Why the Church needs more like Sister Margaret McBride - The Excommunicated Nun

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Bells, Jun 10, 2010.

  1. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

    this is just another example of how religion is polluting health care. to the religious ensuring a care giver gets to force their religious beliefs on others is more important than people being able to make their own choices for their medical care. we see this too with pharmacists refusing to fill birth control prescriptions
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  3. CopterNadle Banned Banned

    yes you're absolutely right there

    Because Health Really Matters
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  5. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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  7. Votorx Still egotistic... Valued Senior Member

    If she said that the abortion was a morally good and allowable act according to church teachings then I don't blame then for excommunicating her. Not only is that a downright lie, but what kind of idiot would believe the church would condone abortion under any circumstance? She's representing the church and doing a poor job at it.

    Bear in mind that I didn't say I disagree with her actions...
  8. Bells Staff Member

    She didn't say anything about it being morally good or allowable. She gave the patient her options and told her the truth. She allowed the patient to decide to choose her own life instead of that of her first trimester pregnancy that was killing her and she approved the procedure based on what she knew.. that the woman would have died without the procedure and the patient chose to live.

    The Catholic Church has deemed that her actions were deplorable because she approved the abortion that saved the mother's life. The Catholic Church, via the Vatican, does mumble words about the mother's health. So what is the truth? Does the Vatican now advocate the death of the mother and fetus in cases such as this? Does the Vatican advocate letting women haemorrage and go septic instead of doing a D & C and removing the miscarrying first trimester fetus?
  9. visceral_instinct Monkey see, monkey denigrate Valued Senior Member

    That's scary. I commend that nun for doing the right thing. I pray if I ever have an accident, the ambulance doesn't take me to a Catholic hospital. Not that I'm likely to be pregnant, but fuck. They only care about your uterus.

    I don't think people who hold views like that should be working in healthcare at all. Call me a fascist, but someone who would withhold an abortion or refuse to give out birth control has no place in healthcare. Those professionals like that are there to treat people not force their muddle-headed excuse for 'morality' on people.
  10. Votorx Still egotistic... Valued Senior Member

    I basically copy and pasted from your original post where it stated, almost word for word, that she said an abortion was a morally good and allowable act as according to the church teachings.

    If that is in fact wrong then I would implore you to change your original post.
  11. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

    Disgusting that they excommicated her for that; in a situation of risk, the maternal decision is the only one that matters.
  12. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

    The quote is "the abortion": as in in this case.
  13. Votorx Still egotistic... Valued Senior Member

    Whether its this, that, his, her, or its abortion doesn't matter. Point of the matter is, the church would not condone abortion under any circumstance.

    You guy need to stop trying so hard to find fault in what I wrote. My post was not that significant. I think its time to move on.
  14. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

    Possibly so. I guess they wouldn't condone under any circumstances. Or would they? I actually don't know. Never bothered to check.
  15. Bells Staff Member

    What makes me shudder in anger is the fact that women miscarrying in their first trimester and the heartbeat hasn't stopped yet are being denied treatment. There is no chance for the fetus' survival. Zero chance. The woman's bleeding or haemorraging, going septic, some with a limb coming out of the uterus and they are refused treatment because the fetal heartbeat hasn't stopped yet.. When it is obviously the beginings of a miscarriage. I find that horrific. Having seen women miscarry in front of me, to not provide them with essentail medical treatment because of Catholic dogma is disgusting.

    It endangers the mother's health. And, ironically, it can damage her chances of having more children later on.

    There used to be a time where it would be codoned if it was certain that th emother would die without one due to medical reasons. It seems there has been a quiet shift of policy.

    The nun's actions were standard and exactly what she should have done. She presented the patient with all of her options and the patient chose to live for her other 4 children and terminate the pregnancy that was slowly causing her body to kill her. To excommunicate her and all staff involved (as well as the family) in the decision making process and proceedure as well, defies belief.. But a priest can rape a child and he gets nothing at all...
  16. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

    Don't worry, there are more of her:

    In a study of sterilization and abortion practices in Texas Catholic hospitals compiled from hospital discharge data for the State of Texas, whistleblowing Catholic medical researchers found that Catholic hospitals reported at least 9,684 cases of sterilizations and 39 legally induced abortions from 2000-2003.
  17. visceral_instinct Monkey see, monkey denigrate Valued Senior Member

    Thank fuck for that..
  18. John99 Banned Banned

    Do any religions support abortion? I am not aware of any myself. Even according to Buddhism:

    It is against Canon Law and also a mortal sin. Once proven they are all excommunicated because they broke Canon law and a law in their respective country (usually). I just learned this myself from a google search and not sure what 'Canon Law' entails. Not looking to excite people here and not saying i agree with this particular case and dont really have any steadfast viewpoint on abortion but as i said according to every religion i am aware of abortion is not permitted.
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2010
  19. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    The Church condones abortion as the standard treatment of ectopic pregnancy, and always has.
  20. Giambattista sssssssssssssssssssssssss sssss Valued Senior Member

    The giving of the Law didn't stop with Moses, Jesus, or Paul. Nay, it continues to this very day!

