Women. Religion’s longest running victims.

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Greatest I am, Aug 9, 2014.

  1. Greatest I am Valued Senior Member

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    Women. Religion’s longest running victims.

    Here we are in civilized and enlightened societies and cultures in high tech times and we are not smart enough to recognize that the world will continue in strife as long as we men do not give women full equality as a minimum to what men should do towards the care of families.

    I hope you are astute enough to see this. If you do nothing then you know not what duty to your family should be. The women in your family deserve to be first class citizens.

    Men are maintaining God’s curse against women. He will rule over you.

    Men. Christians, Catholics and Muslims. Free your women. It’s time. Man up.

    Please.

    Regards
    DL
     
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  3. Arne Saknussemm trying to figure it all out Valued Senior Member

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    In what way are we "civilized and enlightened societies and cultures" if we are, what (?) oppressing women? I think that's what you mean but I can't understand: "men do not give women full equality as a minimum to what men should do towards the care of families". What do you mean exactly?

    How would you know how any of us treat the women in our families? I hope you're not making generalizations. Have you been peeking throught the kitchen curtains? And anyway, just what is it you would have us do?

    Are you mocking what you presume to be Christian and Muslim attitudes, or is this something you believe yourself?

    Same question as above: how do you propose we do this? And do you imagine even for a moment that billions of men are going to 'free their women' just because you asked us to in an obscure internet forum? Don't you think you're being just a little bit delusional?

    Excuse me, but may I suggest you ask Christian and Muslim women what they think of your grand plan? I won't give you my opinion, but I know many American, Australian and British women who chose to become Muslims because of the protection and security they felt it offered them as women. Moreover, in 'Christian' countries I know many more women that revel in being female and love things just as they are and who don't feel at all oppressed.

    Um. Okay, I will give you my opinion. I think you're just looking for a way to bash religious people and suck up to women at the same time. Maybe you'll meet a nice girl who agrees with you! That's it, isn't it?
     
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  5. Kittamaru Never cruel nor cowardly... Staff Member

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    Really Arne...?

    Okay, a few verses to spell it out:

    1 Corinthians 14:34-35 King James Version
    34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
    35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

    Colossians 3:18 King James Version
    Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.

    1 Peter 3:1-2 New Living Translation
    In the same way, you wives must accept the authority of your husbands. Then, even if some refuse to obey the Good News, your godly lives will speak to them without any words. They will be won over 2 by observing your pure and reverent lives.

    1 Timothy 2:9-15New Living Translation (NLT)
    9 And I want women to be modest in their appearance. They should wear decent and appropriate clothing and not draw attention to themselves by the way they fix their hair or by wearing gold or pearls or expensive clothes.
    10 For women who claim to be devoted to God should make themselves attractive by the good things they do.
    11 Women should learn quietly and submissively.
    12 I do not let women teach men or have authority over them. Let them listen quietly.
    13 For God made Adam first, and afterward he made Eve.
    14 And it was not Adam who was deceived by Satan. The woman was deceived, and sin was the result.
    15 But women will be saved through childbearing, assuming they continue to live in faith, love, holiness, and modesty.

    Qua'ran 2:282
    O you who have believed, when you contract a debt for a specified term, write it down. And let a scribe write [it] between you in justice. Let no scribe refuse to write as Allah has taught him. So let him write and let the one who has the obligation dictate. And let him fear Allah , his Lord, and not leave anything out of it. But if the one who has the obligation is of limited understanding or weak or unable to dictate himself, then let his guardian dictate in justice. And bring to witness two witnesses from among your men. And if there are not two men, then a man and two women from those whom you accept as witnesses - so that if one of the women errs, then the other can remind her.

    Qua'ran 4:34
    Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.

    Qua'ran 4:176
    They request from you a [legal] ruling. Say, " Allah gives you a ruling concerning one having neither descendants nor ascendants [as heirs]." If a man dies, leaving no child but [only] a sister, she will have half of what he left. And he inherits from her if she [dies and] has no child. But if there are two sisters [or more], they will have two-thirds of what he left. If there are both brothers and sisters, the male will have the share of two females. Allah makes clear to you [His law], lest you go astray. And Allah is Knowing of all things.

    There are plenty of other examples... but unfortunately, in most religious texts, it is made pretty clear:

    Women are inferior to Men.

    This is one of the reasons I align myself as a Modified Christian - this is one aspect of religion I cannot abide by
     
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  7. Arne Saknussemm trying to figure it all out Valued Senior Member

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    What, really, Kitt? These verses you quote spell what out? It's ironic that you, a Modified Christian (???) and the OP whatever he is seem to put more stock in scriptures than rank-and-file Christians do. (I won't speak for the Muslim men)

    Really, Kitt? What modern day men do you know that follow these verses to the letter? Isn't it your personal experience that women speak out plenty, and that husbands often, if not always, obey their wives? Or at least hear them out?

    If quoting Bible verses is the game, then how about:

    Isn't much of the purpose of The Law as handed down in The Old Testament to protect women and ensure their rights and security? What is the point of holy matrimony if not to uphold and respect women and their children?

