Will machines become conscious someday?

Discussion in 'Intelligence & Machines' started by Magical Realist, Sep 19, 2012.

  1. Motor Daddy ☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼ Valued Senior Member

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    If you flip a coin in your head as to how many cookies you're gonna grab, and heads is 1 cookie, and tails is 2 cookies, how can you ever grab more than 2 cookies?
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2014
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  3. Le Repteux Registered Senior Member

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    You take the cookies, eat them, and flip another coin if you're still hungry. You know what, I think thats why so many people get fat!

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    To me, randomness of mind is meant to learn faster than animals or to invent new things, not to fulfill our immediate needs.
     
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  5. Motor Daddy ☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼ Valued Senior Member

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    How many do you take, 1 or 2?
     
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  7. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    This claim :
     
  8. Le Repteux Registered Senior Member

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    Oh! I did not take it as a claim, but only a remark. To me, its true that we are some kind of machines, though biologic ones, but to know more about conscience, we also have to imagine how the brain works, and try to support our hypothesis with experiment. What I claimed is that coping more efficiently with chance was a possible property of human mind, one that we have not investigated up to now, and that could be the cause for imagination, which is a good candidate for conscience because we can use it to change our ideas, and I think that conscience could be due to the perception of change, whether it would come from inside or outside of the brain.
     
  9. Le Repteux Registered Senior Member

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    It doesn't matter because we can cheat. As a matter of fact, we can even cheat our appetite.
     
  10. Motor Daddy ☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼ Valued Senior Member

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    1. You said you flip a coin.
    2. Heads means you grab 1 cookie, tails you grab 2 cookies.
    3. You flip.

    Now, I am asking you how many you grab? Your reply is you can cheat. How do you cheat, by not flipping the coin?
     
  11. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    I didn't say that solves everything. I simply added 1 fact to the discussion. Your claim (or whatever you like to call it) that it didn't help, itself didn't help anything.
     
  12. Le Repteux Registered Senior Member

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    Of course since it was a kind of a question. What do you think of the answer that I gave to it? What do you think of the link I made between imagination and conscience for instance? Between change and the perception of that change?
     
  13. Le Repteux Registered Senior Member

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    By not respecting the rule I intended to respect. But I think that I see what you want to point out, I think that you want to show that we are subjective, and that flipping a coin in our head would also be subjective, thus that it would belong to a control process. This is what we thought of life before Darwin established that chance could explain its development. Is the brain too subjective to apply this reasoning to itself?
     
  14. Motor Daddy ☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼ Valued Senior Member

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    It's like trying to nail jello to a wall!

    So you cheat by not respecting which rule? Which rule is there to choosing whether you are going to take 1 or 2 cookies? The rules I've heard you say is that you can cheat, you throw dice when making decisions, and you don't respect rules. You've also eliminated the possibility of taking more than 2 cookies, unless you meant that heads means you take 3 cookies and tails means you take 27 cookies? Which is it?
     
  15. Le Repteux Registered Senior Member

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    You are discussing the way brain could produce chance consciously, and I played your game for a while, but in fact, the random process that I am talking about would be subconscious. For instance, when we suddenly realize that we are having a good intuition, in reality, what we would have is a good feeling about an idea that seems to come from nowhere, which would be the case if it had developed randomly. To me, our intuitions show how our ideas could develop randomly, whereas our improvisations show how our actions could do so. These two phenomenon concern the future, they only work if we have time to check them out.

    When we have a good intuition, we can build an hypothesis out of it, and then make an experiment to see if it works. And when we improvise, we can make random moves, but it will work only if we have time to catch up with the imprecision it adds up to our actions. For instance, a Jazz player can make false notes only if he is able to catch up with the theme and the rhythm later, and the more he takes chances, the more his music will sound good to us if he is still able to catch up.
     
  16. Motor Daddy ☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼ Valued Senior Member

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    My game? I asked a simple question and we still have no answer. You are incapable of making a decision. If you can't decide how many cookies to take then you have some issues. If you rely on ghosteses to help you cheat yourself...well, I would say that's a little unusual, but there seems to be a great many like you. So par for the course.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2014
  17. Le Repteux Registered Senior Member

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    It is not because our decisions would contain some randomness that we would not have the impression of taking them voluntarily. Intuitions seem to come from nowhere, but we still have the impression that they are good. When we improvise, we still have the impression that we will succeed.
     
  18. Motor Daddy ☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼ Valued Senior Member

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    So when someone asks you why you took 2 cookies you can say that you had no control over your decision, it just happened that way. "Sorry Officer, I'm not responsible for doing 80 in a 40. I have no control over the decisions that I make. I'm simply not responsible. It's God's plan for me. Now go away, you bother me." (rolls eyes)
     
  19. Le Repteux Registered Senior Member

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    Control is not the only property of intelligence. If we could control everything, there would be no more evolution. Those who like to control the more are from the defense department. This kind of control is good for immediate survival of a group, but it has no influence on its evolution. To evolve and stay alive, a group needs chance, and so do individuals.
     
  20. Motor Daddy ☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼ Valued Senior Member

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    Apples aren't blue! As far as control goes, you've shown you have none. You can't make a decision on your own, and when placed in a position to do so you look for ways to cheat, disobey, and pass the buck. That way you can go through life doing what the f' you want to, all the while thinking your sins are already paid for. It's like a license to do as you please and not feel guilty? Did you need someone to take the fall for your sins, so you can live a worry free life while committing said sins? Then, as long as you are a believer you get to have an eternal existence in Heaven, close to God, irrespective of the terrible sh!t you did during your life, because that was already paid for? Not sure how that works, care to explain?
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2014
  21. Le Repteux Registered Senior Member

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    Because I believe that chance has something to do with mind does not mean that I can do whatever comes to mine without any respect for others. I'm not going to bash you for instance just because we don't have the same opinion. I don't even kill flies, instead, I put them outside. If the idea of god seems to help you to live a better life, the idea of mind using chance renders me humble, or is it because I was humble that I had this idea? Anyway, I don't think that the idea of god has proven that it helps us live better lives. To me, this idea never stopped us from killing each other, or is it the inverse?
     
  22. Motor Daddy ☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼ Valued Senior Member

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    Do you wash your hands and kill bacteria? Does it make you feel like a great person that you performed a catch and release on a fly? Makes the day go a little smoother? What happens if in your thoughtless day, you don't think about the traffic light while you're driving (after you performed the catch and release on the fly), and you mindlessly run a red light and kill a person in a vehicle? Which is more important to you, the catch and release or the mindless death that you caused?
     
  23. Le Repteux Registered Senior Member

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    Not easy to find a link between two opposed ideas, isn't it? Do you think there is a link, or do you think only yours is right?
     

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