World trade centre collapse, 9/11 conspiracy

Discussion in 'Conspiracies' started by someguy1, Nov 4, 2017.

  1. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    https://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/11...qU3wIVwgorCh0CtwrQEAAYASAAEgLCKvD_BwE#feature
    With the tenth anniversary of the 9/11 attacks upon us, a group of 9/11 conspiracists are working hard to publicize their claims of scientific validity to the conjecture that the World Trade Center buildings were destroyed through controlled demolition. The architect Richard Gage is the founder of the nonprofit organization Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth, which focuses on the controlled demolition theory. So outraged was I by the Bush administration’s justification for the war in Iraq based on faulty WMD intelligence information that I initially thought that Gage might be on to something, until I examined his science carefully and engaged him in a spirited debate on March 6, 2011 in front of 250 people in Boulder, Colorado. (Listen to the debate audio.) The video of that debate is not being released (his own website admitted that twice as many people changed their minds in my direction as his during the debate), so I created 20 short videos on YouTube that present detailed rebuttals of each of Gage’s claims.

    What follows is a brief summary of Gage’s points and my rebuttals to them.
     
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  3. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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  5. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    https://www.psychologytoday.com/int.../why-do-people-believe-in-conspiracy-theories
    extracts:
    Likewise, conspiracy theories can give their believers a sense of control and security. This is especially true when the alternative account feels threatening
    . For example, if global temperatures are rising catastrophically due to human activity, then I’ll have to make painful changes to my comfortable lifestyle. But if pundits and politicians assure me that global warming is a hoax, then I can maintain my current way of living. This kind of motivated reasoning is an important component in conspiracy theory beliefs.

    The desire to maintain a positive self-image. Research shows that people who feel socially marginalized are more likely to believe in conspiracy theories.

    Furthermore, his research into conspiracy theories has given him a sense that he is the holder of privileged knowledge. Most people who believe global warming is real or that vaccines are safe don’t do so because they understand the science. Rather, they trust the experts. And so, when Uncle Joe starts trotting out all the “evidence” against global warming, it can be difficult to make a reasonable counterargument. All you’ve got is the feeling that the conspiracy theory seems too complicated to be true, but from Uncle Joe’s perspective, it’s clear he knows more about the subject than you do.
     
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  7. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    You better believe it☺
    Alex
     
  8. Q-reeus Valued Senior Member

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  9. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    I dont think Q-reeus has a monopoly on such an approach...when it comes down to it most folk want everyone to believe what they believe and of course if you dont go with them it is basically saying that they are wrong.
    Nothing produces a attack faster than saying to someone that they are wrong...
    Me (excluding religion) am always 50% right and 50% wrong because I have no problem entertaining that until you can personally inspect the inside of the box you can not correctly make the call that the cat is dead or not.
    Everyones view is thru a filter of their belief and facts are accepted or rejected on that basis.

    Q-reeus has a filter and you also...most folk have a filter.

    I dont believe anything or anyone in absolute terms to be honest...

    Where humans are involved the outrageous becomes possible ... history tells us that over and over...

    Everyone wants me to see the matter their way and I doubt if anyone really has understood what I have said.
    I say no 7 looks like a demo with no observation past what I saw...so those who think its an inside job think great he is with us and those who go with the official version want to tell me all the reasons why it was not a demo...read my lips..all I say is it looks like a demo...to me.
    And it does.
    The arguement should be it looks like it or not...anyone who says it does not look like a demo are not being honest with themselves...

    I put it to anyone here...
    Does no 7 look like a demo or not...and if you hold a view that it looks like a building falling due to fire...that is your opinion to which you are entitled.

