World trade centre collapse, 9/11 conspiracy

Discussion in 'Conspiracies' started by someguy1, Nov 4, 2017.

  1. Q-reeus Valued Senior Member

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    3,486

    One of many such vids still not banned via constant clamoring for censorship by the anti-Twoofer zealots, that demolishes the absurd shit you are being pumped with here Alex.
     
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  3. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 70 years old Valued Senior Member

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    We they got it

    That's what I think

    Yes

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
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  5. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    I made it half way thru the vid and it changed to other vids all on the matter we discuss.

    Thanks for taking time to provide the link.

    I have seen now so many I would be surprised if I have missed any☺

    I think the likely hood of three buildings collapsing from fire damage in one day when none have collapsed for that reason in the past is difficult to get past.

    The ordered collapse of all buildings is hard to get past.

    The reports of molten iron is hard to get past and explainations that it was merely something other hard to get past.

    The neat cut in a beam in the rubble is hard to get past.

    Explaining the flash before impact and the cylinder on the bottom of the plane is hard to get past.

    The rate of fall is hard to get past.

    The claim of folk who should know about plane control that they could not replicate a "hit" in a simulator is hard to get past.

    Rushing the remains away is hard to get past.

    I think folk who dismiss all that is out there as outta hand simply can not bring themselves to even consider what actually is more than reasonable to presume when everything is considered.

    To me its like theists who simply can not review reasons why there could be no God as for them considering the most likely reality is a reality they can only reject.

    I have no doubt at the levels of power us mere mortals can not comprehend the games are well beyond anything we can imagine.

    History tells us at the top anything goes.

    All is fair in love and war they say.

    Read the Art of War and tell yourself that stuff proposed therein is ignored by those in power.

    The whole thing smacks of a game that ordinary folk would say could not happen and as ordinary folk will seek a reasonable and acceptable explaination and perhaps failing to realise at the top it must be cruel.

    So now that I have not joined those who cant believe those in control may not be guided by the same principles as ordinary folk I will be called a nutter..not to go with what the media tells us to believe can only have that result..I accept that.... but to Dave and Billvon and others I remind you that I have the right to believe what I choose and I say that its not unreasonable to consider that the mission impossible series of old is a reflection of a mentality that belongs to folk who use such an approach in reality.

    But at the end of the day I know nothing and I am just one of the mob who is told this or that and have little understanding of who is manipulating my thoughts or why.

    And those who really pull the strings and have us blaming this group or that family I expect if they really exist will never be known to us...aliens I expect☺

    Thanks to all for your input.

    And my advice is to all ...just take the time to consider what "the other side" believes and why they have embrassed all they believe and further to realise assembled facts to support your belief will be unlikely to change the belief of someone who thinks the opposite.

    No doubt everything is just part of Gods plan☺.

    To important things now.. my photo did not turn out..It just did not work out....thats all I actually care about.
    Alex
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2018
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  7. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    So, you don't think that being hit by airplanes changes the odds of collapsing buildings at all?

    How was it 'ordered'? What would unordered look like, by contrast?

    What does molten iron look like when coming out of a 100-story tall building burning from jet fuel?
    Is it significantly different from, say, molten aluminum to the eye of the layperson fleeing for their life?
    What do you have to compare it to?

    Failing beams must always look like - what - splintered wood?

    Is this in contrast to all the other instances of 100-story buildings being felled by commercial planes in the middle of downtown Manhattan, with toxic and burning substances amongst 8 million citizens - and the very real possibility that the attacks aren't over?

    It sounds like previous incidents like this. It is literally unprecedented. Throw all your expectations out the window. Nothing that happened has happened before.
     
  8. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Yes of course Dave in respect of the buildings hit by planes.

    But as I understand it, the claim is basically that it was the fire that weakened the structures.

    I think the buildings were supposed to be able to absorb an impact of a plane and so the fire was seen as the cause as it softened the steel.

    And it seems the fires were not that big at deal at the start ... obviously these buildings could be the first but it is odd which is not unreasonable to conclude.

    It may be a first ...well it was...that is what is odd.

    They all came down in an orderly fashion ... neat not falling to one side or the other...not stopping part way down...if you look on utube you can see many examples of buildings not collapsing in an orderly fashion...is it not reasonable to expect (a) a building could fall to one side. (b) the fall could stop at some point (c) the collapse could follow a hesitant course (d) at various stages the collapse slowed due to resistence.

    Any of the above would leave one able to say that it was not orderly...

    Possibly like what the "water fall" of bright material looked like you see clearly in the various videos.

    That is all I have seen.

