Why we abandoned space exploration in favor of dwelling in dark ages?

Discussion in 'Science & Society' started by Plazma Inferno!, Dec 4, 2015.

  1. brucep Valued Senior Member

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    Exactly. The idea that this world of humans would actually do something like that is a real stretch. I'm not talking about the work that altruists do to help those being ravaged by hunger. I'm talking about humans making sure everybody gets to eat. Never happen. If we wanted to we could do both. Fund scientific projects and feed the world. The fundamental human sociopathy doesn't have much respect for altruists and ideas that would decrease the weight of their purse. Fundamental sociopathy. LOL. Bob calls them the 'bald heads'.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2016
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  3. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Yep. Cancelling one war would result in enough money to make several manned trips to Mars, for example. Or to build a cycler.
     
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  5. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    We maybe in somewhat of an hiatus at this time, due to what I call those two horrible variables of economics and politics. But politics and economics are forever changing, sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worse.
    Irrespective of the "lifeboat" scenario, in time we will go back to the Moon, and men will be sent to Mars, and even further afield.
    Progress, science , innovation, and curiosity will not be stopped.
    And the easiest way to hurry this continued exploration of space along is as a united effort.
     
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  7. brucep Valued Senior Member

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    The bald heads are trouncing us at this time in history. For example the Walton family could feed the world. Instead they line the bank walls with gold, pay about 50% of a livable wage, and push write ups to whatever they can get away with. Bottom line economic philosophy. That's the one where you get to rip off your employees and customers while getting to blame it on stock holders. Fairness is a long forgotten component.
     
  8. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    6 to 8 million people die annually from the consequences of disasters and water-related diseases.

    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...9gP6l8fyNp23VDWBewWrtg&bvm=bv.114733917,d.eWE
     
  9. Oystein Registered Senior Member

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    Why do you care? You've already stated that you don't give to charities. And I don't think you live (Florida) where you could donate your time to help those people.
     
  10. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    You have stated this opinion several times before and I have always fully agreed with you, but noted that it is true (perhaps more so)* even if Mars did not exist. (More bang per buck when the challenge is closer, not when ever 200 or so days on the other side of the sun from Earth.)

    *No reason to think that funds spent on effort of settling a colony on Mars would give greater return than doing that on Moon. Also we could build a permanent colony under the sea on the continental shelf for additional and different challenges. - The total cost of doing both of these would cost less than a colony on Mars would plus being more useful to humans on Earth. Both would advance science as they are technologically challenging.

    With continued global warming the amount of dry land is decreasing, especially the shore line land where many cities are, while the global population is increasing. Knowing how to settle on the increasing amount of continental shelf may be very useful.

    It is an unfounded and false article of faith with you that man must go to Mars or progress stagnates.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2016
  11. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    I most totally disagree with that.
    Man going to Mars is just a necessary step in that progress:
    And given time, it will happen. Given time, all that is allowed by the laws of physics and GR are most probably going to occur. Given time.
     
  12. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    That is silly - effectively claiming man could not progress if Mars did not exist!
     
  13. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Don't be silly. It is effectively claiming, as you well know, that Mars is there so is a necessary step in our progress and learning.
    Who knows, Perhaps life on Earth was instigated from Mars?
     
  14. brucep Valued Senior Member

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    Cancelling one war ....... LOL. The neocons wanted to conduct two at the same time. Rumsfeld was a gargantuan crank. Like all cranks he thought he already knew it all and ignored those with any scholarship. IE: military leadership. A clueless strategist.
     
  15. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    We could certainly progress without going to Mars. But doing so would be akin to exploring the world and never going to the Americas.
     
  16. Waiter_2001 Registered Senior Member

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    • Please post on-topic.
    Wow! America now appears, to me, as large as when I first visited it. It's HUGE! Bigger than me or any one person.
     
  17. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    Very unlikely. With high probability it orignated in the sea - with one strand (the deep sea vent life forms) quite different from the others.

    There is a great deal of sea life we know little or nothing about. The Deep Challenger found 68 new forms and was the second (after a 52 year delay) to go below 10,000 meters. Exploring the ocean is every bit as challenging as going to Mars and much more likely to teach us more about what life can do - perhaps some of these creatures have learned how to prevent cancer.

