Will Greece exit the Euro? (Thread now a poll)

Discussion in 'Business & Economics' started by Billy T, May 13, 2012.

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Will Greece Exit the Euro (Poll version)

Poll closed Jul 12, 2012.
  1. Yes

    70.0%
  2. No

    30.0%
  1. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,285
    The Guardian: Alexis Tsipras: bailout a ‘bad deal’ but the best Greece could get
    And there you have the end result of the Oxymoron that is Progressive Socialism*.

    Greece (was run by left-wing Syriza party / Coalition of the Radical Left - now run by the Troika)

    Other left leaning States:
    The People's Republic of China (ruled by Communist Party of China)
    Communist North Korea (ruled by the Workers' Party of Korea)
    Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela (ruled by United Socialist Party of Venezuela)
    Germany: 1933 to 1945 (was ruled by National Socialist German Workers' Party)

    Honorable mention:
    Detroit, Michigan (1962 - 2015 ruled by Progressive Socialists of the Democratic Worker's Party)

    US cities expected to file for bankruptcy:
    Compton, California (1963 - 2015 ruled by Progressive Socialists of the Democratic Party)
    Milwaukee, Wisconsin (1942 - 2015, ruled by Progressive Socialists of the Democratic Party)
    Philadelphia, Pennsylvania (1956 - 2015, ruled by Progressive Socialists of the Democratic Party)
    Baltimore, Maryland (1967 - 2015, ruled by Progressive Socialists of the Democratic Party)
    Chicago Illinois (1930 - 2015, ruled by Progressive Socialists of the Democratic Party)

    And etc...

    Ahhhhh.... the smell of Statism in the morning. Yup, it's all the Koch Brother's fault. They're the reason why 1 in 5 American 'High' school graduates are unable to competently read and write. Thank the Gods (and the State) we have 'free' education. Free free free. Soon we'll all have 'free' healthcare too. Won't that be great? As safe as a State-run ghetto and as useful as a State-run school.

    * Given that EVERYONE is a Statist. Shouldn't we now say "Progressive" Libertarian-ism? I mean, you can't "Progress" towards somewhere you've already arrived at - namely our hyper-regulated, progressive Central Bank funded, labor-taxed, need a licence to sell arranged flowers, drive a cab, cut hair, fix a computer, sell a beer, Centrally Planned Progressive Welfare/Warfare State.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2015
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  3. cornel Registered Senior Member

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    137
    Greece isn't part of the USA ...
     
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  5. pjdude1219 screw watergate i want to know about zaragate Valued Senior Member

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    15,938
    still allowed to spread your lies i see. there are no socialists left in power so please quit using your fucked up dishonest terms. what is it with your ideology and its patholigical need to lie about well every thing
     
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  7. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    22,882
    A minor detail for Michael.

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  8. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Simply noting the similarities.

    Each city listed for Bankruptcy, is STILL being run by a Progressive Socialist DemonRat. Of course, their cousins, the Progressive ReThuglickan ChickenHawks - they love them some "Socialism" too. Which is why we're now stuck paying for an icecream that licks itself - indefinitely.

    Never-ending war and the Police State are "Progress"..... if you're insane. Here, let's come up with an example: Cake Shop owner decides he/she doesn't want to make a gay wedding cake. Why? Probably because they believe in some superstitious non-sense. But who f*cking cares? Solution? Go to a different store.
    ......Oooooh wait..... not in Progressive Socialist America.
    Nope.
    Thank the Gawds we have a Police State.
    So, send over the BlueKluxKlan and problem 'solved'. The "American Way". Never seen a nail that could be fixed with a large enough hammer. Just bend that f*cker right into the wood if you have too. Which is exactly how Progressive Socialistic America likes it. Want to sell flowers? Better ask Progressive Nanny State state for permission. I mean, flowers is Dangerous. Want to work? Better Pay Progressive Nanny State for permission. Working is a Privilege.... LOL.

    The USA isn't Scandinavia, it's Greece.

    Don't worry, we have DECADES more to come. Plenty of 'redistribution' to go. Just think of all the SlumLords who need to be taxed 99.9% - you know, for the Good of Society and because They Use the Roads.

    That free Healthcare and Education and Internet and etc... isn't paying for itself, now is it?
    Ahhhahahaha..... No it isn't

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    Last edited: Jul 16, 2015
  9. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    From Bloomberg: Nine People Who Saw the Greek Crisis Coming Years Before Everyone Else Did

    "They will be subsidizing scroungers, lounging in cafes on the Mediterranean beaches. Monetary union, in the end, will result in a gigantic blackmailing operation. When we Germans demand monetray discipline, other countries will blame their financial woes on that same discipline, and by extension, on us. More they will perceive us as a kind of economic policeman. We risk once again becoming the most hated people in Europe."


    - Arnulf Baring (1997)
     
  10. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,285
    This also sums things up nicely

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    Note: Alexis Tsipras is the leader of the Syriza Political party which stands for: The Coalition of the Radical Left. Just in case anyone is confused.