    Surely it wasn't players who came up with matrimony.
     
  8. Kittamaru Never cruel nor cowardly... Staff Member

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    What modern day men follow these verses to the letter?

    How about:
    US Population : 318,000,000 (according to 2010 US Census)
    Orthodox Jews (estimated 400,000 US populace according to 2014 census)
    Conservative Jews (estimated 2,800,000 US populace according to 2014 census)
    Orthodox Christian (estimated 1,044,000 US populace according to 2010 census)
    Total of the above three groups - 4,244,000

    Yeah, those are not some small drop in the bucket... those three groups come to about 1.3% of the total US population.... and remember, sheer numbers don't always mean anything... look at groups like the Westborough Baptist Jackasses... er... Church. Then you have the Arizona Fundamentalist Church of Latter Day Saints, which FORCES girls into marriages with people many years older than they are, often with several people... all in the name of "God"...
     
  9. Arne Saknussemm trying to figure it all out Valued Senior Member

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    What's the good of throwing statistics at me? You have overlooked my key question: What modern day men do you know that follow these verses to the letter? Isn't it your personal experience that women speak out plenty, and that husbands often, if not always, obey their wives? Or at least hear them out?

    All I am really saying is that women can look after themselves. The OP seems to fancy himself some open-minded, feminist champion riding to the rescue of womankind. Women are over half of the human population. I know they get a raw deal in many ways, but Greatest I Am making pronouncements and generalizations and pleas on their behalf is just laughable.
     
  10. Arne Saknussemm trying to figure it all out Valued Senior Member

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    Re: my other point about religions and their scriptures offering protection to women and their rights:
    (Wow! There's nothing I like better than quoting myself!

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    What does the Bible say about women?

    Protection of women in the Qur'an

    (I said I won't [presume to] speak for Muslims, but what the hey...the fact is I don't much care for Islam, I have lived among Muslims for years and probably find them more hypocritical, self-righteous and ignorant than you ever will. However, in all fairness, I have to say I realize that their religious faith is a reaction to their own guilt. 1400 years ago they realized that they really shouldn't be eating meat from an animal that eats manure and likely has parasites, shouldn't be getting drunk and shouldn't be giving women such a damned hard time. These things are all clearly wrong and there ought to be laws to stop such behavior. As unpleasant as I find Islamic societies, they would be far worse if they were full of parasite-ridden , alcoholics ogling and abusing whichever woman they pleased)
     
  11. Kittamaru Never cruel nor cowardly... Staff Member

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    The statistics answered your question quite completely; several MILLION modern day men in just the US alone follow those verses to the letter, or as close to it as US law allows.

    Yes, in many circle they do; however, that was not the point of the OP, nor was it what you asked. Your statement was quite a blanket one; "what modern day men..." implying that NONE do.

    In some countries, yes, Women can look after themselves just fine. However, even in the US, there is still evidence of gender inequality...

    then you take stock of a place like Iraq. or Afghanistan, or other Middle Eastern countries:

    So in Jordan, women have a fair number of rights; awesome! There have been "honor killings" even here in the USA... shit happens, right?

    So, in Saudi Arabia, women apparently cannot drive, and only recently were given the right to vote and run in elections. Progress IS being made though, suhwheet!

    Kind of sad that a woman can be jailed at all on charges of adultery when she has been raped... and that it took an international outcry to have her released.

    Hm... recently granted right to vote, yay! Canot convey citizenship to their children... ooookay. Can drive and travel solo, yay! Seems Kuwait has is making progress!

    Mandatory dress codes... meh, there are worse things in the world I guess. Not gonna lie - I'm surprised to see Iraq catching up to the rest of the world.

    Again, mandatory dress codes being enforced in large swatches of the country.

    Oookay, Palestine has some serious issues to work through regarding womens rights...

    So... yeah. There are plenty of places in the world where women have few, if any, rights.

    There are plenty of places where, not only are women NOT equal to men, but they are simply unable to protect themselves because the law doesn't recognize their abuse as "wrong".
     
  12. Arne Saknussemm trying to figure it all out Valued Senior Member

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    Okay, Kitt. I'm listening to you, and I know women have it rough, and I believe most of the articles you cite. Yet, I doubt that you can prove "several MILLION modern day men in just the US alone follow those verses to the letter, or as close to it as US law allows" - where do you live, Islamabad, Alabama?

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    And my point about personal experience. You can't believe everything you read in the papers. Reality is something else entirely. This very year, I was in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia and I saw a woman driving a car. Maybe she wasn't supposed to, and maybe she was stopped by the mutawa fifteen seconds after I saw her, and beaten to a pulp, but I know what I saw.

    Also in Saudi Arabia I have seen fancy boutiques with cute lingerie and slinky dresses and cosmetics and all sorts of stuff women enjoy. These malls were not offering these items because they are illegal and no one would ever purchase them. Quite the opposite. Behind high walls and closed doors many Saudi women pretty much do as they please, drinking, smoking, dancing and talking back to their men folk.
     
