Will Greece Default on it's debt?

Discussion in 'Business & Economics' started by Michael, Jun 30, 2011.

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Will Greece Default on it's debt?

  1. Yes

    19 vote(s)
    79.2%
  2. No

    5 vote(s)
    20.8%
  1. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Simple question: Will the Greeks default on their debt?


    If so, and I think they will, what will this mean for the rest of the World economy? In particular, what will the Italians do when their number is up? The Portuguese? The Spanish? It should be noted that, the Icelandic seem to be doing just fine :)
     
  2. Repo Man Valued Senior Member

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    None of the economists on the BBC today knew what would be the result of a Greek default, so I'm certainly not going to pretend to. I think the worst fear is that it could trigger a chain reaction similar to the 2008 banking crisis. Which is enough to cause many sleepless nights I'm sure.

    I really don't know what to think about the rioters. The impression I got from many of the protesters interviewed is that they feel that the loans that put the country in this position had little to no benefit for them, whereas the austerity measures will directly affect them, in very negative ways. One woman who was protesting was complaining to the BBC reporter that the protests were being dominated by anarchists who seem to amount to professional protesters. It just seems like a bad situation all around.
     
  3. Me-Ki-Gal Banned Banned

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    They probably will if they don't get another bail out . How bout America ? are we going to default ? Probably not . Raise the debt ceiling and watch our dollars buy less and less goods
     
  4. ULTRA Realistically Surreal Registered Senior Member

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    1,555
    Greece should dump the Euro and devalue the Drachma. It would send the Eurozone into blind panic, but I don't care serves them right for pretending a one-size-fits-all economy could work across such a diverse range of countries. They were told this would happen, and is why Britain never joined. It's corrupt and should be allowed to fail and sovreign states can revert to their own currency like common sense would suggest.
    It's only europride that holds it together. You think this is bad? Wait till Spain goes bust, then this will look like pocketmoney.
     
  5. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    America is different, we print the "money" :) Sure, everyone's savings are being totally obliterated. What do you expect? Politicians have to promise a lot of bullshit to your average uninformed ignorant voter to get elected (that and crap on about abortion versus women's rights) :shrug: Hell, half those voters are on welfare anyway. They needs them some money ;)
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2011
  6. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    I totally agree and I'm greatly looking forward to see how the Spanish and Italians respond to "austerity measures". Ha! Maybe Italy will sell Sicily?!?


    On a side note, I was shocked and saddened by the Irish. They literally rolled over and took it up the arse.
    On another side note, did you know in ancient Japan that "bankers" could have their head removed for insolence - literally, bankers would grovel in the mud at any samurai who happened by (as in bury their face in the mud/dirt at the sight of a samurai). Bankers/lenders were the bottom of the social hierarchy (well, one step above beggar, two below farmer). The Chinese were especially sickened by lenders (at some times in their history, at other times they used fiat currency). I remember reading about the Chinese views on Muslims (who, at that time (in the north west), were lending money at interest). Which is ironic, as now many Muslims think lending at interest is "unislamic". It wasn't then. Which tell us something doesn't it? One big circle jerk is going on here.
    Didn't Roman Emperor's always start their reign by wiping free all debts?
    Didn't English monarchs use a wooden stick to mark off debt (if I remember correctly those tally sticks were the longest "in use" currency - ever!)
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2011
  7. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    They are in deep do do because they aren't cutting enough "fat" to really bring down their expenses over the coming years with their new "austerity" program they voted on yesterday. Today they could make even more cuts where they are needed NOW but I'll bet they won't They are trying to spread out the changes over the coming 5 years or so but that means they will be running in the red until those measures and more, that I hope they will pass today, take affect. That means they will continue to ask for bailouts until all of their plans are in effect which doesn't show that they are doing enough soon enough to help themselves. They should cut quicker and get done with it because the sooner they do that , the sooner they can start the recovery and rebuilding of their economy.
     
  8. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

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    The EU need to make a sensible deal with Greece straight away and at least halve their debt.
    They are a poor country.
    Not even a major country could deal with the degree of debt Greece owes.