    It seems like molten iron (or steel) to me.

    It looks the colour you would expect from iron but as I said it could be plastic but I doubt it could be alluminium as the colour would be different...

    The molten alluminoum that I have seen looks like mercury..most distinctive.

    But I have not seen what witnesses say they saw down the bottom calling it molten steel...there are a number of those accounts.

    They may have seen alluminium but alluminium probably would solidify before it made it all the way down...Thats just guessing I know but I expect an expert would say similar...molten iron I think stays molten longer...but I guess.

    The answer will be out there but I am not trying to prove a point and accept that my understanding of molten metal is limited to playing around with a home made forge.

    Eyewitnesses are unreliable and more so under stress but I think I could tell the difference by eye...and you could think that the various firemen who provided eye witness accounts could well have seen both melted iron and melted alluminium in their time spent attending fires.

    But the thing is it seems their accounts were not considered or was their reasons for saying molten iron as oppossed to molten alluminium considered nor their reason to call it molten iron when given we have burning alluminium planes anyones expectation would be that anything molten must be alluminium.

    Plane crashes its burning so what I see must be molten alluminium...wouldnt you expect folk to be reaching for a molten alluminium explanation rather than molten iron...why would you even think molten iron in the circumstances...and we are dealing with firemen who no doubt have seen both and expecting molten alluminium and not molten iron.

    So dismissing the eyewitnesses seems most odd.

    As I said many of the witnesses were firemen...not at all lay people in this area...dont you think a fireman may have seen molten stuff in his fires and be able to tell alluminium from iron.

    I think they would but againt no one seems to have asked them nor nailed down that it was steel or alluminium..that is odd dont you think?

    Sure...you are kidding I know but take the time to look at the beams that show a straight cut with not any sign of a twist at all...they look like they have been cut with an oxy cut welder ...they do just look different to a failure thru heat and buckling.
    Please have a look and tell me how you interprete such a straight cut.

    Steel does not break like that ask an expert...those beams with straight cuts in no way support the notion of failure due to heat..heck if they are hot you would see a twist...something.

    Now I am not an expert but I bet you can not find an expert who would say that straight cut is at all consistent with failure due to heat..

    But who knows they say truth is stranger than fiction so maybe under heat stress steel beams shear neatly.

    So you try and make me sound stupid.

    Is it stupid to put the wreckage of a plan crash in a place where engineers can look at all of it and work out the failures?

    Is it stupid to propose that the wreckage of the first three buildings to have collapsed as a result of impact or fire be set aside firstly to know more about what failed and why and to be placed in a position to make recommendations for future buildings so as to help prevent future collapse in such circumstances...

    I do think few would consider keeping the wreckage stupid or unproductive.

    I think most folk would say selling it to China was stupid and smackes of cover up.

    I dont know we could take a poll but looking at the wreckage of a crashed plan is not stupid and by extention looking at what was left after the disaster would have been informative...noy stupid at all.

    Absolutely...and probably one expectation to throw out is that poorly trained folk could control a plane and hit a target when travelling at a speed where the wings could fall off when folk who fly planes as a life long profession can not do so even after many attempts in state of the art flight simulators.

    I once rejected all the stuff you see on the various truther sites but I realised that I was no better than Jan ...unable to just look at what is being presented before I reject it and if you take the time to look I think you will find stuff that is very difficult to get past.

    If all the evidence was presented it may not reach the level required for a criminal matter..proof beyond reasonable doubt...but if a civil matter..proof that a reasonable man could accept I think a civil standard would be met.

    Dave have you looked at any video?

    Alex
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2018
  9. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    16,759
    All three tilted as they came down.
    The physics would not allow a damaged building to stop the hundreds of tons of debris falling onto the next floor - which then became even more debris for the next floor etc.
    Not with a building that size, no. The best the remaining floors could do was slow the collapse (which they did.)
    What color would it be?
    If a little of it was in freefall in open air? Probably. If tons of it fell as a mass? Definitely not.
    The vast majority of structure fires don't melt either one.
    Given that none of those firefighters have ever had to put out a fire from an airliner that ran into a building - that was probably not the first thing on their minds.
    Because someone said "is that molten iron?" and they thought "oh, of course."

    If you see a large object fall to the ground far away, and someone says "did you see the plane crash?" most people will say "Yes! I was wondering what that was."
    I have no doubt they saw molten metal and accurately conveyed that.
    Again, if they regularly put out fires caused by airliners crashing into buildings, it would be reasonable to expect that they've seen both and can tell them apart. If not - then they'd just be guessing.