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    Getting down to fundamentals seems to be very difficult for the Catholic Church.

    But what do I, a common mum-lizard know, being the mouthpiece of Satan and all?
  21. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    The Update

    Some months later, an update. Nicholas Kristof spells it out:

    The National Catholic Reporter newspaper put it best: "Just days before Christians celebrated Christmas, Jesus got evicted."

    Yet the person giving Jesus the heave-ho in this case was not a Bethlehem innkeeper. Nor was it an overzealous mayor angering conservatives by pulling down Christmas decorations. Rather, it was a prominent bishop, Thomas Olmsted, stripping St. Joseph's Hospital and Medical Center in Phoenix of its affiliation with the Roman Catholic diocese.

    The hospital's offense? It had terminated a pregnancy to save the life of the mother. The hospital says the 27-year-old woman, a mother of four children, would almost certainly have died otherwise.

    Bishop Olmsted initially excommunicated a nun, Sister Margaret McBride, who had been on the hospital's ethics committee and had approved of the decision. That seems to have been a failed attempt to bully the hospital into submission, but it refused to cave and continues to employ Sister Margaret. Now the bishop, in effect, is excommunicating the entire hospital — all because it saved a woman's life.

    Make no mistake: This clash of values is a bellwether of a profound disagreement that is playing out at many Catholic hospitals around the country ....

    An ideological battle over health care is playing out in the Catholic hierarchy. St. Charles Medical Center, in Bend, Oregon, also lost its relationship with the Catholic church after bishops objected to the hospital's performance of tubal ligations upon request. And in Texas, Kristof writes, the bishop in Tyler has influenced two hospitals to stop performing tubal ligations.

    Meanwhile, some doctors at Catholic affiliated hospitals complain, according to Kristof, "that sometimes they are forced by church doctrine to provide substandard care to women with miscarriages or ectopic pregnancies in ways that can leave the women infertile or even endanger their lives".

    The thought that keeps nagging at me is this: If you look at Bishop Olmsted and Sister Margaret as the protagonists in this battle, one of them truly seems to me to have emulated the life of Jesus. And it's not the bishop, who has spent much of his adult life as a Vatican bureaucrat climbing the career ladder. It's Sister Margaret, who like so many nuns has toiled for decades on behalf of the neediest and sickest among us.

    Then along comes Bishop Olmsted to excommunicate the Christ-like figure in our story. If Jesus were around today, he might sue the bishop for defamation.

    Yet in this battle, it's fascinating how much support St. Joseph's Hospital has had and how firmly it has pushed back — in effect, pounding 95 theses on the bishop's door. The hospital backed up Sister Margaret, and it rejected the bishop's demand that it never again terminate a pregnancy to save the life of a mother.

    "St. Joseph's will continue through our words and deeds to carry out the healing ministry of Jesus," said Linda Hunt, the hospital president. "Our operations, policies, and procedures will not change." The Catholic Health Association of the United States, a network of Catholic hospitals around the country, stood squarely behind St. Joseph's.

    Anne Rice, the author and a commentator on Catholicism, sees a potential turning point. "St. Joseph's refusal to knuckle under to the bishop is huge," she told me, adding: "Maybe rank-and-file Catholics are finally talking back to a hierarchy that long ago deserted them."

    And, hey, anytime you can go from Nicholas Kristof to Anne Rice, you can call it a good day.

    Er ... um ... oh, right.

    Yeah. That's the news, and I am ... uh ... anyway, yeah.


    Kristof, Nicholas. "Tussling Over Jesus". The New York Times. January 27, 2011. NYTimes.com. January 28, 2011. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/27/opinion/27kristof.html
  22. SilentLi89 Registered Senior Member

    My mother grew up in a Catholic School and she said that the fetus' life was/is always valued over the mother's even if the fetus can't survive without her. I was taught the same thing when I went to a small religious school too. I don't know why though. :shrug: Seems kind of counter productive.
  23. Parmenides Registered Senior Member

    The idiocy of the Catholic Church in these matters is fairly obvious, not just from this case but everywhere from the absurdities in its moral teachings on sexual ethics (condemning masturbation and homosexual sex as horrible sins yet protecting pedophile priests to the point of shuttling them around parishes giving them more opportunities to abuse) to the ban on contraception in an overpopulated and resource depleted world.

    What is concerning is that important decisions about a patient's medical treatment are being made in these institutions which are not made according to the best interests of the patient (i.e. saving the mother's life), but according to the ethical beliefs of a religion which are not shared by all patients and apparently the whim of a non-medically qualified Church official.

    Medical decisions need to have an ethical component but it is very worrying that the quality and professionalism of a patient's care in the Catholic medical system is being undermined because of questionable religious beliefs. I think the Catholic healthcare system needs to be more carefully regulated so religious beliefs don't over-ride a doctor's paramount duty to their patient and to do the best to ensure the health of their patient. It is totally unacceptable that any ecclesial official's view or decree should over-ride that of the health-care professional on the ground.

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