    Anyways I like you paddoboy and I like Q-reeus and I like MR DMO Jan and River (even the god may he bless himself) and wont change my view because any disagree with me ( how anyone could I dont know☺)
    Sorry I am rambling due to not getting any sleep...astrophotography does that).
    I do think using the event to go to war was over the top...the attack was not from a government...on the official account it was a small group.
    But like any problem folk use it to push their barrow and barrow sales are way up due to the disaster.
    Have a great day I have to get some sleep.
    Alex
     
  10. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    22,846

    He has done nothing more then just as I have said...taken the gaps in the official report, and fill it in with his own conspiracy god...you know, they do the same in science. It's called the god of the gaps.
    The official version stands as justifiably and observationaly what took place, over the larger picture...all of the conspiracy points are invalidated and explained away...some smaller incidentals may be different but the overall picture is as reported. here's another report on this perceived nonsensical conspiracy......

    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/d...sts-tackled-conspiracy-theories/#.XA7H11QzY2w
     
  11. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    It all looked like planned demolition, but irrespective, all of it has been explained, and obviously this explanation only really necessary, because of the kooks out there, that shout conspiracy. Who amongst us is expert in picking out a purposely demolition as opposed to planes full of jet fuel flying at 600kph into two/three buildings? Of course even among the experts that are shouting controlled demo, are they really expert? Check all my links.
    And think about this, if any governmental agency, or orginization did conspire to fly four planes into centers of American might and power, killing 3000 of its own citizens, why would they not kill a few more of these so called conspirators/know alls that are supposedly revealing their secret to the world? It's laughable to even entertain Alex.
    The media and press are known for sensationalism...they all perform it, even some science mags, and obviously they see sales in printing this conspiracy nonsense for all the gullibles and impressionables out there.
    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/d...sts-tackled-conspiracy-theories/#.XA7H11QzY2w
     
  12. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Sure it is, and just as sure is the fact that something of this scale and with regards to controlled demolition, could not be logically pulled off, and again it is explained away in one of my links.
    TIP: In a 100 years from now, in 200 years from now, or a 1000 years from now, the official version will still be seen as history, although slight incidental changes may be different.The overall picture...four planes, a gang of nuts, training over 2 years, unlimited finance, flying into two towers and the Pentagon, No prior American knowledge, no controlled demo, just simply pure evil.
     
  13. Q-reeus Valued Senior Member

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    In the brief time between my posting #285, and predictable response in #287, it would have been utterly impossible to have read, let alone digested, more than a tiny fraction of the 235 pages in that thorough article. Hence above quoted is necessarily pure negative assertion as reflex action.
     
  14. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    I don't need to read it all my friend....Just like Fat Freddy's antics, you post a load of self opinionated crap from people that probably have an agenda and prefer that over the official report. Like I said, I'll go to bed tonight, confident I will wake up with the official report still the accepted cause and probably still hear the conspiracy nuts still shouting and screaming in the distance. It will stay that way because nothing will have come close to invalidating it. Like Fat Fred, you'll have to live with your gullibility.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2018
  15. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    I am so tired I cant sleep.

    What do you mean?

    It does look like a demo or
    It does not look like a demo?

    I did not understand sorry.

    Surely it would not take too much one or two charges may do it?

    It would not take much to bring down a building you would think.

    Just one beam destroyed and down it would come ... wouldnt it?

    I have no doubt.

    Even now it is seen as history.

    But it has been said those who hold power get to write the history.

    Ceasar was a great general not a slave trader and all he did was for the glory of Rome...sure there is history and there is history.

    Sorry to but in... but not to look at the claims etc does not show any balance but moreover leaves you open to the same critism you level at others.

    How can you dismiss matters you dont know about and say you have given a fair judgement?

    If the claims of an inside job have merit how would you know if you wont even look at the claims.

    The claim is a cover up has taken place and if that is the case those involved in a cover up would be entirely dependant on folk simply dismissing inside job claims with no investigation on their part and content to believe what they have been told... you could think.

    Have you even looked at no 7 collapse?

    Have you looked at the no 7 vid recently or just say well I dont need to...I am not trying to convert you but cause you to perhaps realise you are doing the same as the God mob basically and you are better than that.

    Your throwing off errodes your position and frankly your ability to argue logically and rationally is rather impressive so I fail to see why you resort to a position usually adopted by the folk we both love to hate, well not hate for me really I like Jan for example, but I refer to the irrational folk who claim God did it and dismiss looking at the science.

