Worldviews

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by Magical Realist, May 10, 2016.

  1. surreptitious57 Registered Member

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    Militant atheism can arguably be justified where there is any attempt to invoke religious privilege
    However I draw the line when it comes to mere belief as everyone has the right to think whatever
    they want as long as it does not impact up on anyone elses right to do likewise. In a multicultural
    and multi faith society the only practical solution is secularism. Yet not everyone agrees with this
    Like predominantly monotheistic cultures where such a concept may be regarded with suspicion
     
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  3. cluelusshusbund + Public Dilemma + Valued Senior Member

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    Of course... influences are an ever changin continous stream.!!!
    What i mean by "free will/choice" is the ability to choose otherwize... which i dont thank ther is due to cause an effect... ie... same input will result in the same output makin "free will/the ability to choose otherwize" an impossibility.!!!
     
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  5. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    Are you saying then that freewill is an illusion? That when I decide to reach for the glass of lemonade it's not really me deciding but some unknown and perhaps random impulse? Why would the brain use up precious circuitry generating an illusion of free will? What evolutionary advantage was there to dedicating more time to seeming to decide instead of acting instantaneously with no hesitation whatsoever?
     
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  7. surreptitious57 Registered Member

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    Does the brain not make decisions a fraction of a second before one is consciously aware of them? Is this not an acknowledged
    fact in neuroscience? Is it actually physically possible to act instantaneously given how the firing of neurons takes time so then
    cannot occur absolutely immediately. When sprinters in a race start to run do they do so at the exact point of the gun going off
    Or do they have to wait a fraction of a second until they have actually heard it? The answer is the latter as the speed of sound is
    finite and not instantaneous. As with waiting for the gun to be fired then so too with waiting on neurons to be fired in the brain
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2016
  8. cluelusshusbund + Public Dilemma + Valued Senior Member

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    I dont thank the brain has a purpose... it evolved thru natural processes to be exactly as it is... an as the brain evolved higher consciousness also evolved... an along wit that came the ability to contemplate the human condition... an due to our ignorance of cause an effect we got it wrong... ie... not just our bodies... but our consciousness is also biological an bound by cause an effect.!!!
     
  9. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    But you don't think our consciousness has a causal effect on our internal processes? That when I will to raise my hand, and it raises, that this really wasn't due to my willing but due to some other mysterious cause?
     
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  10. cluelusshusbund + Public Dilemma + Valued Senior Member

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    Any cause is jus anuther link in the unbroken chain of cause an effect.!!!
     
  11. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    So ultimately the Big Bang caused my hand to raise?

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  12. cluelusshusbund + Public Dilemma + Valued Senior Member

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    Yes... i thank its just that "simple"

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    Of course that woud depend on the universe bein deterministic... an even if ther are random events (non-deterministic universe) thers still no ability to choose otherwise.!!!
     
  13. C C Consular Corps - "the backbone of diplomacy" Valued Senior Member

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    You're still making the decisions that CH or Tim would make in this world when encountering _x_ situations. In the course of this life you're still discovering what an identity like yours does when existing in a world like this. You would have to be someone else (a different human system) in order to have potentially made different choices in response to the same events again. But the latter is thereby just a "does not follow" or nonsensical figure of speech which people sometimes utter, since being born as someone else would mean eliminating you.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2016
  14. river Valued Senior Member

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    Hmmmm. ...interesting.

    In the end the only philosophy that works in the end ; is one in which Humanity survives . To the furthest reaches of infinity.

    Advanced thinking I know .

    So what do we as Humans do ; what direction should we take ? ; the direction of most knowledge and flexibility ; strength; weakness ; intellect ; retardation( which we all have by the way ; we all have some ology in which we are very , very , very ; slow to grasp ; have we not ? . When true to yourself ; you will find the truth in what I say ) .

    When we mature as a whole to not fear what we don't understand ; but to ask ? What do you mean ? Out of respect .

    Look ; rather than love another ; which has infinite connotations; I would rather respect , honor and understanding towards each other.

