Would Axis have won WW2 without US involvement?

From another thread:

So Bells is of the opinion that the allies would have ultimately defeated Germany with or without US help. I find that hard to believe. Of course he makes no mention of the other axis powers, especially Japan. Clearly the US played the key role in defeating Japan. Even discounting US military actions in Europe, could the allies have fought for long without US support? I think not. All the allied nations played an important role in achieving victory. It was a close fought thing, and could have easily gone the other way. Take away any of the major players, and the outcome would have been different.

 

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i believe germany would have held europe.
most of europe had been overrun and britain was reeling from germanys punches. the only major player besides the US was russia. as long as hitler behaved himself he would be safe from russia.

 

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US supplied the Allies with so many things, and then had to help out by sending in troops. I doubt the Allies would've won without America.

Russia was so horribly weak. Yea they pulled a glorious victory, but that malnourished, under-supplied army couldn't have done it all on its own.

 

Actually it did most of the war on its own. People think that the Soviet army was pure crap, but it was only that in the beginning of the war. Previously Stalin had purged the ranks of the soviet army of many competent commanders. It took a while to recover from this, but actually in the end the Soviet forces beat the shit out of the germans because of many factors. One of which was actually superior tactics. There was the numerical superiority. And also the little known fact that despite low production figures for essential materials such as steel, aluminium and such the Soviets did manage to pump out more tanks and such as the opponent.

Sure, the US provided the soviet army with extremely helpful stuff such as trucks. The soviet union hardly had any. Most transportation was done with american made trucks. However, this was not a decisive factor in the war. Railways could have been used. Trucks still transported only a limited amount of what needed to be transported. Human power was still going strong in the soviet army and of course the soviet army could have changed the focus of its production capacity towards things such as trucks if they hadn't gotten them from the USA.

People often underestimate the soviet army. It's a mistake. They had the largest standing army at the end of the war. They had the best tank. They had tactics based on artillery and mechanized warfare. They had good commanders and in this respect Stalin was in fact superior to Hitler. He hardly meddled with the specifics of the tactics employed by the commanders. Hitler did. And it cost him.

The best german armies were not in the west. They were in the east. The german army was defeated in the east. After that it was a mopping up operation that was joined by the other allied forces in the west.

In fact in the end the German resistance was lowered in the west to give the american led allied forces a chance to compete with the Russians. To the Russians the german forces resisted with everything they got because they knew that the soviets would show no mercy after what they did to the soviets.

end rant.

 

Russia could've kept Germany from overtking it, but I don't think they would have had a very successful attempt to take any substantial land from Germany Also, sooner or later, Japan would have been fighting them in the east.

 

They actually did take back substantial land from the Germans before the allied forces even landed.

And destroying more than one german army in the process.


Some of the best german forces had been destroyed already in Stalingrad. A whole army gone. One of the best army groups the Germans had.

They lost the power to take the initiative and were more or less dependent on what the Soviet forces would do next.

And after stalingrad, August 1943, the Battle of the Lower Dnieper. 4 million troops involved. One of the largest and bloodiest battles ever. estimated casualites range from around 1.7 million and up.

Another costly defeat for the Wehrmacht.

January 1944. The allied forces had still not landed in France.

In the north, a Soviet offensive in January 1944 had relieved the siege of Leningrad. The Germans conducted an orderly retreat from the Leningrad area to a shorter line based on the lakes to the south.

In the south, in March, two Soviet fronts encircled Generaloberst Hans-Valentin Hube's First Panzer Army north of the Dniestr river. The Germans escaped the pocket in April, saving most of their men but losing their heavy equipment.

In early May, the Red Army's 3rd Ukrainian Front engaged German Seventeenth Army of Army Group South which had been left behind after the German retreat from the Ukraine. The battle was a complete victory for the Red Army, and a botched evacuation effort across the Black Sea led to over 250,000 German and Romanian casualties.

And in June the Allied forces finally landed in Normandy, but were largely stuck their in the beginning.

At the same time the Soviets didn't really linger around.

