With A Heavy Heart, I Say This to Atheists and Christians

Since he insists on context, let us all take a look shall we:

Genesis 19

1 The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. 2 "My lords," he said, "please turn aside to your servant's house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning."
"No," they answered, "we will spend the night in the square."
3 But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. 4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom-both young and old-surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."
6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing. 8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof."


It seems that righteous Lot wanted to do the righteous thing in giving over his daughters to be conquered. Family values again and again.. next time, in episode two:

And how do his daughters reward his 'righteousness':

34 The next day the older daughter said to the younger, "Last night I lay with my father. Let's get him to drink wine again tonight, and you go in and lie with him so we can preserve our family line through our father." 35 So they got their father to drink wine that night also, and the younger daughter went and lay with him. Again he was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.
36 So both of Lot's daughters became pregnant by their father.


You don't have to be an idiot to know that no wine can make a man so drunk that he is not aware that someone is having sleep with him

Do tell me though, how did Lot eject semen if he was knocked unconscious by the wine? Looks like the Bible plays a vital role in morality of our children once again. Glory be!

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

§outh§tar: Since he insists on context, let us all take a look shall we:

Genesis 19

1 The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. 2 "My lords," he said, "please turn aside to your servant's house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning." "No," they answered, "we will spend the night in the square." 3 But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. 4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom-both young and old-surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them." 6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and xid, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing. 8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof."

It seems that righteous Lot wanted to do the righteous thing in giving over his daughters to be conquered. Family values again and again.. next time, in episode two: And how do his daughters reward his 'righteousness':

34 The next day the older daughter said to the younger, "Last night I lay with my father. Let's get him to drink wine again tonight, and you go in and lie with him so we can preserve our family line through our father." 35 So they got their father to drink wine that night also, and the younger daughter went and lay with him. Again he was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up. 36 So both of Lot's daughters became pregnant by their father.

You don't have to be an idiot to know that no wine can make a man so drunk that he is not aware that someone is having sleep with him

Do tell me though, how did Lot eject semen if he was knocked unconscious by the wine? Looks like the Bible plays a vital role in morality of our children once again. Glory be!
************
And, this is the story of Lot's dautghers! Perhaps, the whole of humanity came from the seed of Lot?

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

Yes, the bible is full of steamy sex stories and wars and intrigue. Remember though, in Lot's case, the prohibition against marrying close kin had not yet been made - Lot's uncle Abraham was married to his own sister. Adam's sons must have married their own sisters and it is not inconceivable that Adam married his own daughters (monogamy is a relatively recent invention). Noah's sons, and their sons, would have had to marry at least first cousins if not their own sisters.

We know now that marrying close kin reinforces bad genes, but maybe that wasn't a problem back then? Maybe their genes were more pure and we today have accumulated defective or damaged genes they didn't have? I don't know of anywhere in the bible it says Lot and his daughters were right, I'm just not sure we can judge someone from 4000 years ago by today's standards.

As for offering his daughters to the men of the city... Peter says Lot was just/righteous before Sodom fell. Was he still afterwards? Maybe getting his daughters pregnant was a judgement from God for the way he treated them in Sodom? Yes, there are cases of abuse of coma patients by nurses - it can be done.

BTW, who is he (he wants it in context)? C2o is a woman.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

And yet the Bible may be applied to all today. Double standards and arbitrariness are again the rule of the day!

Is there any contextual evidence for this or are you just speculating? Au contraire the writer makes an effort to clear Lot of any wrongdoing.

34 ...Let's get him to drink wine again tonight
35 ...Again he was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.

 

Heheh, David! This is humorous.. C20 is not a woman, unless she's a lesbian/bisexual whose daughter is with her wife/ex-wife.

Unless you know something I don't know. C20 revealed a bit of himself in one of his posts. Of course, I could be wrong, and if I am, I apologize.

 

Hi David F,

I am indeed a man. Hopefully you are not suprised that there are those that accuse the bretheren and malign the saints. May the Lord continue to strengthen you

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. . . .
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

peace

c20

 

Yo Jenyar,

Quote J:
"When you find yourself backed into a corner and in need of forgiveness, how squarely will you face God?"

No worries dude, I have already forgiven myself. Besides, a god that is all good would be unconditionally forgiving.

(you seem to have a thing with "authority"?)

Allcare.