    Feel free to Add to this .....

    river
     
  15. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    My world view is connected to the observation that we have two centers of consciousness. The primary center is the inner self which is the center of the unconscious mind. The secondary center is the ego, which is the center of the conscious mind.

    The inner self is common to both humans and animal consciousness and is connected to DNA and evolution. The ego or secondary is only common to humans. It is relatively new; less than 10,000 years, and is the source of what we call free will. Free will is the ability of the secondary center to make choices that differ from the primary. The primary center contains our natural human instincts; ape man, that has evolved over eons. Free will allows humans to make choices than can depart from evolution and instinct; good, bad and ugly choices.

    As an analogy, a lion has the instinct to hunt, kill and eat. This is connected to its inner self. If it developed a secondary center, it could depart from this schema; It may decide to kill for sport, or stop hunting all together, eat berries and become a vegetarian, etc. This will create a conflict between the two centers since the genetic center is very conservative.

    World views that are based on an ego center are very diverse. World views based on the primary center tend to have more in common, since the primary center is common to all humans; natural human instinct and natural human propensities. For example, most people have a propensity for family and friends, regardless of your secular or nonsecular beliefs; inner self. However, since they live in a given culture, they will tend to accept the local customs to satisfy the need for community.

    Secular tends to choose the ego center, leading to a relative world view; there are no absolutes only ego-centric opinions. Religions tend to choose the inner self center, which define absolutes based on the schema of human nature and evolution; selective advantage.

    This difference is why religions are better at integrating people, of different backgrounds, easier than secular. For example, a religion like Christianity does not have to be legislated; free option. Yet it can integrate people all over the world, even though each group may have totally different secular backgrounds. If we put Christianity aside and only look at the ego-centric differences, cultures will not overlap the same way.

    One aspect of this difference is connected to the two sides of the brain, each of which processes data in different ways. The left brain is more differential. Like in math, differentiation finds the slope of a curve at a given point. This is the preferred processing style of the secondary; ego. The curve is analogous to the diverse options of humanity. While the slope at a point on that curve, is a specific secular choice; world view.

    The right brain is different and is more integral. Like in math, integration finds the areas under the curve from A to B. This is the preferred processing style of the inner self. The curve, again, is all of humanity. The inner self attempts to integrate this curve from A to B; common to all humans. As an example of both, say we went to a ball game over in Japan. The inner self will see the oriental crowd; integration. The ego will scan the crowd to find their friend who they are meeting.

    The ego enter is easier to differentiate, since all one has to do is be self centered to find the secondary center's sweet spot. The inner self takes more work to differentiate. One needs use the ego to find the slopes of the inner self curve, at many points from Y to Z; finds it height, width and depth. If you can do that, the inner self can be used to integrate the ego, from alpha to omega. One becomes the paradox of integrated uniqueness.

    The secondary or human ego was originally integral, when it first evolved; integrated uniqueness. It was a spin off from the primary and used the right brain; part of nature (paradise). Since we use both sides of the brain at the same time and only one side can be conscious to the secondary, the left brain was unconscious and populated by the inner self.

    Early invention was not done consciously, but rather unconsciously; creative hunches that integrated with natural human instincts. This led to a slow and conservative rate of invention; fire, stone tools takes ten of thousands of years. It was the migration of the human ego to the left brain, which changed everything. The symbolism of the tower of Babel where the common language; right brain ego, changes to diversity; left brain ego, until nobody had the same world view.

    Finding and differentiating the inner self takes the left brain ego. Once found, to allow the inner self to integrate the ego, requires a migration of the ego back to the right brain, until the programming is complete. The left brain becomes more unconscious; matrix spontaneous differential creation, that reflects the collective diversity implicit of differentiation in light of an overall integrated scheme; human nature.
     
  16. C C Consular Corps - "the backbone of diplomacy" Valued Senior Member

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    That is a way of defining the "free will" concept so that the adjective is actually supplying a modification: A system that is receptive to additional "programming" which can counter and expand the cognitive / behavioral operating scheme it originally came equipped with. I doubt that animals lack any capacity whatsoever to deviate from their native or indigenous instructions, but such is usually not going to happen in the wild or minus the influence / training imposed by humans slash artificially introduced circumstances.
     