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  11. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    22,882
    No you were not, there is nothing similar between Greece and the US, as has been explained in detail to you numerous times over the years. But then you never were one to care about facts and reason Michael. What you are doing is what you always do, preach your libertarian ideology and demagogue the news.
     
  12. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,882
    Well a lot of people say this coming, it's not like it wasn't obvious or a secret. The EU has a lot of problems as evidence by the Great Recession. The EU is too loose and not well integrated. To put it into American terms, its governance is a little stronger than the governance provided by the Articles of Confederation which was America's first governing document, but weaker than the US constitution.
     
  13. brucep Valued Senior Member

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    4,098
    That's what intellectual dishonest cranks do. Pathologically lie about everything.
     
  14. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,285
    The brainwashing is strong in this one.

    Well, how's this sound? You go on out there and wave our flag, and hold a placard for Bernie 'A Political Revolution is Coming' Sanders and when Hillary Clinton is elected - hold your nose and try and remember "It's Your Time". You know you want to. Yeah sure, it's not as meme-like as "Hope and Change" or "Change You Can Believe In". But, whatever, functionally illiterate Hillary-bots needn't require much in way of modern meme other than 'Female' and 'Clinton'. Kind of like Herr Bush III. His slogan is even stupider: 'Jeb!'. Nice and simple with the added bonus of not having to know how to read or write sentences.

    Farmer's gonna let you out of the paddock for the BIG day. Let you walk over and choose who milks the f*ck out of your and yours. Lucky Lucky you. Shine them shoes. Pull the magic lever. You had your 5 minutes, now back in the milking stall you go. Time to make mappy and pappy milk and meat. Don't forget: "It's Your Time". Praying really really hard? Yeah, keeping doing that. Don't step out of line. Wouldn't want the Police State to send the BlueKluxKlan over. Nope. Just keep your head down and do what your Regulators decide you can and can not do - you know, for the "Good of Society" because "You Use the Roads".

    LOL....
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2015
  15. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    26,882
    You listed that as a "left-leaning state". Apparently, you got that idea from the brand name of the Party involved.

    You might as well begin a discussion of some ontological matter on the basis that Coca Cola is the real thing.

    That pratfall accomplished with splat, this is just piling on:
    Aside from the pure comedy of ascribing leftwing ideology to the organized crime so deeply entrenched in those cities,

    we have the historical circumstance that it was privatization and associated corruption, deregulation of energy and banking, and taxation changes favoring wealthier citizens, - the polar opposite of a progressive socialist agenda - that touched off the collapse of most of those.

    Apparently Michael is reading the word "Democrat" and attaching "Progressive Socialist" by reflex, without checking either the dictionary or the real world for agreement. But hey - a guy who can look at a government that set up even its horrible wartime concentration camps as profit-generators and labor suppliers for corporate capitalism, and call it "left-leaning", isn't going to be sweating petty stuff, like what actually happened and who did it.

    Instead, we are seeing the actions of the IMF and the deals cut by Goldman Sachs labeled "Progressive Socialism".
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2015
  16. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,882
    A deal has been cut, Greece has the cash it needs. But capital controls remain in place. Can the Greek government pull it off this time? I'm doubtful.
     
  17. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    26,882
    The dozens of conditions and requirements imposed on Greece by the international bankers are, we notice, designed to abet the entry of international corporations into profitable sectors of the Greek economy. Their role in "discipline" or whatever is not always apparent, but their role in abetting the takeover of the profit centers of the Greek economy by the financial cronies of the bankers is pretty straightforward.

    Greece is no longer allowed to require that its pharmacies be individually owned by a licensed pharmacist, for example - so the big chains can move in.
     
  18. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    22,882
    LOL, no it's called free market competition.

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    Get use to it. It's a good thing, and something the Greek state desperately needs if Greece is ever to become a modern successful state and have the ability to repay its debts. Those "conditions and requirements" are designed to improve the Greek economy so that Greece can pay its bills. In order to become self sufficient, Greece needs to make its economy much more efficient. That means dropping excessive regulation and opening markets to competition. 60 Minutes ran a piece a few weeks ago on Greece, it cited an ambulance that had been donated but not used for more than a year and still not in use because it's bogged down in the Greek bureaucracy. There is no good reason for that. Greece needs to be less protectionist and more business friendly and its industry more competitive if it has a prayer of becoming a self sufficient state. That's why Greece's neighbors who have funded and continue to fund the Greek state have insisted on these "conditions", they don't want to fund the Greek state into perpetuity. It is a difficult sale for them domestically. Leaders of fellow EU states (i.e. Greece's creditors) have to explain to their constituents why they have to fund Greece's fiscal profligacy and bad behavior. That's a tough sell.
     
  19. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    26,882
    Rolling all the pharmacies into a couple of large chain operations run by foreigners is unlikely to improve competition and market operations in Greece. You can compare South and North Dakota, for example - North Dakota has more pharmacies and they are located more conveniently, also generally lower prices and better service.