    I know several firefighters from New York, including a precinct chief. They are very good at what they do. None of them could tell different kinds of molten metal apart. (Neither could you or I.)
    Not odd at all. It has been nailed down. MIT, NIST and FEMA have all looked into it and determined it is molten aluminum.
    Well, OK. So there are two possibilities:

    1) They were cut by a crew with acetylene torches
    2) They sheared when tons of debris fell on them at high speed

    Occam's Razor would seem to apply.
    Depends on where it is and what it is.

    A plane crash in an open field? Probably makes sense to keep it in place and take at least a good long look at it.

    Hundreds of tons of debris paralyzing a city? Probably doesn't make sense to leave it there.
    It's stupid to do that for very long, yes. The wreckage was spread out over many, many blocks and was paralyzing Manhattan. Traffic could not get through. Crews could not get in to restore essential services. Ambulances could not get in to assist people with medical emergencies. Water systems (for fire control and domestic water) could not be repaired. It was imperative to get that cleaned up as soon as the analysis was done.
    Keeping it in place for a long time would have been stupid, irresponsible and dangerous. It would have cost a lot of lives.
    China (and several other recycling outfits) came and carted it all away for us - AND paid us for it. It was a pretty good deal for us. And after all that steel and concrete had been moved, it was just a disorganized pile of debris. Most of the forensic value had been lost.

    Consider what you are asking for here. That debris would have covered a hundred acres or so to a depth of about six feet. Heck, in the aftermath of the collapse, there were piles over a hundred feet high. Where are you going to find hundreds of acres in Manhattan? And how useful is it to stand on top of a six foot deep plain of debris and wonder what's underneath?

    It would be great if you had a thousand acres or so and could spread it all out so you could see it all. Again - this is Manhattan we are talking about here.
    They are lying to you. Even inexperienced pilots can hit a 20 foot wide runway 100 times out of 100. I've got only ~300 hours of flight time and I've had no problem doing that at night, in bad weather and when it's windy. Given the training these guys had (in simulators that very accurately simulated the plane) it would not have been a challenge. They were trying to hit a 200 foot wide building, not a 20 foot wide runway.

    And even then the second plane almost missed - it clipped the corner. Another 10 feet off and the building would likely have survived.
     
  10. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    13,702
    That was not my intent at all.

    If I thought you asserted something and neglected some important circumstances about it, surely I should point them out?

    Of course I have.
    With a skeptical eye, as one should.

    This isn't a fifty-fifty scenario. It is first important to start with the fact that a conspiracy is the more implausible scenario by far. It has the burden of proof. And it just doesn't meet it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2018
  11. Q-reeus Valued Senior Member

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    3,486
    Alex, you have done well with most of your #163 and I congratulate you for making a stand - of sorts. Stll, you have to appreciate that not every Twoofer claim out there in YouTube land is accurate or even sincere. Get used to a confused scene where sorting truth from either innocent error or outright deceit is an existential fact of life. It's been shown many 'Twoofers' are actually paid shills working for Israel or the CIA. Intentionally muddying the waters with either ludicrous claims e.g. 'holographic planes', Judy Woods 'dustification death rays from space', or 'Jew baiting' 'antiSemitic' 'hate speech' over-the-top rants, etc. The intention being to divide and conquer the Twoofer movement, and simultaneously provide pretexts for ramped up draconian censorship.'Linkage' is the key word here. Which is not to say lame-brained Twoofers with genuine intent don't shoot themselves in the foot.

    So, regarding that afaik single photoghaphic record of the angled cut (what I highlighted in red):
    Some claim it's evidence of typically used thermite/thermate cutting technique. Which claim of being typical is certainly true.
    Others claim, no silly Twoofers, that's the result of an oxy-acetylene cutting torch used by a cleanup crew.

    It doesn't matter which account there is true. The overall picture, from well before to well after 9-11 (unending Wars on of Terror), has only one coherent explanation. This will be iirc, my fourth posting (3rd being in #131 here):
    https://wikispooks.com/wiki/9-11/Israel_did_it
    NO-ONE has had the balls to even try and challenge the contents there. That meticulous analysis alone, independent of ANY forensic evidence re 9-11 events, leaves no room for doubt who are the true masterminds and evil beneficiaries of that long-in-advance-planned 'catalytic event', that 'new Pearl Harbor'. It's both a Sacred Cow and The Elephant In The Room. That nearly everyone chooses to ignore. Out of craven FEAR. That or an inculcated from birth, myopic, fierce tribal loyalty.
     
  12. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    13,702
    Indeed.

    Keep that in mind Alex.

    Emotional rhetoric is the opposite of truth-seeking.
     
