Without the perceiver, dose the perceived exist?

yinyinwang · Oct 28, 2003

Re: Re: Re: Re: Without the perceiver, dose the perceived exist?

Originally posted by Jan Ardena
yinyinwang,

A conversation is not an object.

Love

Jan Ardena
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Are you sure we are not talking about anything?
Please what is your definition of object?

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yinyinwang · Oct 28, 2003

Re: Re: Without the perceiver, dose the perceived exist?

Originally posted by sargentlard
You mean "Does"

You need to elaborate on this. Do you mean man being the perciever and the nature being the percieved, or man as the perciever and also the percieved. No one can come first really because the perciever is also the percieved at one point.
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Dose the distinction real matter?

The concept of truth is sort of moot here because the perciever is limited by his stilmulus. One perciever may percieve something differently than another solely due to that person different ability of stimulus intake. [/B]
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The raw material is not the same. That dose not mean you can not know the same truth just because the input is different.

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Jan Ardena · Oct 28, 2003

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Without the perceiver, dose the perceived exist?

Originally posted by wesmorris

Well, there is your skin and then there is the center of the brain that translates what the skin tells it into sensation.
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The translated information or the sensation, is a perception of the awareness, experience and memory of the subject, which is what i call consciousness. The skin in this case is the medium or material field through which the consciousness expresses itself. The brain (also part of that field) translates according to the consciousness. It is because of consciousness why the skin appears to tell the brain how to translate, but the brain and skin are nothing but energy, changing rapidly at every moment. (imho).

Conscious effort can change the latter, but the former is what it is. (at any give time I mean)l
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Read above.

No it doesn't. I have made the assume that reason (logic) is applicable. Through this process, the nature of perspective is revealed to me.
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And that revelation is that it is "impossible," which still implies that you know it is not possible. In hindsight you may have realised that you didn't in fact mean that it is "impossible," so you adjust your understanding so in future your perception will be re-defined. However, your initial impact was your perception at that time, and in truth can only be taken as such.

Of course I don't know anything for sure. I can tell you what is accurate within my frame of reference (which starts with faith in reason).
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So we can see by your assumption that faith in reason is a good way to percieve you and the world around you, but it is slow and cumbersome, in that you always must redefine and adjust your perception. It too is always changing much like the phenomenal world it is percieving.

Because the humans caught in that matrix in that movie perfectly illustrate my point.
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The matrix is nothing but an energy field where the parameters are set by its creator. Logic and reason inside the matrix can at best describe how those parameters work because logic and reason are only limited to the laws which govern that state. So, "we" (outside of the state) are in actuality the "percievers" and the subjects in the matrix are the "percieved" although they believe themselves to be percievers.

Technically I would say that subjectively there is no difference between "actual" and "illusory" perception.
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Again, this is your perception, but in reality there must be a difference at least as much as there is no difference, it stands to reason.

While you may highly suspect that there is some unchanging perspective... why?
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I know that my body is changing in some capacity at every moment. I know everything i see is changing at every moment, nothing is fixed although i percieve them as fixed. By the time you read this, changes would have taken place.
My consciousness, awarness, my ability to take one step back and understand that these changes and experiances are occuring....... that actually what i see isn't the sum total of what i am (body), is not subject to the same prossess. Othewise i would be a different person at almost every moment.

If you agree that it is impossible, then isn't the "actual" perception your own???

Correct.

Love

Jan Ardena.
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Jan Ardena · Oct 28, 2003

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Without the perceiver, dose the perceived exist?

Originally posted by yinyinwang
Are you sure we are not talking about anything?
Please what is your definition of object?
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In this instant my definition of "object" is, something material which can be percieved by the senses.

I may not have fully understood your original question, so please elaborate.

Love

Jan Ardena.

yinyinwang · Oct 28, 2003

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Without the perceiver, dose the perceived exist?

Originally posted by Jan Ardena
In this instant my definition of "object" is, something material which can be percieved by the senses.
I may not have fully understood your original question, so please elaborate.
Love

Jan Ardena.
Click to expand...

If a conversation is not an object, how can you perceive it?

Jan Ardena · Oct 28, 2003

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Without the perceiver, dose the perceived exist?

Originally posted by yinyinwang
If a conversation is not an object, how can you perceive it?
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A conversation is a description of an action, the action being, verbal oral exchange between persons.
An illusion is something or a situation that isn't what it appears to be, not that it is not real, so the act of conversation is real.

Love

Jan Ardena.

yinyinwang · Oct 29, 2003

Originally posted by Redoubtable
The idea of an objective reality is an assumption, a blind leap, pure and simple.
Choose to make it or don't.
Logic, reason . . . these change nothing.
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Do you mean that I am drinking, eating assumptions everyday in and out, how do they tast?

yinyinwang · Oct 29, 2003

Originally posted by Redoubtable
There really isn't any way one could know that for certain.
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Question is not if there is a way of proving, The questionis what way is the acceptable way of proving.

Teh Wiccan · Oct 29, 2003

Originally posted by yinyinwang
Without the perceiver, dose the perceived exist? Which one comes first? Dose the perceiver know the whole truth about the perceived?
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If you mean the percieved as an something or something that happened, then of course. If I wasn't born and therefore could not percieve the world, it would still exist.

yinyinwang · Oct 30, 2003

Re: Re: Without the perceiver, dose the perceived exist?

Originally posted by Teh Wiccan
If you mean the percieved as an something or something that happened, then of course. If I wasn't born and therefore could not percieve the world, it would still exist.
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not to "you".

yumyum · Nov 1, 2003

with out a perceiver you can not know if the preceived exsist you can only assume.
If the preceived does exsist without the perceiver than what does the preceived mean. does that make reality only what you perceiv it to be?

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