After the destruction of Army Group Center, the Soviets attacked German forces in the south in mid-July 1944, and in a month's time they cleared Ukraine of German presence.

The Red Army's 2nd and 3rd Ukrainian Fronts engaged German Heeresgruppe Südukraine, which consisted of German and Romanian formations, in an operation to occupy Romania and destroy the German formations in the sector. The result of the battle was complete victory for the Red Army and a switch of Romania from the Axis to the Allied camp.

In October 1944, General der Artillerie Maximilian Fretter-Pico's Sixth Army encircled and destroyed three corps of Marshal Rodion Yakovlevich Malinovsky's Group Pliyev near Debrecen, Hungary. This was to be the last German victory in the Eastern front.

The Red Army's 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Baltic Fronts engaged German Army Group Center and Army Group North to capture the Baltic region from the Germans. The result of the series of battles was a permanent loss of contact between Army Groups North and Centre, and the creation of the Courland Pocket in Latvia. From December 29, 1944 to February 13, 1945, Soviet forces laid siege to Budapest, which was defended by German Waffen-SS and Hungarian forces. It was one of the bloodiest sieges of the war.

The soviets were on a roll. They had become an unstoppable force.

 

Everything before the Allies landed ion Normandy was just Russia taking it's own land back. They got a few armies out of the way. Britain could've taken Italy by itself, so Germany probably would've been overtaken eventually, but I don't think Russia could've done it alone. They would have been occupied with protecting their eastern front from Japan, which would've had conscipted soldiers from all over Asia before making an attack.

 

They destroyed the German army before the Americans set a foot in Normandy.

 

spuriousmonkey, 30% of the Russian Army, was supplied by the United States,

http://peacecountry0.tripod.com/lendlse.htm

Lend-Lease to the USSR

October 1941 to June 1942
aircraft 1285
tanks 2249
machine-guns 81287
explosives 59455620 pounds
trucks 36825
field telephones 56445
telephone wire 600000 km

1942 and 1943

aircraft 3052
tanks 4084
vehicles 520000
Fighter Aircraft
P-39 5707 (4719 reached the USSR)
P-40 2397
P-47 195
P-63 2397 (21 lost in transfer)
Hurricane 2952
Spitfire 1331

Total: 14982 (own production: 74740)

Bomber and Attack Aircraft

A-20 2908
B-25 862
B-24 1
Hampden 23
Al bemarle 14
Mosquito 1

Total: 3809 (own production: 65008)


According to Ukranian source: Andrew Gregorovich
The USA supplied the USSR with 6,430 planes, 3,734 tanks, 104 ships and boats, 210,000 autos, 3,000 anti-aircraft guns, 245,000 field telephones, gasoline, aluminum, copper, zinc, steel and five million tons of food. This was enough to feed an army of 12 million every day of the war. Britain supplied 5,800 planes, 4,292 tanks, and 12 minesweepers. Canada supplied 1,188 tanks, 842 armoured cars, nearly one million shells, and 208,000 tons of wheat and flour. The USSR depended on American trucks for its mobility since 427,000 out of 665,000 motor vehicles (trucks and jeeps) at the end of the war were of western origin.

 

How is that 30%?

You just mention some stuff.

 

Im of the opinion that the latter 2nd world war years were very much so in the balance, ergo the envolvement of the yanks was indeed decisive.

 

Oh shit I should have voted for A not B.

 

except for 1938 america provided over 50% of all production during ww2.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_production_during_World_War_II

 

japan didnt have an interest in europe at that time, the attack against america was purely against them. and i believe that europe would have still won in the end. our tactics were far superiour to theirs

 

Discounting US efforts, I think the Germans could have developed the bomb first and taken over the world. No doubt they would have used it with less restraint. They were already working on reactors, but hadn't succeeded in making it work.

 

I recall the Soviet capture and destruction of Berlin.

 

How old are you?

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Not THAT old!!!!! I read. I'm 43.

 

wasn't that after britain and the US carpet bombed germany?
and after the invasion of normandy?
neither of those would have happened if america stayed out of the war.