  13. Q-reeus Valued Senior Member

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    How true. Correct application of that truism is all important. Want to be the first to tackle the contents of that linked to in #168? Made the same invite to you back in #131.
    My easy-to-make prediction: you will pass as usual. As everyone else here has. FEAR.
     
  14. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Hi Billvon.
    Nice post I will argue for the sake of it but my heart is not in it☺

    So this tilt you noticed how much would you call it in degrees 45? or 4.5.
    I have seen a vid showing the physics indicates the gravitional energy is insufficient to produce what we observed.
    Are you suggesting your commentary should be regarded as having more authority than a video that is on the net☺
    It looked like free fall to me...and if gravity is equivalent to acceleration why didnt they speed up?
    Seriously you could expect the fall not to be as fast.
    The colour of the stuff you see coming out of the building.
    We both work with no numbers.
    There is no way to say what the molten metal was unless you test it or if I was there to tell☺
    Alluminium melts all the time...In my lose everything fire there was heaps of alluminium stuff melted.
    I put a alluminium fire gaurd on my open fire and part of it melted due to radiatent heat...great fire.

    I have blown the bottom out of a steel ladle in a forge and all I used was wood and a blower.

    Sure but why would they not have said is yhat molten alluminium..you would think that would be a normal first choice.
    I bet I could.
    Thinking it odd is subjective...you may not think it odd but others may.
    Yes no sign of distortion suggests a cut☺
    Sure move it but keep it.
    Are you suggesting that folk I dont know would make a video and lie to me...why.
    The thing those vids claim is at the speed no one could control a plane clearly suggesting a top secret military aircraft controlled by remote control with a built in guidance system programed to hit the offices containing stuff that they wanted to destroy☺


    Overall I dont know what to believe other than if its possible for humans to do such a terrible thing as crash those planes it tells me there could be humans just as evil who could do anything at all to push their game.
    I dont know, I dont need to know.

    Where is the original poster I am not doing his job for him..I am going back to my processing.

    Thanks to all for your respecti e contribution.
    Alex
     
  15. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    13,702
    Of course it's an easy prediction. You are deliberately evoking it.

    You're going off on tangents about politics and evil, engaging in emotional manipulation and using scare-words.

    In short, you're acting like a nutter acts. How is anyone supposed to take you seriously? Why would anyone follow any links you provide? You're showing us what kind of nuttery we should expect to find there.

    Why would I do something that someone is yelling at me to do? This is not how discussion works.
     
  16. Q-reeus Valued Senior Member

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    He he. Thanks for confirming my easy-to-make-prediction. And the meticulously detailed, heavily referenced claims re https://wikispooks.com/wiki/9-11/Israel_did_it
    (that a fifth posting from me at SF) remain totally unchallenged. Despite your own 'emotional manipulation' attempts, best you or anyone else here has done is to ignore. Out of FEAR.
     
  17. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Thank you.
    If all you believe is correct I have probably said too much☺.
    Even if I accept the worst case senerio it does not worry me.
    There is nothing that I could do to change a thing you see.
    And I would have to treat most of my family as the enemy and myself if I am correct about most of my ancestors.
    I know what goes on at just a street level in terms of deception and evil so I imagine it just gets worse as the game gets bigger.
    I would not expect less
    Well be a realist.

    You have your christians who can only pick one side.

    Whats that number?

    And why would folk not fear people who can do all you say.

    I dont like the wars but that is the way it is...what can you do.

    There will be a line up of interests to justify war but its all just about taking something from someone else and pretending that there is a wonderful moral reason.

    A weapons of mass destruction call by a group of aggressors who held the monopoly on same says it all...
    The world is not fair just be happy you are on the side who holds the power.

    Alex
     
  18. Q-reeus Valued Senior Member

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    Not directly it's true. But there is something of worth - sharing. The internet, while yet still free to some degree, provides an avenue for sharing insights. It's only fair though to warn you that such sharing - by any currently available means - is very likely monitored by the traditional enemies of freedom of speech and thence of thought:
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/11/nsa-americans-personal-data-israel-documents
    Indeed. All you have to do is StartPage (or Google if privacy is of no concern) search for 'Samson Option' or 'Martin Creveld speech on 'taking the world down with us'. Well, a direct link to that last one:
    http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/israel/destroycaps.html
    Geeez. Certified nuke-free 'rogue state' Iran has NEVER issued anything remotely close to such a brazen claim. Yet Iran, not Israel, is the supposed 'pariah terrorist state'. Go figure.
    That unfortunately is a tangled and highly debatable claim Alex. Still, when you gaze at the stars again, be comforted that they shall outlast every human misadventure. Ta da!
     