  13. Kittamaru Never cruel nor cowardly... Staff Member

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    Harrisburg, Pennsylvania actually, just outside of Hershey, the "Great American Chocolate City"
    And I already did prove the point - to be an Orthodox "insert denomination here", you have to follow it pretty much "to the letter"... thats sort of how they work...

    Yet if they tried to wear that in public, without the shawl and such, they could very well end up being stoned without repercussion to the ones who do the stoning... which is my point - it isn't that it COULD happen. It's that it's ALLOWED to happen without any kind of consequence, so there is "no reason" to stop it in these peoples minds.
     
  14. The God's Messages Registered Member

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    @Greatest I am, it is hard to teach them if their mind is closed. They will eventually learn the lessons one day or choose not to learn it. That is their choice. If the lesson is easier to learn, there will be no war, no unequal treatment, all human will live in peace. That is why you see it is hard to learn it. Even a spirit guide or guardian angel is still learning until now
     
  15. Arne Saknussemm trying to figure it all out Valued Senior Member

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    And you know 'millions' of such people? I think I've met very few orthodox people of any religion. Nearly everyone has worked out their own private loopholes. Sometimes quite unintentional. I've seen ostensibly orthodox hardcore Wahabi Muslims laugh at how cute feral puppies are. The very first Nichiren Buddhists monk I saw was sitting in full lotus reading the daily news as he smoked and drank Suntory whiskey as he cooled himself by an electric fan. And Jesus cursing the fig tree! Now really! What should have Jesus done?
     
  16. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    11,201
    Old Testament misogyny:

    Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, an do ye to them as is good in your eyes. Genesis 19:8

    And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged. Leviticus 19:20

    And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire. Leviticus 21:9

    And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. Nunbers 31:15-19

    And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: But the women ... shalt thou take unto thyself. Deuteronomy 20:13-14

    And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her .... Thou shalt go in unto her. Deuteronomy 21:11-13

    If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated .... Deuteronomy 21:15

    If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her ... Deuteronomy 22:13

    I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid. Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city. But if ... the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die. Deuteronomy 22:14-21

    If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city. Deuteronomy 22:23-24

    When two men strive together on with another, and the wife of the one ... putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets: Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her. Deuteronomy 25:11-12

    Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

    Wherefore David arose and went, he and his men, and slew of the Philistines two hundred men; and David brought their foreskins, and they gave them in full tale to the king, that he might be the king's son in law. And Saul gave him Michal his daughter to wife. 1 Samuel 18:27

    Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun. 2 Samuel 12:11

    And her daughters which are in the field shall be slain by the sword; and they shall know that I am the LORD Ezekiel 26:6
     
  17. Kittamaru Never cruel nor cowardly... Staff Member

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    I don't need to "know" them. They are willfully reporting that. Does everyone who defines themselves that way follow it to the letter? Of course not. The vast majority though, yeah, they do.

    I have had the distinct... hm... opportunity... to know some Orthodox followers... they are an interesting bunch, to say the least.

    As for Jesus cursing the fig tree, the point there is simple - Jesus is an asshole. Same as when he went into the temple and flipped shit (literally, he flipped the table) on the tax collectors; sometimes, to get shit done, you gotta be an asshole about it.
     
  18. Hapsburg Hellenistic polytheist Valued Senior Member

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    Women being victimized is more of a long-running social problem. It's not something you can really peg religion for causing. Granted, certain religions have exacerbated, excused, and perpetuated systemic abuse against women. But in recent times, religion and spirituality has played an enormous part in women's liberation and feminist movements. Goddess religion, neo-witchcraft, neopaganism, and related movements have been at the forefront of feminism since the 1960s.
     
  19. andy1033 Truth Seeker Valued Senior Member

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    Society needs some control.

    You people whom like to claim religion is doing this, would be calling for something if just anarchy rained.

    Look at africa and india to see the world you lot wanted, are you sure you know what your talking about in this topic. Society without rules is chaos.
     
  20. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    No 1 has expressed any desire for no rules. Rules do not require religion.
     
  21. andy1033 Truth Seeker Valued Senior Member

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    Without christianty the west would of been like india and africa. You people rubbishing christian values that held onto society, have no idea what a horrendous society it would of been without it. Today they have mind control techs to control overall, but for 1700 years they had to have some form of religion, or society would never of understood any rules.

    People are bonkers, if you do not agree look at india and africa to see how people are without teachings about the good side of there spirituality.

    If the world did not have controls over both genders and there animal instincts it would of been chaos. The west only exists because of the catholic church, and its values. It brought restraint into peoples lifes, and no matter what people think, you all need restraint.

    Today they got all sorts of things to stop people, but techs only existed for like 100 years, so religion was needed before.
     
  22. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    Evidently, you have no idea what a horrible society we have had because of religion. You are obviously prejudiced against the people of India & Africa & cannot be trusted to think clearly about it. No matter what you think or pretend to know, I do not need your restraint.
     
  23. andy1033 Truth Seeker Valued Senior Member

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    If you are born in the west you are conditioned through generations of people with christian beliefs on how to behave.

    Its affected you whether you like it or not.
     

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