    Greek Ratio of debt to GDP is 155% and set to rise.

    US Debt is at just over 100%.
    Mostly caused by the encouragement of, sorry I meant war on, Terror.
    UK and other major European Countries are at 80% to 90%
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2011
  9. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    31,317
    But Greece shouldn't make all the rest of the EU pay for its outrageous spending and out of control government payroll either.
     
  10. nirakar ( i ^ i ) Registered Senior Member

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    From my now in the cesspool thread,



    After Greeks fought for and won independence from the Ottomon Empire the "international Community" AKA the respect demanding International Mafia (British, French, Russian and Prussian governments forced Greece to appoint a German member of the international royal family as King of Greece to make sure that the new Greek nation would be subservient colony to the political and financial interests of politically active oligarchs that were the ruling force behind the Great European Kingdoms and Democracies.

    Eventually the USA joined the club and became it's dominant member.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_military_junta_of_1967–1974

    Below from: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...hplace-centre-of-Greek-heritage-sale-row.html

    Below from: http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2011-06-19/news/29674545_1_greeks-greece-elgin-marbles

    Below from: http://roarmag.org/2011/06/roar-on-bbc-world-dont-blame-the-greeks/

    The "International community"/(international Mafa) had wanted to plunder Argentina but Venezuela/Cavez interfered. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentine_debt_restructuring


    Bubbles and their crashes benefit those with stable access to credit as the booms and busts help these people to buy low and sell high. Without Booms and Busts it is difficult to know what is "low" and what is "high". During busts small businesses and small nations find it difficult to get access to credit on decent terms but giant financial firms and big governments have access to credit and can buy low.

    There is a game that the US government, companies like Goldman and Citigroup, the IMF and World Bank, defense contractors, and companies like Bechtel have played with corrupt smaller governments. The World Bank promotes development, loans are made with financial firms earning commissions or interest and the officers of the corrupt government give commissions to themselves and their friends. Companies like Bechtel and defense contractors which bribe (campaign contributions) the US government then take the lent money and US taxpayer funded aid money to give/sell the corrupt small country at artificially inflated prices weapons or dams or financial consultancy or subsidized corn or whatever which the small country did not really need. Then as the debt mounts should the small nation ever displease international powers by flirting with socialism or flirting with honesty or if the free market turns negative on that nation on it's own the powers and their IMF tool will then try to make the crashing nation crash even further so that the politically connected buyers of assets can buy at prices that are too low. And the powers will try to keep the free market competition from competing with the politically connected buyers.

    Empires whether the British empire of the 1800s or the "International Community's New World Order Global financial Empire" tend to make both their own average citizen and the colonized people poorer as they tax their own people to pay for the force needed to induce the colonized people to transfer their resources to the colonizers at below market value.

    The feudal capitalists privatize opportunity and socialize risk and need big government to help them do this. They pretend to be free market capitalists while they try to subvert free markets and they pretend to be concerned with the social well being of the masses while they try to stamp out as much socialism as they can.

    Politically connected firms probably are already telling the German, French, British and American governments as well as the EU and IMF and corrupt Greek politicians which Greek assets they want and what below market price they want to pay for them.

    But if the German, other EU and American firms think they we be the beneficiaries of the looting of Greek assets at below market prices they should take note of other recent national financial crises that had them drooling in anticipation. The Russian political insider Oligarchs not Wall Street were the ones who got to loot the Russians when the Soviet government assets were sold off. Carlos Slim had access to credit during the Mexican Peso Crisis and went bargain hunting and then Carlos Slim's group won the bid for the Mexican Government's telephone monopoly. Even if the bid was not rigged Carlos clearly underpaid for the monopoly because he was able to raise rates. Carlos Slim used this control of a monopoly to become the worlds richest man. In Iraq the Western oil companies were told which company would get which piece of Iraq but the political situation in Iraq never allowed the US government to make good on those promises. In Argentina the financial crises had Argentina set up for a IMF organized looting but women beating pots and pans scared the Argentine government into resisting the IMF and then Chavez used Venezuela's money to allow Argentina to escape being looted by global capitalists.