    You are doing the same.
    Anyways it would take bugger all to bring down no 7 ...what do you think..you..not a link your opinion please...I respect you not some stranger on the net making a vid.
    Alex
     
  16. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    I meant that in the early part of the conspiracy brigade nonsense, all of the buildings WT1, WT2 and 7 were seen as controlled demolition. And yes all three could have been mistaken for that. Except of course of the observational evidence pointing elsewhere.

    I don't know, I'm no expert, but I am not surprised that fully fuel loaded jet air craft going at probably more then 600kph, would do considerable damage.
    Your remark about those holding power may have some limited truth about it, but have you forgotten, we also have these conspiracy crusaders claiming the holocaust never happened.

    I've seen these nuts going from one point to another to another, to another, grabbing whatever they see as a gap in the official account. This is just a continuation of that bullshit I'm sorry to say Alex, and I'm not wasting my time indulging their fantasies. The official account gives a reasonably accurate overall picture, and any of the accusations thrown by these nuts are just so unlikely as to be treated with contempt. A great man once said, in my opinion, probably the greatest educator of our time, "Ëxtraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" And these conspiracy crusaders, have not even come close.
    The position I'm resorting to, is based on the same old same old nonsense by these crusaders, based on insignificant gaps in the official version...similar to the anti GR and anti mainstream brigade, that see the need to simply latch on to anything that they may view [no matter how insignificant] to claim GR is invalidated, while ignoring the mountain load of evidence that does support it, and the incredible validated predictions they are still making.
    No, its not in the least the same thing. We have no evidence for god, in fact the whole concept is unscientific...We have plenty of evidence for the BB, GR, etc...we have no credible evidence that contradicts the official version of 9/11 looking at the large picture. If they did have any evidence, it would be out! big news! printed across every paper in the world! Oh wait? according to the conspiracy nuts the media is also in it.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    How many chances are we to give this mob? Are you critical of NASA for ignoring basically the faked Moon landing nuts? They have been legitimately dismissed already so why give them more publicity and fuel for their ego?
    Bugger all to bring 7 down I agree....Like a 110 story building virtually collapsing nearly on top of it, with beams and concrete thrown about like confetti.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2018
  17. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    In general, no. It takes a lot of damage to bring down a building. There's redundancy built in.
    I have, in great detail.

    If it had been a planned demolition, it would have gone all at once - not slowly, over several hours. It would have looked fine and then - boom! - no more building.
     
  18. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Nice post by the way I certainly hope not your last here.

    I can understand folk seizing on a small aspect of a theory and trying to invalidate it...particularly GR.
    First of all the beauty of science means if you open one small hole the whole lot comes down.

    Second if you are the one to beat GR that means you are the man.

    Thats why folk focus on GR firstly and just a small aspect.

    And to a certain extent they contribute to it being the best because notwithstanding all who line up to bring it down that only in effect proves how good it is.

    Anyways any better theory you would think have to incorporate GR.

    A quantum theory wont even effect GR in fact I expect it will rely upon GR...I dont really know so that is a guess.
    Well that somewhat would prove my point..
    If the Nazi mob won what do you think their history would be.
    I thought holocaust deniers were a thing of the past.. at least that stuff does not come across my desk.
    Not that it would get far given most of my relations ancestory.
    I was going to keep that secret but you know...well ok just dont tell any more people☺
    Absolutely. They should fly them up there for an inspection and put the matter to rest.
    Yes you would think it could survive that☺

    Alex
     
  19. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    I would have thought so thats why it seemed strange that fire brought it down but I guess it must have been debris given the collapse was at the bottom.
    Well I guess thats the problem...all the vids I have seen shows it standing with no apparent problems and then it falls real fast with nothing appearing to move a great deal all crumplying from the bottom no tilt just straight down just like many demos.

    And the owner did say " pull it" and he did not sound like he meant pull the firemen out..They were out.

