Why the Lover Whispers Sweet Nothings

Discussion in 'Human Science' started by gendanken, Jun 3, 2004.

  1. water the sea Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,442
    Gendanken,

    It's an "I just can't help it" way of reasoning ...
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. John Connellan Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,636
    I think, if u'll remeber, I had a thing about beauty and for some reason u had a thing about intelligence and hijacked (where the thread was going) with it.

    Because u said u were in love. And believed it.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    Love is just another physical thing however which I believe can easily be replaced after some time. That time of course depends on the person and also on surrounding possible mates.

    Gendanken is right. What she said she might do to me in her post, I would call love

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    The way I interpreted was a snide joke too u know. It was actually funnier as well IMO

    We all have the opportunity to get over it. If the "love" of your life died and u died a couple of weeks later then that you will 'never' get over him/her. I am not disputing that for christsake!

    Not necessarily IMO

    I wasn't patronising. I am actually falling in love with u (sorry Rosa

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    )

    Oh no, not cats again. U have been reading way too many of our (me+Rosa) posts!
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. John Connellan Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,636
    I would love to fuck Gendanken and then come back here to the forums and tell every guy I FUCKED GENDANKEN!!!!!

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. water the sea Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,442
    While I agree with that, this

    is a little harsh, but to the point. In order to remain sane within a society, certain attitudes, values, actions etc. must be accepted and taken.
    The strive for the sanity of the Self is a display of the preservation instinct, on which both the individual (the "carrier" of this self) as well as society (made of these "carriers of selves") inter-depend.
     
  8. water the sea Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,442
    On topic:

    1.
    Let's look at a poem by W.B. Yeats:


    Never Give all the Heart


    Never give all the heart, for love
    Will hardly seem worth thinking of
    To passionate women if it seem
    Certain, and they never dream
    That it fades out from kiss to kiss;
    For everything that's lovely is
    But a brief, dreamy, kind delight.
    O never give the heart outright,
    For they, for all smooth lips can say,
    Have given their hearts up to the play.
    And who could play it well enough
    If deaf and dumb and blind with love?
    He that made this knows all the cost,
    For he gave all his heart and lost.



    2.
    Here's a part of a post from some poster on some other thread:

    The issue was the fear of losing oneself if charmed by someone. The poster replied:





    3.
    Question: Why the fear of "losing oneself in love"?

    Both the poem and the quote imply a specific understanding of terms "love" and "self".

    I state that the difference between the sickly/hopelessly romantic lover on ne hand, and the true lover on the other can be described as the difference between the dilettante and the master.

    Both the dilettante and the master can produce artifacts that are liked, respected, valued, cherished. On the surface, what they do may look very similar.

    But the important difference is this:

    The dilettante puts all his self into his work. By working, he knows that he is diminishing himself somehow. The dilettant is unable to make a distance between himself and his work. The dilettant thinks that if his work is great/sucks, he is great/sucks.

    The master puts his skill into his work. By working, he is employing his skills. The master is always able to distinguish between himself and his work. The master thinks that if his work is great/sucks, his skills are great/suck.


    It seems that by nature, all humans are dilettants, at least at first. In order to become masters, we'd need to be able to distance ourselves from what we do, and value our selves regardless of our work, yet still value our work.
    For true love, we'd need to be able to distance ourselves from whom and how we love, and value our selves regardless of our love, yet still value our love.


    Mastery, however, is a tiresome, conscious, hard task. People want things the easiest way, so they go for the way of the dilettante.

    One way of compensating one's own dilettantism while remaining a dilettante is the general devaluation of love -- the thing we see in "popular culture", and right here in this thread by a certain male poster.
     