    Free markets and unregulated markets are not the same thing. Free market competition will be reduced by that deregulation - fewer independent pharmacies means less market competition.
    No, they aren't. The Greek economy will not benefit from having so much of the profits from its businesses and the return on its investments sent out of the country, for example. These bankers and businessmen are predators, and the Greek economy is their prey.
    Repayment is not going to happen. Greece already was a modern successful State. Austerity programs will damage, not boost, the Greek economy - as they always have elsewhere.
     
  20. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,882
    And do you have any evidence to prove any of your assertions? Do you have any subject matter knowledge? No you don't. Just as with the right wing nuts who post here, you zealously post your ideological beliefs with no regard for truth or reason.
     
  21. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,882
    Hmm, do you know what you are trying to say? Markets can be both free and regulated, they are not mutually exclusive. However, excessive regulation and/or corruption can indeed retard economic growth. There is nothing wrong with well regulated markets. But that isn't what Greece has. Greece suffers from excessive regulation and bureaucracy and corruption. All of which are retarding economic growth and rendering its markets inefficient.
    Oh, and where is the basis for that assertion? It hasn't happened in the US? Wal-Mart has driven out many smaller stores, but competition remains stiff. Instead of competing with smaller companies, Wal-Mart competes with other larger retailers. So your belief is just not founded in fact.

    LOL, yeah, your left wing version of the right wing rants that are so common in this forum. Obviously you don't know what the net margins are for this industry. The average net profit margin for the industry is 3%. Walgreens-Boots is a big pharmacy chain and which does business in Europe had a 4.5% margin last quarter. Competitors like Walgreens-Boots will drive inefficient competitors (e.g. smaller shops) out of business and as a result Greek consumers will get cheaper drugs. It will give Greek consumers a few extra euros which they can then spend thus stimulating the Greek economy.

    Larger pharmacies will move into Greece and for a long time those pharmacies will be cash flow negative, meaning the stores will cost the owners more than they produce in revenue, much less profit/cash flow as these pharmacies will need to buy land and build buildings which creates construction jobs in the Greek economy. They will hire local people to staff their stores and transport their goods which puts even more money into the Greek economy. Their employees will spend their salaries which will create more demand for other goods and services thereby creating even more economic growth, all of that is good for the Greek economy.

    Contrary to your assertion, deregulation, allowing more competitors in will increase market efficiency and will stimulate job growth and economic growth. It creates jobs and it reduces product cost to Greek consumers. Instead of just mindlessly repeating your biases, think things through. Do some work, do some research.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2015
  22. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    26,882
    That doesn't mean the IMF impositions and corporate friendly measures will help. Looking at them, it appears that they won't. They will instead abet predation by international corporate interests, reward yet more the corrupt and clout connected, and prevent the Greek economy from prospering under its huge burden of debt.
    It has. Compare North and South Dakota, as suggested above.
    If things go as they have elsewhere, the money made will be taken off shore. The reduction of the market to a handful of large stores owned by distant investors will reduce competition in service, access, and net cost as opposed to shelf price. The Greek decision to prefer net benefit over shelf price will be ignored, and "market efficiency" will be measured by price at the checkout counter alone. Whether or not most prices or median prices will actually be lower (they are higher, in South Dakota compared with North Dakota) remains to be seen.

    We've seen this kind of thing before - in Iraq, in Mexico, in Chile, et al. Or in the many American towns damaged by corporate predation. It does not lead to prosperity. In Greece, the most likely outcome is greatly increased misery upon the still inevitable default and write-down of the by then much larger debt.
     
  23. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,882
    Oh, so you are looking at the “IMF impositions” are you? J If that is so, then what do you find so offensive and onerous about the IMF’s demand to provide Greece with debt relief? What is so corporate friendly with writing off some of Greece’s debt?

    Here is the bottom line, you are bullshitting again. You are not qualified by education or by temperament to be able to judge the IMF. You have no knowledge of economics or business. But hey, ideological demagogues don’t need or want evidence and reason.

    Zealotry + Ignorance = Ideological Idiots.
    LOL… and you seriously think any of that makes sense? As usual, you have NO evidence to support your many assertions and even less reason. Ideological idiots of any stripe, be they liberal (e.g. you) or be they conservative have an ability to ignore unpleasant fact and logical thought. What didn’t you get about my simple explanation as to why reform is needed in Greece? Apparently everything, those new businesses will buy land, build buildings, and hire people. It’s called investment. These new businesses Greece’s creditors want to bring into the country will bring desperately needed currency into the Greece, not take it out which is what has happened for decades in Greece. It's the reason why Greece is desperately cash poor. Greece needs to bring currency into the country, and they do that by bringing in investors and their currency. This isn’t that difficult, it’s basic macroeconomics 101. Do you really think Greece's creditors want Greece to default on the money it owes them...seriously? Now that is some perverted thinking exacerbated by the fact you have absolutely NO evidence to support your beliefs.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2015

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