 

southstar: I wish to apologise to you for calling you the amoeba-man in the past, you could never had been that one celled animal. it quite clearly is c20, he is the amoeba-man, there is more intelligence in a piece of frigging paper.

 

Let me deal with this topic of unconditionally forgiving and forgiveness.

A man went away on a journey to source new materials to use in his clothes factory. He left his son in charge of the factory saying to himself "Oh they are sure to listen to my son."
On the first day of just having the son in charge, some of the workers thought they would take it a bit easy and if the son said anything they would just mock him. He was unlikely to sack them because of their length of service in the factory. The son rarely did any work anyway as far as they could see so they could also call him a hypocrite. Yes that would silence him.
The son saw them slacking and was frightened of his father's wrath should the productivity fall whilst the business was under his managment.
The son called in one of his father's most loyal workers and said to him "Go and keep an eye on those lazy workers, ensure they are doing their bit. I do not want my father to be angry with me upon his return."
So the loyal worker kept an eye on the lazy workers and reported back to his bosses son that productivity had indeed fallen and they were poking fun at the son's name to boot."
The son's eyes grew dark upon hearing this and he decided to go and speak to those wicked employees.
As soon as they saw him coming they knew they were in trouble but were not afraid of him because they despised him. The son said "I have seen you doing nothing out here in my father's factory, I have seen you gossiping and not doing what my father has asked you to do. If you do not start working immediately, you will forfeit your pay and will face charges of gross misconduct."
But those workers did not believe in the son's authority because they were sure his father would undermine his son's decision to fire them upon his return, so they continued in their ways and did less and less work. The loyal worker's who did not follow the dissenters became discouraged by the lack of work being done in the factory and went to see the son.
"This is terrible!" they cried. "Your father will be angry with us upon his return and yet we cannot force the other workers to pull their weight. Total productivity is down and if it get's any worse we may have to close the factory completely."
The son considered this and decided to take the evidence to the lazy workers.
"Look!" said the son, "Your unwillingness to pull your weight in my Father's factory is causing us harm. At this rate we will have to close. I could not face my Father were that to be the case upon his return."
"What have we done?" cried the lazy workers. "We have done nothing!"
"Exactly!" said the son and produced the stock control sheet for that week, "Productivity is down 66% and at this rate we will have to close. I cannot afford to hire you any longer. You are dismissed."
The rebellious workers spat at the son and picked up their coats and left. The son hired new workers to replace the old and between the loyal workers who remained and himself , they trained those new workers with all patience and care. Those new workers were delighted to have work and listened carefully to what the son had to say and did all that he asked. There was a happy spirit in that factory and all the workers were cheery as they went about their day."
When the father returned with new material, he was pleased to see the spirit of joy in the workers as they went about their business.
Upon noticing that some faces had changed among his workforce he asked his son about this.
The son trusting his father would understand explained what had happened.
"Well" said the father, you have been a good manager whilst I have been away, "The fruits of your decision can clearly be seen! I am content that when I am gone you will be a good owner of this business" He then handed his son the new material that he had in his hand and instructed him to make new clothes from it.

The meaning of this story?

Those unruly workers were complacent and thought that the father of the boy would undermine the sons authority and just forgive them everything even ridiculing the man's son. How they misjudged their bosses love for his son and how blind they were to their own purpose!
Upon returning the father did notice something was different in the makeup of the workforce but things were obviously working so well under his son's management that it was incidental to the purpose of the factory and in fact the atmosphere there was better without them it seemed.
The father was confident that his son would inherit all that was his and be a wise manager of it.
Those unruly workers will now have to beg forgiveness if they are ever to work in that factory again!

 

we have now entered the twilight zone.

you do come out with some shit amoeba-man/c20.
you are one weird motherf@#*er.

 

Complete non-existence sounds like heaven to me, but how can existence not exist? Existence was not created, was it?

You are a blue flower, and you rejoice for the blooming of blue flowers but not for the blooming of red flowers?
---
Religious people say that god has forgiven them, and atheists say that they have forgiven themselves. There's not much difference in these two views. Whoever repents in their heart will be forgiven. God loves unconditionally.

I asked for Strength... And He gave me Difficulties to make strong
I asked for Wisdom... And He gave me Problems to solve
I asked for Prosperity... And He gave me Brain and Brawn to work
I asked for Courage... And He gave me Danger to overcome
I asked for Love... And He gave me Troubled people to help
I asked for Favours... And He gave me Opportunities

I received nothing I wanted
I received everything I needed
My Prayer has been answered​

Only god can understand god. Only the pure in heart can see the difference between good and bad, and obey the "law". It is possible for every human to hear the truth. The one who does not wear a mask will hear the voice of god whispering to him, like the egyptian horus, like the word of god. People still can't understand the holy scriptures but they feel the eternal love in them and they will believe in truth.