  9. Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    22,207
    Hijacked is hardly the word I'd use, although it did get out of control. It was merely a question and had I known it would have caused such offence, I'd have asked it earlier.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    Hmmm... I'm loved and I love. That's what it comes down to. It's not a matter of plucking the petals off a daisy and begging he loves me... he loves me not.. What I was trying to get across to you John, and which you fail to realise is that when you love and are loved in return, the lover does not need to 'whisper sweet nothings' because such feelings and words never need to be said. They are known and felt. There's a difference. There's no fervent whispers of 'I wuv youuuu baby'. That's only said to annoy.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    That's where we differ. It can't be replaced. You may come to love another, but the feelings felt for the one that is lost can never be replaced. It will always be there in you. And don't confuse love and lust. Lust can always be felt and found. I don't think love can.

    Heh... refer to above about lust.

    That's not what I meant. But never mind.

    Mmm hmmm... And I wasn't patronising about what I said either you lovesick fool.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    No actually. That was just an example.
     
  10. John Connellan Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,636
    Sorry! But I did say that I really hate when some people (not presuming u) start talking about intelligence whenever I say I go for beautiful women

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    Well I guess I am either ultimately right in my theory or I have never experienced the true deep love u talk of yet

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    Maybe u can help me there.

    *Godamit John, stop flirting like this with girls across the internet. She's got a fuckin partner now get over it*

    ahem.

    Aaannyywwaaay........

    Pretty co-incidental eh?!
     
  11. thefountainhed Fully Realized Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,076
    Gendanken:


    Late, but oh well...


    Will the response always be the same amongst said victims when the two words are uttered? If not, perhaps that is something you out to look into. This is because whereas the abused victim attempts to hide their reaction or obscure to the subconscious, for the lovers, it is at the conscious fore, and thus ‘always’.

    “Sometimes a complex will become associated with certain words which, although seemingly neutral and unrelated, are in fact linked to an underlying disturbance. Moreover, sometimes a person will draw attention to an underlying emotional problem by using or repeating certain words or phrases which, when linked together, hint at its existence.”- from his Archetypes
    Your basis.

    This block only makes sense in the scenario that his love is not reciprocated (a disease), and that his reaction, is dread and loneliness. But your basis talks of these associations as a way to subconsciously draw attention to their disease and not a way to deal with the disease.

    Thus, if whispering sweet nothings serves to “chill” the sadness inside the whisperer and not to gain the affection of the person being whispered to, then I believe the analogy does not quite work. In your presentation, the hopeless romantic is appeasing himself by misrepresenting to himself; in Jung’s presentation, the hopeless romantic would utter to gain the attention and perhaps affection of his wanted lover.

    I have to disagree. I think a more graphical representation most likely devoid of speech would be a better opiate on the self—fantasies.

    ‘sweet nothings’ serve to act more on the receiver.
     
  12. Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    22,207
    Mmmm hmmm. So you have. I'd ask why but I do not wish to see another ranting session like last time.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    In reality who knows. You may or may not. Some do and some do not. I see it in the eyes of my other half each time I look at him. I've seen it when I looked at my Grandparents long ago when they were still alive. I see it in my parents still... just in the way they look at each other. I saw it when I was at my uncle's bedside as he died. What he and my aunt felt for each other, well those last few moments are still hard for me to think about but the looks in both their faces during those last minutes. Suffice to say that when he died, the last thing he saw was my aunt as she pressed her nose to his and stared into his eyes.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    ...Well nevermind, still makes me teary.

    So when's the wedding? Oh and I hope you don't mind that I have 18 kids and they're all looking for a Daddy?

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    In hindsight, yes I guess you could say it is. But it seriously was just an example. After all, Pepe Lepew always chased the cats whom he thought were skunks...
     
  13. gendanken Ruler of All the Lands Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,779
    Blahthor:
    None of your godamned business.
    Now walk out or get punched out, you've done enough here.

    John:
    Nice.
    Real nice.

    Funny that in the midst of the cute chitchat and your clever use of 'u' for 'you' you've failed to realize that your betters already know you're an idiot.
    You fail to realize that your motive for being here, milking and milking these two girls with allusions, is louder than your stupidity.
    You fail to realize that this latest allusion is your attempt to catch my attention and perhaps ensnare another 'butterfly' in your net, the kind of net little boys use in the summertime to catch flies.

