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Worse, there are multiple forms of Chinese, and if you speak only one, there's a good chance you won't understand the others. Chinese is essentially a group of closely related languages...and somehow China has survived as a distinct culture for a very long time. Apparently no one told tham that multiple languages were supposed to make them implode.

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Who cares what Geno does? It's his business, he can either choose to hire workers that know Chinese or Klingon or High Elven- it doesn't matter, it's his business!

 

Plus Genos makes shitty, greasy cheeseteaks! Spanish speakers are better off being unwelcome there. (Then again, not that Pat's is any better.)

 

thanks, thought it was my it.

 

That isn't necessary, of course. The law could be written so that the only language required in commercial or legal proceedings would be English - so that in all official business, any other language would be at private discretion, and auxiliary to the formal language - without banning other languages at the convenience of the office or entity.

That would head off a looming confusion and hassle to come, when certain parts of the country will otherwise become difficult to navigate and live in by current citizens of the US. Considering the importance of exact language in laws, for example, do you really want to allow the coercion of the state to line up behind, say, either a Spanish or an English version of California State Law, at the discretion of some prosecutor ?

Being a country of multculural, multilingual citizens is one thing - being a truly and officially bilingual country is something else. It has a serious down side.

 

This and that

Actually, given that the French are an object of broad American derision for behaviors including their disdain for languages not French, I find it interesting that you would pick France.

I doubt we'll ever see a full-fledged conversion to Spanish in this country. In fact, that the world at large has been learning to speak English in order to take part in the financial game we Americans have built—and, of course, since many of those countries around the world suffered British rule—I really think this panic about Spanish is a bit silly.

Don't be such a wet end.

Yeah? And that's Russian. Don't be so whack.

This is a separate question from whether teachers who are capable of communicating more efficiently with any given student in another language should be prohibited from doing so.

See Truth in Immigration:

Gara LaMarche, of the Atlantic Philanthropies, noted last August, "Many talk radio callers rail about immigrants who “refuse” to learn English, but how many are aware of the vast chasm between those who are desperate to learn the language and the paucity of ESL classes in which they can enroll?"

Indeed, it's not always possible. But that is also a separate issue from whether or not they should be prohibited from speaking those languages when it would be more efficient in the investigation of a crime.

Yet you support the racists. That's the sad thing about someone in your position, Whitewolf. You want to say, "I'm not a racist, I just want to use their rhetoric."

So ... you're just going to write my argument for me?

It doesn't. The return of black people to MLB changed an identifying custom instead of adapting to it.

• • •​

Well, if those lazy Brits had been decent enough to conceal their foreignness, they would have told me to fuck off.

 

Jive talkin'

Whitewolf

The resolution in the first scene is bad, but that only serves my purpose; it's a lot harder to read the subtitles. The other links are .wav files.

The people in these scenes are all speaking English.

• Airplane — "Jive smack"
• Airplane — "Ordering dinner"
• Airplane — "Barbara Billingsley and the mystery illness"
• Transcript and translation for the above scenes.​

Yes, it's an extreme example, but it serves my point. And I even went through my days of wishing black people would speak English. But I outgrew it. I learned to worry about that sort of thing growing up in a middle-class exurbia where only cute white guys were supposed to do the jive talkin', and it meant something entirely different.

And on that note, I figure I should probably give one of your points greater consideration than I did earlier:

That's because we're generally conforming to a tacit standard. To the other, look closely and you'll see that we don't necessarily understand each other without trouble. Do you understand what Gustav says?

Okay, let me ask that again: Do you really understand what Gustav says? I like to think I do, but he and I fail to communicate from time to time. How about S.A.M.? If we don't have any trouble communicating at Sciforums, how is it that our Sciforums neighbors who are fluent in a common language can so utterly miss one another's point from time to time? Really, how is it that one can read what another writes, and even quote it, and then turn around and respond by accusing the exact opposite of the one, or in a manner so far removed from the point of argument as to seem like a cheap farce? My father and I have had thirty-four years to learn to understand one another, and we still have to work at it.

We're human beings. All of us. Failing to communicate is something we do very well. In this context, the true offense of the linguistically-restricted immigrant is the puncturing of the very pretense you purport, that all us English-speakin' 'Mericans un'erstan' one'nother perfec'ly, 'thout any trouble 'tall.

If we all set the tacit standard aside and wrote as we speak in our social circles, communication would get even more spotty than it already is.

 

It was simply the first example that came to mind. Spain and Sweden are also overwhelmed by immigrants, and so is Britain.

The panic depends on geography. Spanish-speaking immigrants come through the border with Mexico and target specific cities. The situation in those towns cities is not the same as, let's say, in Salt Lake City. The statistic you quoted in this post is skewed for the same reason and also because it talks about all immigrants en masse, but we're discussing particularly immigrants from Central and Latin Americas.