    We don't spend our funds wisely - Mars is very unlikely to tell us much of use to mankind. The vast spectrum of sea life, mostly neglected, very probably could.
    No. "exploring the world" includes all its surface and I say we are neglecting 2/3 of it - the oceans and the life there in.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2016
  18. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Probably, but nothing can be ruled out, and considering Mars once probably had vast amounts of surface water, and we do get meteorites from Mars.......

    Great stuff! I certainly wish that more was also being done to explore some of the Oceans on Earth, just as I wish more was being done in space exploration.

    Nothing should be neglected, but please don't understate the value that continued robotic missions and manned missions beyond Earth orbit bring.
     
  19. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    I certainly don't. I strongly support first part of that; but in my opinion, AI in robots is the ONLY reasonable way to explore other planets. Every tiny item sent does not need to be "man rated" so cost of going there without men is at least 80% less than with men. Your first AI robot mission can fail so you send its duplicate and still pay less than half the cost of sending men once!

    Part of the savings is that robots don't need to eat or shit - lots of extra weight and complexity eliminated. (Getting out of and back into your space suit to do those things several times each day.)

    The shielding mass of robots is very much less than for a man as only a fraction of their volume needs any shielding at all. Robots can be much more resistant to cosmic rays. Even a bad solar flare can kill men on Mar's surface. A strong solar flare probably will not hit the surface of Mars, but why play "Russian Roulette" with their lives? The Earth's magnetic field deflects the solar flare's high energy particles around the Earth and only when the moon passes thru the tail of the very distored field would it not offer some protection to men on the Moon. Also men on the moon, can work out side their shelter mainly during the 14 days of night when the mass of the moon is shielding them, 100%, from solar flares.

    If we desire an “off Earth* survival life-boat” for human kind, build it on the moon, where two way communication delays are seconds, not variable and long (up to 33 hours). It will take decades and many (more than 100 I would guess) supply /replacement part trips to make a self-sustaining life boat with a genetically stable population size (at least a few dozen fertile women and a cryojug of sperm for the first two decade while they raise their own, born there, males for born their, born there daughters).

    * A near by gamma ray burster could sterilize the Earth's surface but a slightly buoyant, self supporting, colony moored to the continental shelf floor but 100m below the surface would survive. Making that colony would be a great technology developer and its cost would be less than 1% of making that life boat on Mars.

    SUMMARY: Lets use our claimed intelligence, and not go off on "glory missions" with men.

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    Last edited: Feb 21, 2016
  20. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Robots are indispensible in exploring the solar system and beyond, but boots on the ground will always follow and has distinct advantages.

    Although the "life boat"scenario is an important aspect of inter-planetary and stellar exploration, it is just one reason.....Other reasons also exist such as knowledge, curiosity and the inevitable need to go where no man has gone before. Simply because its there.


    Glory missions as you put it, is part of who and what we are, although I prefer the less derisive term curiosity missions. Captain James Cook and Chrissy Columbus were similarly involved.
    As I keep telling you, given time, most of what real men are only dreaming of now, will happen for a variety of reasons.
     
  21. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Space exploration is obviously the most dangerous and most epic adventure that mankind has ever undertaken.
    Besides the preservation of humanity, many many other questions that humanity has asked since we climbed down out of the trees, such as "are we alone" and making contact with whatever/whoever is out there, perhaps finding out why we are here, how we are here and who are we? could be answered.
    Who could really not understand the importance of such questions?
    It is without doubt, the most important journey mankind has ever embarked on, and although we appear to be in somewhat of an hiatus at this time, the adventure will certainly happen as long as we are able to avoid any catastrophic civilisation ending event.
    Fraught with danger, extremely difficult, not as yet knowing how we will achieve this adventure, is all certainly true.
    We also at one time, believed flying was for the birds, until the Wright Brothers in a plywood and string apparatus showed us it wasn't.....we [some of us] were certain we would never reach the Moon, but we finally achieved that also in no more then a tin can.
    Time and the inevitable progress and technical advancement of mankind will assure it will happen....in time.
     
  22. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    No not every dream comes true. And I keep telling you we are not spending our exploration funds wisely. Lets find out what life in the ocean has to offer with them. For exanple,
    Ecteinascidin 743 is found in the sea in trace amounts
     
  23. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Dreams of the future exploration of space is just a part of progress and I do also support all aspects of explorations of our Oceans, as I have said, but not at the expense of other areas of science like space exploration.
     

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