    See, shit like this:
    and this:
    ...is what makes humans of your caliber so fucking disgusting, yet eaiser to deal with. Incredibly easy- almost like hanging a baby up by its diaper.

    I know you little boy, I know what you're doing here.


    Bells:
    Guano.

    The same thing you feel for your hand when its holding a vibrator, is the same thing you feel for the human replaceable on your bedsheets when horny.
    Love is usually a pretty lie for 'lust'- depending.
    You're far too simple, my dear.

    Rosa:

    Dilettante vs. Masters.

    "The dilettant thinks that if his work is great/sucks, he is great/sucks.
    The master thinks that if his work is great/sucks, his skills are great/suck."

    Nice. Which is why balance (of Self and Other) is key, attainable only if fusion between selves is external and worn like a shield guarding those treasures inside. Lines must never be blurred and always respected- it keeps those treasures reaped during solitude as fresh as the day they were made, and when the love has cooled each walks away as rich as the day they both met so long as those lovelies inside, the Majestic I's, remain intact in the courtship.

    There is a diamond the size of a 100,000 earths presumably at the core of Jupiter (from the compression of its heaviest element, carbon, by the loads of ammonia, mehtane and helium gases pushing down from above)- this would be Jupiter's Majestic I.
    Losing a treasure that beautiful to a You is heart wrenching, if not infuriating.
    This is why the losing of 'self' is contentious in this game we call 'love'.

    Fountainhed:
    Drawing attention is the dealing with it.

    We are looking down at the Romantic when his object won't yield. We have our microscopes looking into his behaviour, wondering why he does what he does:

    " This type has a "romance" that bears the sting of martyrdom- he sacrifices for his lover, he agonizes from a distance that is made all the more desirable for him by negation"

    And why does he burn so?

    "With distance comes enchantment. " He becomes something like a young boy who's just exploded into his puberty:

    "With imagery and craving that corrupted down to wishful thinking- this served to tame his lust. Poetry.
    No longer could the pubcent boy fullfill his task as an animal, so now we find he has resorted to the potery of romance that he dresses his objects with.
    Distance denies the possession. This agitates the body. Then tortures the mind."


    And when a mind is tortured, the pshyce grasps in its Will to Sanity.
    No, in Jung's representation the psyche is either appeased or disturbed with each association and the redemption or destruction of self is a consequence of either his object yielding or refusing his passions.

    Redemption if his object yields.
    Destruction if it does not.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2004
  14. water the sea Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,442
    Gendanken,

    Which directly brings me to think of true love as *communication*. The thing that exists inbetween. Dialogue. Language. Not the person: their actions.

    Which also brings me to Grice and the maxime of cooperation. In the sickly love, there is no cooperation. In true love, cooperation is the key. Possible only if both parties are concentrating on the communication, and not on leeching on the other person's personality.


    Oh, as for the sickly lover: I'll try to come up with some Minnesang stuff, as it is *the* source for the idea of romantic love. Awfully nice twists to it.
     
  15. gendanken Ruler of All the Lands Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,779
    99 words.

    Scholarly references galore ....and all of it will pass like wind between that man's ears, Rosa.
    Vermin- I think its dawning on you, yes?

    Shells will crack beneath stilletos before this thread is out.
     
  16. Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    22,207
    It is easy to mistake feelings of lust for love. Very easy. Hence why people 'fall in and out of love' so easily. When you see people swapping partners like one changes the sheets on the bed and claim deep love for each one, that is lust. What I was talking about are the feelings that go beyond love. Where it makes love feel outdated and false in so many ways. In all seriousness, when it gets to that stage, sex doesn't even come into it. It's just one small part of the whole.

    And if you have such feelings for your hand as it holds a vibrator... Just remember that talking to your hand as you would to a partner could result in a prolonged stay at a special 'speshuaaal' hospital.