    In Yugoslavia the Germany and the USA backed the Solvenian independence movement and Milosevic and Tudjman as they set about taking advantage of ethnic differences to destroy Yugoslavia. Only later did Milosevic have a falling out with his international backers. I don't know how the looting of Yugoslavia worked out for it's international sponsors. I hear Tudjman's cronies got very rich while average Croatians became poorer.

    Greeks have historic ties to Serbia. Greeks never bought the Nato, version of the Balkan war storyline.

    Whether the Greek people allow their corrupt politicians to make new bad deals with the masters of "International community" remains to be seen. I don't think the Greeks, even wealthier Greeks will ever buy into the IMF and ECB as being institutions that should be trusted.

    Below from: http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/20...-on-imf-33-favors-changes-through-revolution/



    Parthenon to be moved and reassembled in Macau?

    The nation formerly known as Greece to sell naming rights to the nation formerly known as Greece to the highest bidder?

    The Aegean Sea to be sold to British Petroleum?

    The right to vote in Greece to be sold to ChoicePoint which will impose a poll tax on all who wish to vote while reserving the exclusive right to declare who won the elections for themselves subject to IMF approval? ChoicePoint also to sell the voter personal information to who ever they want?

    The right to breathe Greek air to be sold to Goldman Sachs? If the people formerly known as Greeks wish to breathe without paying royalties to Goldman then let them wear scuba tanks.
     
  11. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Lets hope the Greeks default on their debt, when the Irish, Portuguese, Italians and Spanish see that the sky didn't fall, they'll do the same. THEN, maybe, we can see some real monetary reform.
     
  12. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    They may have to oust their present government to do it.
     
  13. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Don't they vote in September?
     
  14. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    Greece didn't go far enough with reforms and austerity programs and will be back to ask for another bailout in a short time, perhaps 6 months.
     
  15. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    I disagree. They should tell the French and Germans to go f*ck themselves. Only an imbecile would consign an entire generation to debt ridden oblivion. It estimated under austerity it will take Greece 15 years to begin to grow again.

    Much better to leave the Euro altogether and return to their own currency.

    Take a cue from Iceland - they told the banks to go f*ck themselves and are now growing their economy again :)
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2011
  16. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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  17. Me-Ki-Gal Banned Banned

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    Interesting . My thought is to create something the rest of the world needs . Sustainable something . Things that supply steady income . Also for the country as a whole not to give up ownership . It be like the power company here in Montana . First off I have always thought if I could own and maintain a hydo dam life would be all sowed up financially. The Idea even came before I met and old man that supplied the town of Willits California with all it's power . Anyway Montana Power " Dumb shits " Sold the Dams as they thought they just are not making that much money . I thought " What the shit is the matter with the boards decision here " So what happens " Power spikes the new owners rake it with big fat rakes . Montana powers second business faultures ( telecommunications , to much competition) blamo power is deregulated consumer gets hammered once again .
     
  18. Big Chiller Registered Senior Member

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    1,106
    Nirakar,


    Sorry for the personal question, but did you marry a Greek, or greatly admire Greeks?
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2011
  19. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

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    Well, they should ask Greece to declare itself bankrupt, and leave the EU then.

    The US has a debt of a little more than 100% of GDP.
    At the moment it is spending massive amounts on avoidable foreign wars.

    Greece's debt is 150% without this fatty layer.

    This is not a solution, it's a stopgap.

    Yes, Greece is culpable.
    But is it any more culpable than the banks of richer countries which lent it money, believing that growth would take care of future payments on loans which far outstripped its current capacity.
    Should a country which has long been poor have been fiscally smarter than its more experienced brothers?

    In a bubble, everyone believes that the good times will last forever.
    "This time it's different".
    It's always different until the crash.
    It is global hysteria.

    The Greek retirement age is a problem.
    It will rise to 63 by 2015, while Germany's is 67.
    The life expectancy in Greece is higher than that in Germany.
    Plus, it's a far prettier country, with a less embarrasing history.
    I can see how that would be annoying to Germans who are picking up a large proportion of the tab.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2011
  20. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

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    Who doesn't admire the Greeks?
     

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