The word of god brings eternal love and happiness. It is worse to be hated by god than by people. It's better to know oneself than the whole world, because the world is inside of us. When words can heal, let them out and when words can hurt, let them be inside. For nothing is good or bad but it depends on how it is used. But the son of man has desires, and it is better to live with them than to choke them. God can just stand by and watch all of us making our graves and going to our doom. Because we don't want to obey the word. But god is eternally mercyful and he always forgives, even at the bottom of hell.

 

two thirds of christians are hated by god anyway, they shall burn in hell. not very mercyful that is it.


I did'nt ask for Strength... but my fitness training made me strong
I did'nt ask for Wisdom... but my education gave me knowledge
I did'nt ask for Prosperity... but my hard work made me comfortable
I did'nt ask for Courage... but my fitness and intelligence kept me from danger
I did'nt ask for Love... but I found it in my family and friends and all people
I did'nt ask for Favours... but my hard work has gave me the Opportunity to help others and make a good life for myself

I ask for nothing
but though my life, I have been given in abundance,love, family, friends etc
I received none of this, from a fantasy figure.

 

My thing with authority is that it doesn't lie with us in everything. It's good that you have forgiven yourself, but that's not the problem.

My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. - 1 Corinthians 4:4​

And as SnakeLord so likes to point out: "all good" is not "all God".

An example. If I said "I forgive you." Would you fall at my feet and thank me for it? I doubt it, because a) You don't think you've done anything wrong against me, so it's meaningless and b) I don't have any authority to forgive you for things you have not done against me, so again it's meaningless - or let's say: ineffectual. I might as well have said "whatever" and ignored you for all the difference it made. Even if I told you I would unconditionally forgive anything you did against me, it would still not change anything about (a) or (b).

 

So glad you're starting to understand.

 

Suffering is the only way to teach us from the mistakes we do. Who are these two thirds that will burn in hell, and how do you know that two thirds of them will burn in hell? Everyone knows whether or not they are good, whether they will burn in hell or not. Just turn to yourself and ask.

Hee hee.

Your fitness training made your body strong, but not necessarily yourself. But I'm sure that your many experiences in life have also made You strong.

Wisdom is not knowledge. The wise are not learned and the learned are not wise. There is no wisdom without love.

That which is better than believing in a god, is believing in oneself. For whoever knows oneself completely knows god.

There are those who think they have earned what they have. Then there are those who think it has been given to them from above.
And there are those who do not see it in any of these ways.

You seem like a happy person. I wonder. What makes you happy? Does it make others happy too?

The right thing. What is it? If you do the right thing, does it really make "everybody" happy?
Your face. What kind of "face" is it? I wonder. Is the face under that mask "your real face"?
Your friends. What kind of "people" are they? Do these people think of you as a "friend".

The right thing is to show the face of truth. Because the truth makes me happy and the truth will be my friend.

This fantasy figure which you call god is actually "you yourself", because the self of IT dwells within everything! That's why Jesus said: "I am the way, truth and life." He didn't mean any personal "me", but he meant the "I" inside all of us. The truth can be told in thousand ways and yet every way can be true. The people on earth don't see things as the people from heaven. We can have faith that there is a meaning behind everything and we will find a meaning behind everything.
---
I am in everything and I fill everything in the whole universe. Everything that is - is "me". In all that I love, I love "my self", for what we "think" we do not love, is only that which we haven't found in ourself. In oneself is life and the only truth, and whoever knows oneself completely loves everything and one as the same, because he is one with them.

 

And you don't wonder why my eyes didn't suddenly open when you brought your terrible and surprising news that my life and death is in God's hands, to do with as He would? I have known and believed this all along.

But my judgment does not have the authority to judge God. It is after all merely an exercise of the realization that there is a difference between good and evil, and it is this realization that you take for granted. You judge the Judge - who is the authority? "Judge carefully, for with the LORD our God there is no injustice or partiality or bribery."

The best judge is not the one who gives crime the lightest punishment. Only criminals think that.

 

So why exactly did you waste all those kilobytes debating against it?