I do like being a big penis. Thanks.

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But you must agree, it'd be beneficial for you to learn the language. Matter of fact, я знаю, Вы уже согласны, сэр. Начнем прям щас. Gods forbid I say something vital for this conversation in Russian, you'll skip it because you're lazy.

This is a big question on how to raise children in general, and particularly bilingual children. You can explain to me, an adult, why you think you may say something in my language now but not later, but you can't do the same with a child. With children, consistency is absolutely necessary, or they won't understand what you expect from them. You know this, you're a dad.

So now ESL classes are necessary? Didn't I read somewhere in this thread that the best way to learn a language is not in a class but through ordinary communication? Those links touch up on a larger issue, illegal immigration. In the second link in particular, the writer promotes legalisation of those millions of immigrants that are here already without the necessary documents. I don't support illegal immigration, whatever color they are. This country has set up quotas to ensure economic well-being for those who are already here. It is true, for those who come here illegally, it is hard to enroll in an ESL class that is for legal immigrants. Before accepting students, institutions usually ask for documentation. But that's no excuse. People who cross Mexico's border illegally are young and perfectly capable of learning the language without a class, the journey is not for the elderly.

So you do think it's necessary for police stations to hire translators for Russian, Mandarin, Swedish, Japanese, and Hindu? Okay. Let's not forget Arabic dialects.

I did not make a single comment on skin color. You want to make this a racial issue? Okay, here goes: in the February 2008 issue, National Geographic published an article on immigration from Central America. In it, one immigrant says to the other: "The answer is this 'You Americans have plenty of work. You're not going to do the cleaning. You're not going to take out the garbage. That is for the Latino, or the black person.'" And, since we're presented with an English translation, he did say Negro in Spanish. Priceless quote. Here are Americans, beating themselves with true Christian guilt over every year of their history, trying to please everyone with Affirmative Action overkill. And it's really not true, where I worked and studied, I saw a lot of white janitors and maids. That quote did not come from someone who has never been to U.S., the article says he already lives in U.S. but went back to his country to visit relatives and was now coming to U.S. again, again illegally.

So that is your argument? Okay. People who have not taken at least an intro class to cultural anthropology should not talk about culture, because they don't know what culture is. Culture is not necessarily something high-brow or good-mannered; it simply encompasses things shared by a group, including speech, history, activities, objects. Sports like Baseball and Football are part of American culture, along with July 4th, Turkey Day, American version of English language, and our rugged individualism that allows everyone to think whatever they want. When you met the couple that spoke British English, you knew they were not American right away because language is a very defining part of culture. Anyone who does not celebrate July 4th by watching fireworks or having a barbecue or both is simply odd. If you don't acknowledge that the year starts on Jan. 1, you're out of sync with everyone else. You know Americans like eggs 'n bacon or pancakes for breakfast.

You argued that not everyone likes the same type of music. It's not as black-and-white as you think. You'd think that Jazz is only for white enthusiasts and blacks know nothing besides Rap; but I've been to Jazz and Swing concerts and the audiences were mostly black young people who softly sang, tapped, and clapped along to the music. You spat out some slang, whatever. Looking at the popularity of the word "nigga" in our language today, you'd think it's something new; but the word appears in old Beatles' songs with the same meaning as is used today. Young people do read books and listen to music of previous generations, if not on their own then as part of school program.

I don't get it. Are you really trying to make this a racial issue? It's not.

I have dial-up, I can't view those videos at this time. I'll simply assume you linked to something out of whack.

Black people in this country do speak English, their form of speech may be classified as a dialect. That's why you can still comprehend what they say. It's not a different language.

Yes, I understand what Gustav says. We even used to chat on Yahoo messenger for a while a couple of years ago. The misunderstandings you spoke about first are not due to use of different language. You know exactly what I meant. I speak this way, although not in such quantities.

Even Shakespear's English is not completely incomprehensible to you, a person living many centuries later and speaking American English.

 

This and that

Heaven help us if I say something vital to this conversation in a common language; you'll skip it because you're lazy.

Such as this:

Baseball is becoming more and more an international culture in the United States. And it started when Jackie Robinson returned black men to the game of baseball, which had been purified in order to reflect the dominant culture.

So stop being lazy. This all comes back to your assertion that "A nation of immigrants means that all immigrants are welcome as long as they come in to join the nation, live by the country's laws, and participate at least in the most identifying cultural customs."

Perhaps at some point you'd like to try answering the question I asked: "What, exactly, are these identifying cultural customs? Language and what else? Apostasy, maybe?"

Duck it all you want, Whitewolf. The statistical burden is yours now. And, given that you stated, "If we all got stubborn and refused to learn a common language, we'd never be a big nation with a big country", that's a pretty tough bar you've set.