  17. cluelusshusbund + Public Dilemma + Valued Senior Member

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    "We" are not the same same "human system" we were an instant ago... thru small biological steps we are constantly changin into "someone else"... we are a biological mass which is constantly bombarded wit influences... ie... "ther is no seperate or non biological identity that makes discoverys which determine how bodys behave.!!!

    Or do you thank that consciousness is separate from the body... or not biological.???
     
  18. C C Consular Corps - "the backbone of diplomacy" Valued Senior Member

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    Changes introduced to _x_ system by _z_ environment it encounters is still part of how that _x_ system / identity responds to that environment. You keep wanting something distant or general (the Big Bang, the past overall, the universe at large, some underlying algorithm regulating everything, etc) to be responsible for generating a human organism's decisions and actions. What's the point of putting an engine into an automobile if what preceded its construction, what surrounds the vehicle, and what it encounters along the way is instead responsible for making it run? What's the point of a human body having the interacting relationships of biochemistry, cells, tissues, and organs if that local body is not the source of its own decisions and actions. IOW, if it was instead some non-local Big Daddy that receives responsibility (the past overall, the universe at large, some underlying algorithm regulating everything, etc).

    The fact that [let's call him] Waldo experiences "moving" through time or visiting one moment after another would be the "given" that his identity is not confined to a single "now" -- it embraces or extends through the changes. It covers everything till the moment when everything becomes absent for good (or perhaps when a brain-dead body dies if the other occurs permanently beforehand).

    It doesn't matter whether the "past" created Waldo's initial state (zygote, fetus, or whatever qualifies) or it sprang into existence by magic (with life-supporting accessories). Either way, once Waldo's initial operating pattern is introduced to a specific "future" and the obstacles featured in it, the developing RESULTS are how Waldo's specific system responds and develops to that specific future: "What will Waldo do, what will this particular working organization do?" After coming into being, the responsibility for what Waldo does / becomes in response to _z_ is his, not either a "long prior history" which outputted him or a quantum fluctuation that instantly produced him.

    "But why did he have to be Waldo? What if Waldo was someone else, what if he hadn't been generated with that initial, particular operationing scheme?" Such is not applicable since accordingly Waldo would not exist, it would be a different identity at the starting line.
     
  19. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    What happens to moral agency and responsibility if all of our actions are rooted in unwilled nonconscious processes of the brain? Is the fireman who saved three kids from a burning apt less of a hero? Is the serial killer who raped and tortured 18 women no longer guilty? It seems to me that if willing is an illusion, then morality itself must be an illusion as well. Are we prepared to accept such a consequence? A world where we are all automata inexorably driven by meaningless unalterable firings of brain synapses?
     
  20. cluelusshusbund + Public Dilemma + Valued Senior Member

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    You accept cause an effect... but its as if the continuous chain of cause an effect is broken when humans become involved... an thats why i woud like to clear up:::
    Do you thank consciousness is somethin other than purely biological.???
     
  21. cluelusshusbund + Public Dilemma + Valued Senior Member

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    I thank morals woud improve... such as people in prison bein treeted more humanly.!!!

    Its the system i grew up wit an thers currently no beter system available so i have no prollem wit rewardin the fireman an incarceratian the rapist... an i dont thank that morality is anythang more than rules made up by humans to help make society the way we want it to be.!!!

    Eh... why not... works for me.!!!
     
  22. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    So you accept that we have moral culpability for our actions but at the same time believe we are all just acting out uncontrollable synaptic firings? Isn't that abit cognitively dissonant? Like believing something is true and not true at the same time?
     
  23. cluelusshusbund + Public Dilemma + Valued Senior Member

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    Like other people i have my own moral code... an i live my life as if i have free will but i realize that im nuthin more than a biological machine... an if thats cognitively dissonant im guilty as charged

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