    Ah but to be simple is sometimes best Gendanken.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  17. Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    22,207
    That's a very good point and quite true. Where you see people who claim love and you cannot see either of their personalities, I don't see that as love. That's a blending of self with another where each distinct person disappears to be replaced with a bastardised version of the other. That is not only disturbing, but will usually end in tears, as at some point, each individual starts wishing for a distinct personality and begins to look elsewhere.

    Communication is always the key. But in love, it goes beyond the normal means of communication. As you so aptly said Rosa, actions can speak much louder than words. Saying the mundane words of love is one thing. It becomes a whole different ball game when the feelings behind those words can be transmitted without a single word spoken or a single touch exchanged. But such a thing can only happen when each person becomes true to themselves and does not merge with the other's personality to the point where one becomes lost.
     
  18. water the sea Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,442
    Hathor and John, a song for you two, to keep it with you at all times, and always ask yourself if it really *isn't* true for you:

    "Stupid Girl", by Garbage, for you, it's "Stupid Boy":


    You pretend you’re high
    You pretend you’re bored
    You pretend you’re anything
    Just to be adored
    And what you need
    Is what you get

    Don’t believe in fear
    Don’t believe in faith
    Don’t believe in anything
    That you can’t break

    You stupid boy
    You stupid boy
    All you had you wasted
    All you had you wasted

    What drives you on what drives you on
    Can drive you mad can drive you mad
    A million lies to sell yourself
    Is all you ever had

    Don’t believe in love
    Don’t believe in hate
    Don’t believe in anything
    That you can’t waste

    You stupid boy
    You stupid boy
    Can’t believe you fake it
    Can’t believe you fake it

    Don’t believe in fear
    Don’t believe in pain
    Don’t believe in anyone
    That you can’t tame

    You stupid boy
    You stupid boy
    All you had you wasted
    All you had you wasted

    You stupid boy
    You stupid boy
    Can’t believe you fake it
    Can’t believe you fake it

    You stupid boy
     
  19. water the sea Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,442
    John,


    /.../

    Thank you, John, for your show. You have now successfully sabotaged yourself. You have now managed to deprive yourself from being loved.

    Ask me to at least cry for you, beacuse I cannot bring myself to it.
     
  20. John Connellan Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,636
    I HAVE no betters Gendanken.

    Really? I thought those 2 girls were milking me

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    Sorry girls but I tend to speak the same 'language' as those I am talking to and Gendankens language and viewpoints are often like this. No offence intended to Rosa or Bells

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    U have failed to realise that I was making YOU realise that this was an attempt to catch the attention of the great gendanken. A bigger catch would have been Xev but I can't find her (around here at least).

    Very good!
     
  21. John Connellan Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,636
    I just wanna stoop to Gendankens level once in a while. Can u forgive me?
     
  22. Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    22,207
    True. You've taken the gold medal in the idiot stakes. I don't think anyone here is better at being an idiot than you Johnboy. Well done son!

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    Don't flatter yourself to such an extent Johnboy. The only animal I would ever milk would be a cow to get milk for my morning coffee.

    Unfortunately for you John, it is not me you should be apologising to because it was not I who ever gave a shit. I thought you were an arse before and that opinion still stands. However where before I thought you were just an arse, now I think you're a dumbarse.
     
  23. water the sea Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,442
    John,


    I don't accept excuses. You do as you see fit. If it means stooping down to someone's level, fine. But it is *you* who is doing it. Those shitty words came out of *your* mouth.


    With this you have proclaimed that you are one characterless twit. All the smilies in the world can't help you.

    Have you no inner values?! Where is your Self?!


    What is it that you want from me? Would you enjoy to see if I was hurt? Do you think that because I was nice to you that you can now fuck me in the head?


    I shall leave you to Heaven, and to those thorns that in your bossom lodge to prick and sting you.
     

Share This Page