  19. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    One does enjoy the reality of realising we are not even a speck in time or space.

    I have seen the stuff you mention I bet I know much more than you think I know about all this stuff.


    A guy on the astronomy forum I attend posted a list a long list☺ long ago.

    He is a Jew who hates Zionists and its a thing with him.


    Well of course Iran is the enemy.

    They are however extraordinarily peaceful it seems.
    I did hear something recently that even under attack Iran did not fight back basically because of the religious beliefs that they see as a call to be peaceful.

    I can understand the way Israel appears over the top.

    It would seem Jews have had to take a fair bit of abuse through history and so perhaps they have resolved not to take it anymore.

    Maybe its an over compensation in the view of some but they believe they are Gods choosen people and that certain land belongs to them.


    And why wouldnt they ... if that is what you are taught for thousands of years.

    And then the christians must finally support them even though christians have been killing them since forever.

    So even if you could get your message to every American, which you never could, they must accept their God is the same...where was JC born again?

    So the bulk of your population believe in the same God really ... sure there is infigthing between church of england, catholics and jews but they will all ride off to the Crusades together to attack those Muslims who ironically for most purposes believe in the same original God.

    When I look out there I wonder how they do it on other planets and stop worrying about how it goes here.

    Alex
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2018
  20. Q-reeus Valued Senior Member

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    Alex I agree with much you say there in #176 but likewise could take exception to certain of your historical perspectives. Responding to that in detail would result in a train-wreck diversion.
    I think we agree that the Official 9-11 Conspiracy Theory is severely defective to say the least. Maybe best to leave it a that. Cheers.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2018
  21. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    16,759
    The north tower started leaning a few degrees (call it 3) at 10:20am. Helicopters reported the tilt increasing with time. At 10:28 the final collapse began. The antenna on the top of the building was lost to sight quickly, but before disappearing it was tilting about 10 degrees.
    Well, you can do the math. Each tower weighed about half a million tons. So say 1/3 of that (150,000 tons) starts accelerating downwards due to the failure of supports on one floor. It falls about 12 feet (the height of one floor) and then comes to a stop within an inch once it hits the floor below it. What is the force on the floor it hits?
    ?? It was close to freefall. The degree it was _not_ freefall is due to the resistance of each floor below the upper segment. They did speed up as they fell.
    It was not as fast as freefall. It was close, but the energy required to demolish each successive floor required some energy.
    Sort of a circular definition, don't you think?
    Exactly.
    OK. I don't think you could, but if you have a strong belief on that topic, I won't be able to talk you out of it.
    Same reason people make videos lying to you about the sham-WOW, the "fake" Apollo moon landing, the "second shooter" theory, the flat Earth theory etc etc. People like conspiracies; it makes them feel special, like they have hidden knowledge that the rest of the 'sheep' don't have.
    Yep. And yet I can hit a 20 foot wide runway in bad weather with no autopilot and no one helping me.
    Yep. There are people who gassed thousands of men, women and children and shoveled their bodies into ovens because they believed they were "right" and were serving a greater good. There's no limit to how evil people can be.
     
  22. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    You should so James can create a new thread☺.
    Only where it does not agree with my interpretation☺.

    Perhaps the truther stuff was started to take focus away from the real issue which must be...How could it happen (heads should roll in the Intelligence depts) and why not one of the planes were intercepted (heads should roll in the military).
    The real positive to take from the truther movement is they get to have their say and I doubt if you would get that opportunity in many other countries.
    Great talking with you as always and I look forward to all your posts in the science sections which I hope to see in the future.
    Alex
     
  23. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Yes I noticed a small tilt.
    Yes of course it is☺
    No belief I hold is so strong that I am not prepared to change it.
    Perhaps regard most of what I say as an impression.
    I have seen molten alluminium but in truth never seen molten steel along side.
    I know you are right.
    The need of recognition is what drives so many folk.
    I know I am special and try and keep it hidden☺
    Yes but can you hit a big building with a big jet...I bet you have not even tried☺.

    I just can not understand how people can do that.
    That happened only a gew years before I was born...its not like it was way back in history...and how many of those folk doing the unthinkable were christians...thats what I dont get.
    Heck I wont hurt a fly...I catch a mozzie in my cupped hands and release it outside .. I feel I arrived a couple of thousand years too early on this planet.

    Nice talking with you Billvon and thank you for taking the time to make your interesting posts.

    Please by careful when flying as so much can go wrong...I will not fly I can not.
    Alex
     

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