But my point specifically, as you should be aware, was that you cannot promote one without promoting the other, and that's exactly what C20 was doing.

Surely beauty or evil all coming from the same source makes it all as important, and as worthy of mention? Is cancer not as wonderful a creation as a butterfly? Sure, it has a different purpose as assigned by god, but does that make it any less beautiful?

Remember your later comment of "the best judge is not the one who gives the lightest punishment. Only a criminal thinks that."

In this scenario we would all be the criminals, because the cancer does away with our earthly lives - but seeings as that's faulty, to which you concur, what is the apparent problem with mentioning cancer alongside butterflies and flowers? Do they not go hand in hand? Is one not as important to mention as the other?

So, let us rephrase: If you want to find god, all you need to do is look outside at the fish swimming, the butterflies, the flowers, the lung cancer, the pubic lice and the HIV virus.

Now Jenyar, isn't that just a much more honest and complete statement than the biased one C20 made?

You completely misunderstand obviously. This isn't judgement of god, merely judgement of C20's statement on how to find/see god. He neglected to include one side of the statement, given that he is the 'criminal' you mention in your quote. That is biased, incomplete and wrong, no?

If it's all god's work, why neglect half of it just because it doesn't sound personally pleasing? Why neglect to mention cancer and the like? Sure, it's because you're the criminal. That in no way makes cancer any less important, any less beautiful, or any less a way to see/find god, now does it?

Judging C20, absolutely. But if I was a religious man, I wouldn't chop god in halves which is all that's being done here. I would love cancer as much as cute little kittens, and be certain to shout it from the rooftops as much as love. You shouldn't be biased merely because you don't like cancer.

'Yeah,' said Jake, finally entering and taking a seat in his desk chair. 'Anyone leaving when you came into the building?'

Your quote is as pointless to me as mine is to yours. Just because you accept these things as complete truths, and live by them - what bearing would that have on me?

 

Oh man.... this thread is making me sick.....
Geeezzzzz... no interesting rational discussions here....

This is the only hing worth replying:

Should be for some. That's why they choose just that.

Well... in my opinion, existance was created. I have to work more on this, but this is what I got so far. Existance cannot have existed forever because forever in this conext makes no sense. If the universe has existed forever, there would be an infinite amount of time before us. It would take an infinite amount of time for our present to arrive. So existance itself cannot have existed forever.


That's the only interesting thing I can pullout from this thread...

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

 

"TruthSeeker", didn't i talk to you in another thread about infinite existence? i said that i believe the universe has been bigbanging forever and the "universe" (existence) is not created but it just IS. infinity is like circle... the end is like the beginning, and there is no beginning or end. existence is the only existence. Because duality is an illusion it also means that infinity and its opposite can sometimes be melted together and seen as the one and the same.

Yeah this thread is crazy, 'cos it has hundreds of replies and people just talk whatever they like.

 

beyondtimeandspace: I would like to add to my last post, due to further research. In the following link, the story of moses is decribed very much as Medicine Woman describes it.

http://www.greatdreams.com/moses.htm

However, there also represents a problem your interpretation as well. The problem is this, that at first Moses did not believe in Aten. Granted, later he does, but this is after likening Aten to the Israelite deity.
*************
M*W: No, I have to stop you here and say that the Israelites didn't exist at that time and it was, in fact, the tribe of the Habiru (who later became the Hebrew Israelites) who believed in Aten the Sun God, because that is exactly why Moses was ushering them out of Egypt. They weren't slaves but shepherds.
*************
b-t-&-s: The point to note, is that Moses probably understands Aten in a different way than other Egyptians would have. In other words, it would continue to go along with the postulation that I have made concerning the symbolisms of these gods. Moses found that symbolic representation (which may or may not have been based upon the original idea from which the Israelite monotheistic God arose) of Aten was worthy of application to the Israelite monotheistic God.
*************
M*W: Aten was Moses' monotheistic God. Moses fled into the desert because most of Egypt believed in many suns, moons and gods and didn't believe in Pharaoh Moses' divinely ordered belief in the monotheistic sun. Moses never made it to Israel.
*************
b-t-&-s: Hence, your interpretation that Moses believed the Sun to be God, is still off-base. (as a side note, I am intrigued by the skull that is shown on this link, I would like to find out more about it, as it seems to be corroborative with theories that I hold concerning the "gods" the mythologies, etc... cool skull!)
*************
M*W: I'll take a look at the website and get back to you.