If this is how you look at parenting, don't ever have kids. Consider the question of what you invest that consistency in. If it's obedience to abstract principles, that is the return you'll get as they grow. If it is learning in general, that is the return you'll get. The better a parent can balance the many facets of intellectual and psychological growth, the better the child will perform. But holding children back for racist pride teaches them certain lessons too, Whitewolf.

You encounter certain problems with that argument. If you want a certain result, you need to make opportunities available. Additionally, given that the central theme of this discussion involves excluding those who are not proficient from ordinary functions in life, the result is, conveniently for you, an exclusion of certain people. As you note here, we're discussing Central and Latin American immigrants in particular, which only lends to the sense that this is a racist issue.

Again, you encounter certain problems: kick out the illegals and the standard of living for the rest of us declines. So much for the economic well-being of those who are "already here".

Are you implying, then, that the illegals aren't here? I mean, in addition to being utterly and completely wrong, you could entertain me greatly by explaining just where you think they are.

Or are you, to borrow a word, just being lazy?

Don't forget those who simply overstay their visas. Or are you suggesting airline travel is not for the elderly? Maybe you're just relying on a stereotype? You know, to borrow a word, because you're being lazy?

Depends on whether or not the police have an interest in accurate reports of incidents, or maybe solving crimes.

It is possible to use racist rhetoric without mentioning skin color. To reiterate a point about ESL classes:

If you want a certain result, you need to make opportunities available. Additionally, given that the central theme of this discussion involves excluding those who are not proficient from ordinary functions in life, the result is, conveniently for you, an exclusion of certain people. As you note here, we're discussing Central and Latin American immigrants in particular, which only lends to the sense that this is a racist issue.​

I'll go look it up. I should have that issue lying around somewhere. Meantime, what is your point? Oh, right:

You mean he used the proper word in his language? What does that have to do with the quote being priceless?

"True Christian guilt"? You know, I kept hoping through that paragraph that you would actually make a point, but, hey, more fool me for expecting it in the first place.

Whatever you say, Whitewolf. That seems to be, after all, the whole point of your argument.

And yet so many do when it serves anti-immigrant paranoia.

"Rugged individualism". Our culture is a bad cliché. Of course, I already knew this.

You also left out our hallmark ethnic diversity. Of course, that's not convenient to your supremacist rhetoric, is it?

Well, there are always other cues. They very well could have been American. They're not necessarily going to ditch their accents in the time it takes to naturalize. Of course, by your argument, they should be obliged to. You know, in order to participate in the most identifying cultural aspects of our society?

So expectations of ritualism are an identifying cultural aspect of our society?

Not only that, you'll confuse your bank.

Maybe you're right about being odd for not participating in ritual. Vegetarians, for instance ....

Okay. You're doing okay so far. But the crash is spectacular:

(chortle!)

Seriously, even as a hypothetical, that's ridiculous.

Were you impressed?

I mean, come on, dude.

Hang on, hang on. Let's take a look at that sentence in its full glory:

Wow.

You've been to jazz and swing shows where young black people softly sang, tapped, and clapped along to the music?

What the hell am I supposed to say to that?

I mean, your patronizing attitude sure as hell showed me somethin', tellyawhat.

Which songs? I can think of one offhand, but it wasn't a Beatles song.

And? Doesn't mean someone who was hip in the 1950s has a clue what a teenager in full glory is saying these days.

I mean, hell, I was a teenager when the word hit, but I still don't know what "miggada mack" means. Or how to spell it. I must be lazy.

And so we come back to this point. Baseball, the American pastime. A grand tradition among our people. And this tradition is transforming. Rather than adapting to the identifying cultural aspects, black, hispanic, and Asian players are transforming it. If you weren't so fixated on race, ethnicity, and exclusionism, Whitewolf, you might be capable of recognizing that the point is about the notion of one of the conditions of immigrants being welcome is that they "participate at least in the most identifying cultural customs".

In doing so, they will transform those customs. And part of what will be transformed is how we communicate with one another. The language and our expectations thereof will, indeed, change. Unless, of course, we want to be inflexible. Then the language will change and we'll just get upset about it.

As with illegal immigration in general, part of your complaint, Whitewolf, is with the people who hire employees who are not proficient in English. A friend of mine works for a massive catering company. There is no prerequisite that you speak Spanish, but even though you have to interview in English, plenty of supervisors choose to speak Spanish because it's simply more efficient. Since this is so offensive to people, instead of complaining about the immigrants, perhaps you should take it up with the employers and supervisors.

Then click the translation link. This one.

There are plenty of people in this country, of all colors and ethnicities, who speak dialects that are generally incomprehensible.

If you say so. Quite clearly, we're failing to communicate on certain points in our present discussion.

True, but if Jorge the dishwasher at my friend's work had as many teachers, professors, and critics telling us what he meant, people would be more likely to understand him than Shakespeare.