    I saw him talking about it and it was him he said so and it was not a fireman as you thought earlier.

    And the collapse was reported brfore it happened. You can see no 7 in the background.
    They claim a mistake truthers claim orcestration.


    And the rate of fall was calculated by a physist to be very very near free fall...by the eye no structual resistance...

    Dont you think folk could put that all together and think it sounds and looks fishy? That does not make their conspiracy valid but I certainly can see why folk convince themselves something was wrong.

    Alex
     
  20. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    I'm having a 3 day holiday from the other place, where this nonsense is not tolerated or discussed.
    My point is it won't be superseded or invalidated by any "would be's if they could be's"on some remote science forum....only by a professional scientific paper that has undergone the necessary peer review, as GR did....the same goes for 9/11 and the other nonsense they love to toss around to boost their failing egos.
    Well they would need to explain the disappearance of 6 million people. And of course no regime will last forever so yes, Even if that had happened [the Nazis winning the 2WW] the truth, the real truth can never be hidden for long. But that is totally different from this questionable lot, is it not?



    There's something about the obvious damage sustained in one of my links, particularly with the side facing one of the Towers.
     
  21. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    I know you mentioned that earlier...so I expect when your ban is over you will leave us again..now thats a pity because next week I planned a thread on why the big bang is probably wrong☺

    I know the sort of site you mean.
    I dont like them they seem up themselves ...probably are smart people, capable etc but I cant hack arrogance ...it is just uncalled for in my book.

    Of course thats stating the obvious.

    But that is no reason not to discuss science.

    I think the theory of inflation is nonsence and will say so... Can I say that or do I have to present a paper and have it peer reviewed.

    And in saying that I think its nonsence I dont expect anything to change...I do not see why the need to jump on anyone who has a different opinion....and remember this all anyone has except those at the coal face is an opinion.

    You have an opinion and form your opinion upon the work of specialists in their field...even leading scientists must rely upon the work of the leaders in a particular field...outside of a few specialists who do know what they are talking about it is mere opinion.

    But thats what humans do...for most folk they are a slave to their ego...I doubt few function without their ego guiding them as folk want to feel important and recognised... Is being human and having an ego wrong? If so do you suppress your ego?

    Do you recognise so much of what you do is ego driven? Your ego no doubt played a role in you deciding to leave here...your ego tells you that you belong at the other place umongst folk who perhaps hold a stance on science dictated by their egos.


    The only problem I see for conspiracy nuts is if they cause harm to the country or the government or our allies which most (if any at all) dont...they are citizens and I believe the bulk are genuinly concerned that treason is afoot.....you get some who believe in secret control and manipulation by our cultural leaders but that is just sour grapes...

    Like it or not we are all united by the one religion ...Anyways those folk have their egos and their beliefs to keep them confused rather than dangerous...they think there has been treason or crime ...they love their country and should not be treated as nuts because they love their country.

    And when its us and them dont you think that is nothing more than ego.

    We dont need us and them within our walls it can only be us.

    Thats the point...if they were in power they dont explain or they wont explain and anyone who raised the issue would disappear.

    After a spell they would be the most wonderful folk and saviours of mankind...and any horror at all would be described in a nice way to show those in power as wonderful.

    History tells us that over and over...

    I dont know about that.

    I think in Japan the folk dont have a clue of what their mob did to Australian prisoners.
    And they lost.

    Sorry to which questionable lot do you refer....in any event to bring the holocaust into the discussion or even GR seems odd to me...maybe you see more than I do...

    I dont doubt it sustained damage over and above the fire...if the official report said fire was responsible well that would tell you right away something is fishy because fire does not bring down buildings.


    Anyways I have enjoyed talking about all this as I find it interesting and often the best way to find out something is to have someone explain how they see it.
    I have Q-reeus input I have Daves I have Billvon and I have yours ...

    If you decide not to come back may I wish you and your love ones all the best for Christmas.

    Alex
     
  22. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    This is an interesting vid.
    And it sure does not look like what you would expect if a controlled demo.

    Alex
     
  23. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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